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Just trying to bang some ideas out.
When I think of my favorite female villains, they usually tend strongly towards Lawful Evil. Imperious, authoritative, supremely confident, and smart.
Cheliax is a country that runs on that kind of character.
But when thinking in terms of female diabolists, devil worshippers, and other villainous types that traffic with Hell, and trying to get into their head to find what motivates them or how they think from their point of view, I'm hitting a snag:
Hell is misogynist as hell.
Now I'm not saying that's wrong to portray Hell and its politics that way, considering that it's...well...evil. But it does present some problems when dealing with intelligent villainesses that skew heavily towards lawful.
This isn't as big a problem with the female-gendered Abyss, since largely villains heading there that know it don't tend to care. But for female villains looking for power or whatever else motivates them through infernal means, Hell doesn't seem to make as hard a sell as it could.
Beyond probably Dispater, the archdevils that would seem most appealing to young villainesses that want to be on top of their local power dynamic(be it a crime family, office of government, church, nation, empire, or world) are called Whore Queens. While there's something to be said for the WQ's of Hell taking that title meant as an insult and running further with it than their male counterparts expected, it still doesn't seem to fit what a lot of villainesses would look for in a fiendish patron. That is, when Tyrant Queen Alissandre, ruler of all the Forsaken Hemisphere, Enslaver of All, Keeper of Law, and Iron Fist of Hell's Will, publicly proclaims the glory of the archdevil whose worship has helped her succeed, it deflates it a bit when it's "Whore Queen Doloras".
What would Eiseth and company be called by worshippers either free from or purposefully working around/subverting the patriarchal nature of Hell?
There's also the matter of expectations of their afterlife. While naturally a lot of folks that make deals with devils for power simply expect to never die, there are a lot of savvier villains that know that sometimes it's better to invest in a nice bit of power and safety in the next life that'll inevitably find them.
For female villains though, especially those who have no interest in being subservient to a patriarchy, the appeal seems to drop off sharply, especially for those villains that have the gumption and arrogance to go all the way and vie for archdevilhood.
While Hell can just straight-up lie and assure them that "Sure, you go girl! There's a future for you on the other side!", smarter villains are going to do research and find out whether or not women that actually do make it and become full-fledged devils wind up stuck as a secretary to the male executive. Metaphorically speaking.
Just trying to get inside the head of some characters that do have to deal with these ideas. Who do the would-be tyrant-queens who flay any that would dare question their strength and right to rule because of their gender look up to? Who do the masterful negotiator/schemer LE female villains that can talk people into selling their souls for a seeming greater good look up to if they want to be on top or near the top of the totem pole in the afterlife?
Basically, the Abyss has plenty of hope to offer young crazy villainesses who go "When I grow up I want to be a demon lord!" What does Hell offer those similar deluded hopefuls that dream of hitting it big in LE's profane paradise?
Good questions. Dotting.
There are women among those who stick with it in male-dominated and misogynistic environments and rise to moderate positions of power who are validated precisely because they themselves have bought into the misogyny. They believe they have made it because they're not like other women, and allow themselves to think that because they're "not like other women," they have a chance at rising to true power.
So there's the lure of the illusion that you are the exception. You are better than other women because you succeed despite the misogyny, and you are better than men because you have succeeded starting with a handicap.
What would Eiseth and company be called by worshippers either free from or purposefully working around/subverting the patriarchal nature of Hell?
I dunno, if I had to talk to them and didn't want to offend, I'd probably go with "Devil-Queen" or "Grand Lady of Hell," something similar. :-)
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There are women among those who stick with it in male-dominated and misogynistic environments and rise to moderate positions of power who are validated precisely because they themselves have bought into the misogyny. They believe they have made it because they're not like other women, and allow themselves to think that because they're "not like other women," they have a chance at rising to true power.
So there's the lure of the illusion that you are the exception. You are better than other women because you succeed despite the misogyny, and you are better than men because you have succeeded starting with a handicap.
Yeah...there is that... That actually fits perfectly for one of the characters that kicked these questions up, though not so much for the other.
Still, that angle probably works for the character rising in the ranks in Cheliax and looking further ahead towards the payoff in Hell.
