So, suppose a Druid of the Reincarnated archetype were to make a Phylactery and become a Lich.
What happens next?
I'd think that the body was merely destroyed, so instead of reincarnating, the Druid's body will be rebuilt by the Phylactery.
What if the Phylactery is destroyed?
This is where it gets a bit confusing. Destroying the Phylactery is meant to be the only way to truly kill a Lich, but when a Reincarnated Druid is killed they just reincarnate.
So, suppose a Druid of the Reincarnated archetype were to make a Phylactery and become a Lich.
What happens next?
I'd think that the body was merely destroyed, so instead of reincarnating, the Druid's body will be rebuilt by the Phylactery.
What if the Phylactery is destroyed?
This is where it gets a bit confusing. Destroying the Phylactery is meant to be the only way to truly kill a Lich, but when a Reincarnated Druid is killed they just reincarnate.
I am afraid the druid are out of luck. Becoming a Lich changes the type to undead.
As an undead he/she has this ability: "Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities."So the reincarnate ability stops affecting him.
But if the lich is killed and his phylactery destroyed he would stop being an undead and thus reincarnation would work again. That is if the lich is still a druid and his abilities still function.
Hmmmmm. I have a feeling Harald is correct.
Umbranus, what exactly gives you the idea that a lich ceases to be undead when both he and his phylactery are destroyed?
Also, what happens if the phylactery is destroyed but the Lich is not?
what exactly gives you the idea that a lich ceases to be undead when both he and his phylactery are destroyed?
Well, he'd be dead and thus not undead. But when a Lich is destroyed it could become a race between the Lich' rejuvenation and the Druidic reincarnation.
Once the druid becomes the Lich, he ceases to be able to be ressurected / reincarnated...
Well, yes. Not being dead, he can't be brought back to live as such. But once a Lich is destroyed, it ceases to be undead. And so could be returned to life, or returned to unlife.
Once the phylactery is destroyed, the Lich is also destroyed.
'fraid Not. A destroyed Phylactery merely means the Lich cannot Rejuvenate until it creates a new one.
there is no transition where the druid becomes alive again between the destruction of the phylactery and the destruction of the Lich...
Nor does there need to be. All that is required for the Reincarnation is that the Druid is dead.
Once the druid adopts the Lich template... they cease being a Druid... they would lose all powers from being a Druid... they would become undead... and never again be able to be reincarnated.
I wholeheartedly agree with this on principle, but it's not supported by the RAW. "A druid who ceases to revere nature, changes to a prohibited alignment, or teaches the Druidic language to a nondruid loses all spells and druid abilities". There's no mention of having to remain alive, or even needing to be alive to begin with.
Once the druid becomes the Lich, he ceases to be able to be ressurected / reincarnated...Well, yes. Not being dead, he can't be brought back to live as such. But once a Lich is destroyed, it ceases to be undead. And so could be returned to life, or returned to unlife.
Not really. When a Lich is destroyed, and the Phylactery has been destroyed as well, he doesn't become a dead human (or whatever he was before). He is simply an undead creature, who have been destroyed (which more or less implies ceasing to exist).
Nothing suggest, that he should revery to his former type or loose any template upon death or destruction.
When a Lich is destroyed, and the Phylactery has been destroyed as well, he doesn't become a dead human (or whatever he was before). He is simply an undead creature, who have been destroyed (which more or less implies ceasing to exist).
I must beg to differ. A dead Lich is very much a dead human (or whichever other creature). And it's also a dead undead creature. Neither of which is relevant as such - once dead, it's an object. Both an ex-lich, and an ex-parrot.
Nothing suggest, that he should revery to his former type or loose any template upon death or destruction.Nor does it need to. I give the example of the zombie:
- First it's a human. It's alive, and cannot be brought back to life as it isn't dead.
- Next, the human dies. It's now an object, without any type, template or class abilities. It could be reincarnated at this point, but instead...
- Someone turns the corpse into a Zombie. It's now an undead creature, and cannot be brought back to life unless it is destroyed first.
- And then, some kind soul "kills" the Zombie. It's now once again a corpse, an object.
And things are no different for the dead Lich.
Undead never die, they are destroyed instead.
The same goes for the one-living-creature-turned-zombie. When the zombie dies, you cannot use raise dead or reincarnate. It is the only thing that makes sense given the very specific line that undeads are immune to them.
Look at your chain of arguments. By that logic (dead creature loosing class abilities) the reincarnated druid ability never works, since he looses.
