I know this has been somewhat debated, but I have a very specific question that I'd like opinions on please :)
Here's the situation: We have a Lvl7 Druid, in Earth Elemental form. He is Earthgliding through a natural and worked stone dungeon. I have ruled that he cannot see through any thickness of stone, although he is able to navigate somewhat as long as he's careful about how he moves.
I have also ruled (and this is NOT up for debate in this thread please) that if he is in a "wall" square - that is a square which is immediately adjacent to an air space - then he can see out of that square and into the room.
My question is this: He has 5' reach. Can he attack people standing next to the wall? If so, can they attack him back?
Here's my thinking, and it goes against pretty much everything that I've seen on the boards here so far, which is why I'm posting for comments.
He can attack adjacent squares. Adjacent squares can attack him. Both at no penalty whatsoever.
Here's my reasoning:
It's more or less assumed that the "Space" entry in the Space, Reach and Threatened Area chart is the complete area the creature takes up; a Space of 5ft, combined with a Reach of 5ft (the default for Small and Medium creatures) means that there's really a 15-foot wide area that the character can affect, and that's explained (more or less) by saying that the character either
a) Takes up the entirety of the 5ft square it's in or
b) Is moving around such that over the course of a round it is, at some point, in every point of that square.
In either case, there is no room for anything else in that square; therefore there is nothing between the Earthgliding creature and the creature in the room.
Another consequence of this line of thinking is that the Druid (or Earth Elementals for that matter) are 100% discernable when they are at the surface of stone.
Does that sound reasonable to you folk?
No, actually it doesn't sound completely reasonable to me. Even if we assume that the druid weirdly oscillates all over his 5ft square, which we have to do for the sake of PF simplicity, while he is earth gliding, there CAN be something else where he is, namely earth and stone. (earth elementals don't displace the material they glide through) Since the earth and stone is also all over the square, an attacker can only hit the druid when he is at one specific end of the square, not all the time. How you want to represent that in your rules is up to you, but ignoring it is pretty weird I think.
I'd probably go as far as saying that the creature outside the wall doesn't get an attack at all, as long as the druid doesn't make a melee attack or maneuver that triggers an aoo. The way around it for the creature would be to ready an action for whenever the druid comes out of the wall to strike. Just my homerules of course.
Give the Druid improved cover! 4 AC and reflex saves, half concealment, or something similar.
Just give all the enemy casters move earth.
I'm not giving all the enemy casters Move Earth, that's the sort of "out of game" (i.e. metagame) thinking that just leads to bad feelings ("What do you mean they all just happen to have that specific spell, which no one memorises, like, ever..")
Also no attack at all would SUCK - it would make summoned Earth Elementals super cheesy. I'm sure the players would hate it if I did that to them!
I can see (esp since Earth Glide says that no tunnel is made) that there would be cover involved; however, the way cover works in melee means if the Druid/Elemental has cover from the thing it's attacking, the thing it's attacking has exactly the same cover from the Druid/Elemental. That's the other possibility I'm considering.
Noting the OP's viewing statement is not up for debate I would rule that the character is poking his head out of the wall to see and is reaching out from the wall to attack - perhaps he stuck his arm out first to feel air squares.
Using that visualisation as the starting point then improved cover seems reasonable. He can't be attacked whilst in the wall but has to stick part of himself out of the wall to see and attack.
The OP's proposed visualisation that the character fills the entire square doesn't work for me, neither does the concept of seeing into a solid wall or swinging a sword at a wall and hitting flesh.
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I can see (esp since Earth Glide says that no tunnel is made) that there would be cover involved; however, the way cover works in melee means if the Druid/Elemental has cover from the thing it's attacking, the thing it's attacking has exactly the same cover from the Druid/Elemental. That's the other possibility I'm considering.
That makes more sense to me. There's something in the way there, and if the druid/elemental can't see through stone it's going to get in his/her way, too.
If I'm reading the Incorporeal entry correctly, an Incorporeal creature can attack from inside an object. When it does so, the target of its attack has total concealment (50% miss chance) but after the attack resolves, and assuming the target did not have a readied action, the incorporeal creature has total cover and cannot be attacked.
Is that right?
If that's the case, an intelligent Incorporeal creature (or Earthglider, to extend the rules to that - which seems reasonable to me) can simply never be attacked ever, or at the very least have the entirety of the opposition "readied" as they should attack, move to someone else, attack again, and so on.
I know the standard response to "That seems a little overpowered" is "well you can use it too" but that doesn't make it any less overpowered! Getting constantly attacked by things that you can't attack back would be a Royal Pain In The Ass, IMO...
If I'm reading the Incorporeal entry correctly, an Incorporeal creature can attack from inside an object. When it does so, the target of its attack has total concealment (50% miss chance) but after the attack resolves, and assuming the target did not have a readied action, the incorporeal creature has total cover and cannot be attacked.
Is that right?
I don't think it is correct and I think you have hamstrung yourself with you starting position that a creature can look into an adjacent air space. If you accept the position that the creature cannot see through stone, but can pop their head out for a look then mechanically you are getting the same effect you originally proposed - creature's can see out into air and can be seen by to be in the wall by creature's in the room. You also get to use the cover rules.
Now for some scenarios
1. Druid is in the wall (creatures in room does not know) and attacks creature in a square without first having a look - Druid has full attack and creature in targetted square (if any) has total concealment.
2. Druid pops head out of wall to have a look then attacks. Assume the pop head out of wall is a stealthy move action to see if he is spotted and then attack is a standard action.
2a. Druid is not spotted and attacks from surprise
2b. Druid is spotted and roll for initiative
3. Druid is known to be in wall and is either full-attacking against total concealment or attacking after looking.
3a. Creatures are not flat footed and attack on initiative against partial cover
3b. Creatures have readied action to attack when Druid emerges at a specific point. If they guessed the correct square then they attack first against partial cover. If they guessed wrong they lose their attack.
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If I'm reading the Incorporeal entry correctly, an Incorporeal creature can attack from inside an object. When it does so, the target of its attack has total concealment (50% miss chance) but after the attack resolves, and assuming the target did not have a readied action, the incorporeal creature has total cover and cannot be attacked.
This is how I would resolve it.
You need to ready an attack if you want to hurt them.
Earth elementals are a #!@^& to fight.
If I'm reading the Incorporeal entry correctly, an Incorporeal creature can attack from inside an object. When it does so, the target of its attack has total concealment (50% miss chance) but after the attack resolves, and assuming the target did not have a readied action, the incorporeal creature has total cover and cannot be attacked.
Is that right?
If that's the case, an intelligent Incorporeal creature (or Earthglider, to extend the rules to that - which seems reasonable to me) can simply never be attacked ever, or at the very least have the entirety of the opposition "readied" as they should attack, move to someone else, attack again, and so on.
I know the standard response to "That seems a little overpowered" is "well you can use it too" but that doesn't make it any less overpowered! Getting constantly attacked by things that you can't attack back would be a Royal Pain In The Ass, IMO...
Yeah you get total cover. Your opponent also gets total concealment. Evem if your attack hits the AC, you still have 50%chance to hit nothing.
That is nothing nowhere near overpowered. It's not even in the same neighborhood as overpowered. Now if he had full BAB and tremorsense so he could ignore the concealmeant, that would be OP.