Ooo...Infernal Majestrix...
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While Hell is a big deal, it's not the only LE game in town. Some ladies looking to gain power through domination/seduction and wicked deals might sign on with Zon-Kuthon and his Kyton pals. Old ZK seems a lot less picky when it comes to servants.
That might be a selling point in the competition for petitioners. Hell might be a massive sausage-fest while Zon-Kuthon's torturous realm might have a more interesting mix.
I see the Rakshasas as a bit more gender neutral when it comes to their politics
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Probably. Maybe it's just that everyone tastes like chicken.
While Hell is a big deal, it's not the only LE game in town. Some ladies looking to gain power through domination/seduction and wicked deals might sign on with Zon-Kuthon and his Kyton pals. Old ZK seems a lot less picky when it comes to servants.
That might be a selling point in the competition for petitioners. Hell might be a massive sausage-fest while Zon-Kuthon's torturous realm might have a more interesting mix.
After reading the Irrisen book, I'm wondering if there could be something more to this now. It does seem like female Kuthites are more numerous or at least visible, but that might also be perception bias on my part. I may actually be more even.
This does have me wondering about any possible connection between ZK/kytons and Doloras again...
Perhaps you can do something with Asuras. They are certainly LE and could always use a little fleshing out. *shrug*
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And that's some new characters popping up fully formed from that notion, though they feel a bit mroe philosophical in bent than focused on gaining power.
Thinking about it further, such a character might just find working for a diabolist villainess and enabling the rise of a new power structure close enough to their ideals to work for her for a time... Mabye a bodyguardin'/assassinin' monk? I think a cast is forming here.
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Female villains -
While I am eagerly anticipating Diana Rigg's portrayal of Olenna Redwyne, 'The Queen of Thorns', the singularly most brilliant portrayal of a powerful villainess I have ever seen was by Siân Phillips as Livia Drusilla, in the BBC's 'I, Claudius' - in that role, Siân Phillips could school the likes of Doctor Doom and Ra's al Ghul on the tenets of Lawful Evil power.
Making deals with the devil doesn't necessarily require one to worship them...I could very easily see the power-hungry (of both genders) selling their soul or otherwise striking a bargain, with the hope of weaseling out of it later (Lichdom, endless resurrections, buying their way out with a prize greater than their soul, etc)
I think you have to be a lot stupider or crazy to negotiate with a demon or daemon. Devils will keep their word (even if they do try to bend the meanings behind contracts). Daemons only keep it if it is in their best interest, and demons mostly want to eat your face or do other unpleasant things to it.
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Who says that a lawful evil villainess is planning to remain female in the afterlife?
For inspiration, there were some early Christian heresies that were extremely misogynistic. In the (gnostic) Gospel of Thomas, Jesus says that he will make Mary Magdalene male, so that she can enter the kingdom of heaven.
So maybe a lawful evil female has bought so hard into hellish misogyny that she's counting on making the switch after death. I'm sure that the devils will be quite willing to work that clause into the contract. For the proper recompense, of course.
Keep in mind that the evil part of lawful evil might express itself in more than just doing bad things to other people. She might have some really messed up ideas about herself, too.
I think you are mistaken in thinking that a mortal's gender has any bearing on their afterlife as a devil or demon. For example the arch demon of lust is female because she is the arch demon of lust. Not the other way around. (it's not that she showed up in hell as female, so she gets slotted for the lust track of advancement)
Last I checked both demons and devils have to go through stages to achieve certain forms. An evil mortal doesn't generally die and become a succubus because they were female. They become lemur or nupperibo etc..
These and then the steps above them are generally genderless. I've never viewed pitfiends as being male and female. It's not like they are reproducing and making baby pitfiends. They assume whatever gender/non-gender happens to suit them at the time.
I also don't think that the hierarchy of the abyss or hell are common knowledge among mortals. Someone who decides they are actively going to worship Orcus doesn't strike me as being all concerned about gender roles in the abyss.
Worrying about your advancement opportunities and trying to imagine some sort of gender based glass ceiling to these places while sitting there worshiping the lord of death, flies, slimes, insanity, whatever just seems ridiculous.