A corpse is treated as an object rather than a creature, yes. But that does mean, that it isn't a dead creature as well. The type of the creature does not change. Reincarnate specifically refers to the type of the dead creature upon which you cast the spell. Your human druid has stop existing, once you became an undead druid as a lich.
I would say someone who has willingly defied the natural order in such a profound way as to transform themselves into an undead abomination can be pretty safely considered to have "ceased to revere nature".
This.
All the reincarnated druid powers go away once he becomes a lich. Also, the spells and the wildshaping. In fact, because a Druid loses his spells if he becomes a lich, a knowledgeable GM might use this as a basis on which to say that Druids do not meet the prerequisites to craft a phylactery in the first place.
Rule:
Each lich must create its own phylactery by using the Craft Wondrous Item feat. The character must be able to cast spells and have a caster level of 11th or higher. The phylactery costs 120,000 gp to create and has a caster level equal to that of its creator at the time of creation.
By explicit rule, the 11th level Druid with CWI can technically craft a phylactery, and by explicit rule the phylactery is created before the final transformation into a lich, but a druid who did so would become an 11th level commoner.
Ok, thanks for the input guys.
This was mostly a thought experiment, since Reincarnated Druids are basically natural liches anyway :)
Most people think that a destroyed lich remains a destroyed undead creature, and thus can't be brought back by the spells that undead are unaffected by.
Some people noted that becoming a lich probably counts as "ceas[ing] to revere nature", so even if the reincarnate ability should work, he doesn't have it anymore!
Finally, as kantas pointed out, even if you disagree with the above two points, Reincarnate only protects you for one week. Actually, the druid ability is different to the spell, as the druid "may automatically reincarnate (as the spell) 1 day later". So it could only protect you from phylactery death for 1 day (if we allowed it at all).
Conclusion: the rules for Liches and Reinarnated Druids have at least 1, and possibly 3 points of anti-synergy.
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What is dead can never die...
stop trying to argue semantics to get your idea "proven" fact is undead in this game are destroyed. Fact is a lich is the antithesis of a druidic philosophy, and as such won't be a druid or at the min not have access to druid powers and spells. Fact is a lich says it can't be reincarnated. Guess what, that means it can't be reincarnated.
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Obviously, the Phylactery and the Reincarnation ability both create their own copy of the Lich Druid, who then work together and can both "double up" again, allowing them to create an army of Reincarnating Lich Druids, each with full druidic powers and zombie animal companions!
For the record, in the forgotten realms campaign there *is* a druid lich. . .
his name is lossarwyn
Just sayin,
JB
What druidic philosophy would allow a druid to embrace undeath and not lose his powers?
For the record, in the forgotten realms campaign there *is* a druid lich. . .
his name is lossarwyn
Just sayin,
JB
And according to James Jacobs here, not only can a druid become a lich, but they are actually making a template for druids of the Worldwound that have made the sacrifice into undeath in order to regain their lands.
Also, if I recall correctly, there's a vampire in Carrion Crown that is also a druid.
While undead are very much NOT a part of the natural world (they are part of the SUPERnatural world, and many of them have specific abilities that cause creatures of nature to balk or flee or the like, such as the wraith's unnatural aura)...
...druids can still be undead. Unless they're ghosts, they'll be neutral evil druids 99.9999994% of the time. A druid can certainly become a lich or a vampire. It's far more uncommon for an undead creature to start taking levels of druid AFTER it becomes a druid. Druids that are undead generally do not keep animal companions, and most have archetypes like blight druid that are more thematic fits for their undead state.
In addition, later this year, the Worldwound 64 page campaign setting book will present stats for the siabrae, an undead druid template somewhat akin in power to the lich template; siabraes are the result of the powerful druids of Sarkoris sacrificing themselves to try to prevent the demons of the Worldwound from completely destroying one of the most sacred sites of the Green Faith. More info on them later this year!
Now, whether or not you like it and want to change that, it's up to you. Don't think this is set-in-stone ammo to force you into allowing this in your games.
I could see lichdom working fairly easily with the blight druid archetype.
What druidic philosophy would allow a druid to embrace undeath and not lose his powers?
Undead are created by magic. Magic is a natural part of the golarion world. Like a dam is naturally created by a beaver (and is therefore a part of nature), undead are created by a natural component of nature, and is therefore also a part of nature.
Or
Divine magic comes from the gods. The gods are a natural part of the world (if the gods are not a part of the natural world, then how do some druids worship them and still mIntain their druid status?). If the gods allow undead to be created by use of divine magic, undead must be a part of nature.
Just throwing out ideas.