Most stories about demon and devil worshipers have the evil villain turning to these evil entities to increase their power in the mortal world. Not trying to set themselves up to carve out a piece of hell as the resident arch-devil. And even if that was their intent I don't think the gender they would have to wind up as in archdevil form is going to stop them. The person is obsessed with power at any cost.
And besides if they succeed they are an Arch-devil. They can be whatever gender they want.
Demon's don't tend to go through the hierarchical transitions that devils do.
Mikaze, it remains unsaid too often that you start some of my favorite topics.
Dotting.
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I see the Rakshasas as a bit more gender neutral when it comes to their politics
In fact, they are fairly gender-blind in certain respects, in the Indian tradition about them. The women are certainly more empowered in selecting mates. But Rakshasa Marriage is forcible (at least against the woman's family, though she must still be seduced and convinced to agree to the actual match).
The status of being a Rakshasa is actually determined matrilineally (Ravana is a Brahmin on his father's side).In general, in the stories, they believe in their personal power and take what they want. Gender is less important than will.
One of the way non-human and barbarian races are depicted as "Other" in South Asian sources is in the sexual freedom of their women. However, there are some Southern Indian groups who are matrilocal and hence may have partly inspired the depiction of the Rakshasas, who are associated with southern India and Sri Lanka.
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Keep in mind that the evil part of lawful evil might express itself in more than just doing bad things to other people. She might have some really messed up ideas about herself, too.
Oh that's going to be a thing for both of these characters. :) Though the identification as female is a really big deal for one of them at least(and that one will probably be the one that's reactive against the sexist climate in Asmodeus' church, keying off of Jessica Price's suggestion).*
The Rakshasa notes above coupled with the Asura ideas really do make the notion of a supportive mutli-lawful-fiend-race-devotee villain crew backing that character up very tempting. They could each bring their own philosophical approach to her agenda along with their own reasons for backing her.
*
I think you are mistaken in thinking that a mortal's gender has any bearing on their afterlife as a devil or demon. For example the arch demon of lust is female because she is the arch demon of lust. Not the other way around. (it's not that she showed up in hell as female, so she gets slotted for the lust track of advancement)
Last I checked both demons and devils have to go through stages to achieve certain forms. An evil mortal doesn't generally die and become a succubus because they were female. They become lemur or nupperibo etc..
These and then the steps above them are generally genderless. I've never viewed pitfiends as being male and female. It's not like they are reproducing and making baby pitfiends. They assume whatever gender/non-gender happens to suit them at the time.I also don't think that the hierarchy of the abyss or hell are common knowledge among mortals. Someone who decides they are actively going to worship Orcus doesn't strike me as being all concerned about gender roles in the abyss.
Worrying about your advancement opportunities and trying to imagine some sort of gender based glass ceiling to these places while sitting there worshiping the lord of death, flies, slimes, insanity, whatever just seems ridiculous.Most stories about demon and devil worshipers have the evil villain turning to these evil entities to increase their power in the mortal world. Not trying to set themselves up to carve out a piece of hell as the resident arch-devil. And even if that was their intent I don't think the gender they would have to wind up as in archdevil form is going to stop them. The person is obsessed with power at any cost.
And besides if they succeed they are an Arch-devil. They can be whatever gender they want.
I forget where it is mentioned, but James Jacobs has come out to say that Hell is more masculine in theme, especially with Asmodeus's misogyny. Meanwhile, the Abyss is more feminine because it represents fertility and hosts a wider array of female demon lords, including one that became a goddess.
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This is where that "Hell Serves Cheliax" thing comes in handy. Sure, the hierarchy of Hell is Mysoginistic, but hers is the blood of Chelaxian Queens dating back centuries. Hers is a destiny of mastery, not servitude. Devil patrons are not "masters" to their Chelish associates, they're the other side of the contract, and no Chelaxian Lady worth her salt ever enters into a contract determined to do other than come out as the one ahead and in control.
The Blood of Cheliax carries with it a mandate to such a woman, and that mandate is to be Queen B!+~% of The Universe, dammit.
The whole reason why the seduction of Cheliax by Hell is working is because its citizens are convinced that they're the ones at the helm. Their entire society is about mastery, and mastery often includes letting the other person think they're the one in control.
"I am Daenerys Stormborn of the Blood of Old Valyria, and I will take what is mine! With FIRE AND BLOOD!"
I forget where it is mentioned, but James Jacobs has come out to say that Hell is more masculine in theme, especially with Asmodeus's misogyny. Meanwhile, the Abyss is more feminine because it represents fertility and hosts a wider...
I dunno, it's their game world, they can do what they want. But something just doesn't sit right when your trying to describe what is supposed to be Hell, in all its imagined and unimagined terror, horror and evil and slapping an oh yeah and their Misogynists too on top of it like that's supposed to make it more horrifying. Whether or not Asmodeus has an imagined prejudice against woman just seems so inconsequential, petty even.
Well Cinder its the little things that count, You know the personal touch that says you care.
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This is where that "Hell Serves Cheliax" thing comes in handy. Sure, the hierarchy of Hell is Mysoginistic, but hers is the blood of Chelaxian Queens dating back centuries. Hers is a destiny of mastery, not servitude. Devil patrons are not "masters" to their Chelish associates, they're the other side of the contract, and no Chelaxian Lady worth her salt ever enters into a contract determined to do other than come out as the one ahead and in control.
The Blood of Cheliax carries with it a mandate to such a woman, and that mandate is to be Queen B%!** of The Universe, dammit.
And the solution was there all along. :) That more than takes care of the other character.
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This is where that "Hell Serves Cheliax" thing comes in handy. Sure, the hierarchy of Hell is Mysoginistic, but hers is the blood of Chelaxian Queens dating back centuries. Hers is a destiny of mastery, not servitude. Devil patrons are not "masters" to their Chelish associates, they're the other side of the contract, and no Chelaxian Lady worth her salt ever enters into a contract determined to do other than come out as the one ahead and in control.
The Blood of Cheliax carries with it a mandate to such a woman, and that mandate is to be Queen B%!** of The Universe, dammit.
And the solution was there all along. :) That more than takes care of the other character.
Although, if I may poke a tiny twig into the wheel, as dynasties go, the Thrunes are (especially by Golarion standards) something of Johnny-come-latelies who's only been around for about a century.
Not that I think they see it that way, publicly at least.
You know it kind of makes me think of the book "The Handmaiden's Tale" (never see the movie it's just...bad). In the book there is a very strong female villain who has made it her point to raise up a government where women have no power, and when she finally finds herself in that government she's very unhappy and bitter (and yes I know I'm generalizing and there's a LOT more than this in the book, but I'm trying to save time and words here people). I could see a LE female diabolist thinking that those rules don't apply to them as they are OBVIOUSLY better than the other mild mannered women around them; it maybe a way you could go with a villain.
Just trying to bang
... okay, I read enough to know what this thread is about.
()
This is where that "Hell Serves Cheliax" thing comes in handy. Sure, the hierarchy of Hell is Mysoginistic, but hers is the blood of Chelaxian Queens dating back centuries. Hers is a destiny of mastery, not servitude. Devil patrons are not "masters" to their Chelish associates, they're the other side of the contract, and no Chelaxian Lady worth her salt ever enters into a contract determined to do other than come out as the one ahead and in control.
The Blood of Cheliax carries with it a mandate to such a woman, and that mandate is to be Queen B%!** of The Universe, dammit.
And the solution was there all along. :) That more than takes care of the other character.
Although, if I may poke a tiny twig into the wheel, as dynasties go, the Thrunes are (especially by Golarion standards) something of Johnny-come-latelies who's only been around for about a century.
Not that I think they see it that way, publicly at least.
The Thrunes are, yes, but Cheliaxian culture has held to the notion that Power regardless of form was the highest achievement of a life well lived for a long while before that, so says Empire of Devils in one of its sidebars. Ambition has been their hallmark for a very long time.
Their culture was consumed so quickly because it was already so ripe for it to begin with.
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Although, if I may poke a tiny twig into the wheel, as dynasties go, the Thrunes are (especially by Golarion standards) something of Johnny-come-latelies who's only been around for about a century.
Not that I think they see it that way, publicly at least.
The Thrunes are, yes, but Cheliaxian culture has held to the notion that Power regardless of form was the highest achievement of a life well lived for a long while before that, so says Empire of Devils in one of its sidebars. Ambition has been their hallmark for a very long time.
Their culture was consumed so quickly because it was already so ripe for it to begin with.
Wait. Waitwaitwaitwait, something just clicked.
Okay, before the Thrunes took over, the greatest symbol of power that Cheliax identified with was Aroden, and after he keeled over and through everything into chaos, Iomedae stepped up to fill the gap he left.
Now while her faithful did kind of leave their backs exposed in Cheliax because their attention had to be turned towards the Worldwound, some Chelaxian girl still could have grown up seeing Iomedae as the one that rose to the challenge and brought stability back to the heavens after Aroden's fall. Iomedae put things back in order up there. And this girl is growing up idolizing her for that feat and for rising so high in both power and station, and for succeeding where Aroden failed. And she was a daughter of Cheliax, so she relates to her.
But right now in Cheliax, there's still issues and they're largely coming from hell. Someone needs to rise to the occasion and bring order and Chelaxian values to hell. Someone just like Iomedae. So why couldn't it be her?
It would be the right, Chelish thing to do after all.
She doesn't intend to serve Hell but rather to conquer, through might and wit. She takes the Chelish colonial attitude and aims it at Hell itself.
Huh...
Just trying to bang... okay, I read enough to know what this thread is about.
It's still a fair snap judgment considering my post history.
Spoiler:Imagine Maleficent played by a Chelish/Varisian woman with actual human proportions
I'm trying, but I don't know who that is.
Female villains -
While I am eagerly anticipating Diana Rigg's portrayal of Olenna Redwyne, 'The Queen of Thorns',
Weird, I've never seen the Queen of Throns as a villain. After all, she's mostly in opposition to the saga's main villain.
Yeah I have never gotten a villain vibe about the Queen of Thorns...She just happens to be a politically astute player who wants to both protect her house and increase its influence, but not really in a brutal fashion or with any sort of sick glee, unlike some characters
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The 'men are from hell, women are from the abyss' vibe of Golarion feels a little forced to me. I could see an argument for men to be more associated with the hot-blooded savagery and immediate gratification of the abyss, and women to be associated with the cold-blooded manipulation and long-term strategy of hell. It would be as sexist as the opposite view, obviously. :)
But anywho, I'm not sure I like the idea of Asmodeus being explicitly sexist, so much as his church *currently* being on a kick to pooh-pooh the notion of women being military leaders and whatever, because of the (relatively) recent rise of Iomedae to prominence in Cheliax.
Asmodeus is old and smart, and the most powerful foothold he has on the mortal plane (Cheliax) is run by a woman. I don't think that he really gives a crap whether someone whose soul he intends to claim has boobs or balls.
Being evil and opportunistic and utterly unconcerned that having his church promote sexism and oppression may ruin thousands of lives, and perhaps perpetuate over generations, to undermine little miss Inheritors 'girls can be Paladins, yo!' message, he'll happily encourage that sort of cultural development, and not necessarily care one whit about the actual dogma he's having his church spew forth.
After all, they're all gonna be genderless larvae in the end...
[tangent]This does bring to mind that there really is a niche available for an evil male patron of 'witches,' like Grazz't was in Greyhawk. Golarion has Gyronna and Mestama, fairly explicitly, and Lamashtu seems a logical choice as well, but there don't seem to be any male counterparts. Abraxas seems more wizardly, than witchy, if that makes sense... For that matter, neutral or good dieties or empyreals with a bent towards witchcraft / patronage are also in shorter supply. Perhaps the Big Book O' Good Stuff will offer up a Magic-friendly Empyreal Lord who might fit that role, and send cute talking animals to befriend young lasses with magical potential and help 'spirit guide' them on the path of 'white magic.'[/tangent]
But, rambling aside, regarding Mikaze's original question;
Perhaps Miss Lawful Evil Wannabe Dictator considers the misogyny of hell (and those who follow it's creed) to be a colossal blunder on their part, and a sign of how hell is indeed inferior to, and necessarily subordinate to, Cheliax. She considers the underestimation of how capable, determined and effective a woman can be (in a world where your gender has *zero* relation to your ability to cast create demiplane or gate) to be a fatal miscalculation on the part of the sexists, and one that only makes a clever and ruthless woman *more powerful* than she might otherwise be, as the sexist males won't expect her to be able to enervate them back to needing to relearn bladder control or punch them seven times in a round for 2d10+X or turn into a dire bear while calling down a lightning storm.
A 'Keleshite Princess' (with or without the trait of that name, from the Qadira Companion) Bard with Leadership could make a fairly interesting mastermind. Or a member of the Kalistocracy, all about maximizing her profit (and therefore her status within Druma), without breaking any of her rules, but perfectly willing to take advantage of other people's 'poorly thought out' rules.
** spoiler omitted **I'm trying, but I don't know who that is.
The 'men are from hell, women are from the abyss' vibe of Golarion feels a little forced to me. I could see an argument for men to be more associated with the hot-blooded savagery and immediate gratification of the abyss, and women to be associated with the cold-blooded manipulation and long-term strategy of hell. It would be as sexist as the opposite view, obviously. :)
But anywho, I'm not sure I like the idea of Asmodeus being explicitly sexist, so much as his church *currently* being on a kick to pooh-pooh the notion of women being military leaders and whatever, because of the (relatively) recent rise of Iomedae to prominence in Cheliax.
Asmodeus is old and smart, and the most powerful foothold he has on the mortal plane (Cheliax) is run by a woman. I don't think that he really gives a crap whether someone whose soul he intends to claim has boobs or balls.
Being evil and opportunistic and utterly unconcerned that having his church promote sexism and oppression may ruin thousands of lives, and perhaps perpetuate over generations, to undermine little miss Inheritors 'girls can be Paladins, yo!' message, he'll happily encourage that sort of cultural development, and not necessarily care one whit about the actual dogma he's having his church spew forth.
After all, they're all gonna be genderless larvae in the end...
[tangent]This does bring to mind that there really is a niche available for an evil male patron of 'witches,' like Grazz't was in Greyhawk. Golarion has Gyronna and Mestama, fairly explicitly, and Lamashtu seems a logical choice as well, but there don't seem to be any male counterparts. Abraxas seems more wizardly, than witchy, if that makes sense... For that matter, neutral or good dieties or empyreals with a bent towards witchcraft / patronage are also in shorter supply. Perhaps the Big Book O' Good Stuff will offer up a Magic-friendly Empyreal Lord who might fit that role, and send cute talking animals to befriend young lasses with magical potential and help 'spirit guide'...
I always felt that the Abyss being more "feminine" was much less pronounced than Hell's misogyny. In the Abyss, it's not that one gender holds power over the other explicitly, but that the Abyss represent rampant growth and chaotic fertility. It wouldn't make sense for a Chaotic Evil-aligned plane or outsiders to be explicit about power over another gender. That's more of an LE hierarchical thing that'd you'd see with Hell. As for the misogyny with hell, it feels much less tacked on after reading all about hell in Book of the Damned 1, especially reading about Asmodeus and quite possibly the greatest and most tragic rendition of the War of Heaven I've ever read.
** spoiler omitted **
I must admit, I've never seen that movie, probably because, in general, I'm not a friend of animated movies of any kind. But thanks for explaining!
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You could always replace Moloch with the arch-devil Lilith. In AD&D's old MMII she is listed briefly as the consort of Moloch, but it could just easily be the other way around. Lilith is probably the best-known mythological devil missing from Pathfinder's list.
I approve.
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[tangent] For that matter, neutral or good dieties or empyreals with a bent towards witchcraft / patronage are also in shorter supply. Perhaps the Big Book O' Good Stuff will offer up a Magic-friendly Empyreal Lord who might fit that role, and send cute talking animals to befriend young lasses with magical potential and help 'spirit guide'...
I want to say Desna was hinted at as being Feiya's patron in her backstory, but I could be wrong there. Still, she isn't specifically related to witches, though she could probably fit the bill for a "good witch" patron very easily. :)
A 'Keleshite Princess' (with or without the trait of that name, from the Qadira Companion) Bard with Leadership could make a fairly interesting mastermind.
After double-checking with James Jacobs to make sure Seeker of Secrets' didn't retcon Qadira's culture, this has a lot of appeal too right now.
You could always replace Moloch with the arch-devil Lilith. In AD&D's old MMII she is listed briefly as the consort of Moloch, but it could just easily be the other way around. Lilith is probably the best-known mythological devil missing from Pathfinder's list.
If you're pulling from old D&D stuff, there's also Glasya, daughter of Asmodeus.
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If you're pulling from old D&D stuff, there's also Glasya, daughter of Asmodeus.
[tangent]In the 'Conspiracy Theories of Golarion' thread, I posited that Glasya is currently on Golarion, inhabiting the body of Abrogail Thrune, who has been possessed since she was a toddler, and is currently encouraging the nobility of Cheliax to select for healthy and physically attractive babies, so that they make better vehicles for her diabolic courtiers to crawl into and drive around...[/tangent]
Lilith would have been a good choice for a Arch She-Devil. Plenty of historical significance, and not someone kinda lame, like that eminently forgettable Night Hag 'Archdevil' from one of the D&D editions.
On the other hand, the 'Mother of Monsters' niche that Lilith traditionally filled is very much already taken by Lamashtu in Golarion. Just using the name Lilith might not be enough, if the stuff that makes her 'Lilith-y' is already in play with another arch-fiend-thingie.
If you're pulling from old D&D stuff, there's also Glasya, daughter of Asmodeus.[tangent]In the 'Conspiracy Theories of Golarion' thread, I posited that Glasya is currently on Golarion, inhabiting the body of Abrogail Thrune, who has been possessed since she was a toddler, and is currently encouraging the nobility of Cheliax to select for healthy and physically attractive babies, so that they make better vehicles for her diabolic courtiers to crawl into and drive around...[/tangent]
I remember that. Wonder what happened to that thread.
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In some apocryphal traditions, the Serpent (Nahash the whisperer) in Eden is a female and is distinct from Lucifer/Satan.
See here.
For an alternate female archdevil, this one has some historical and mythic pedigree.
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In some apocryphal traditions, the Serpent (Nahash the whisperer) in Eden is a female and is distinct from Lucifer/Satan.
See here.
Ooh, I didn't know that the Serpent had a name! Very cool.
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Where are you seeing a name for the serpent in that article? I didn't notice one.Ooh, I didn't know that the Serpent had a name! Very cool.In some apocryphal traditions, the Serpent (Nahash the whisperer) in Eden is a female and is distinct from Lucifer/Satan.
See here.
Sorry, didn't cite the name. here.
It's the name in the Torah; 'nahash' is a Hebrew word which is one of the synonyms used for snake.The article describes the Serpent legend where she's personified as female and distinct from Satan.
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I dunno, it's their game world, they can do what they want. But something just doesn't sit right when your trying to describe what is supposed to be Hell, in all its imagined and unimagined terror, horror and evil and slapping an oh yeah and their Misogynists too on top of it like that's supposed to make it more horrifying. Whether or not Asmodeus has an imagined prejudice against woman just seems so inconsequential, petty even.
Well many misogynist inherit their attitudes from their male parental figures growing up, many gain those feelings later in life when women of authority/power threaten their way of life. Asmodeus has the latter in his back story with Sarenrae being instrumental in his "fall". I've always considered her the reason he became misogynistic. The tumultuous relationship they have since fit his m.o. Nothing in his back story before that implies misogynistic tendencies. (which really show how scary Rovagug is for them to work together)
One of the things I've always loved about Golorion's deities is how very human they are sometimes. Asmodeus is one of the most powerful and influential deities yet his lack of respect for the opposite gender will be the end of him one day, his single greatest weakness.
Another way to look at this is that a LE villainesses doesn't have to worship a LE deity. If she worships Abadar's negative traits of civilization (slavery or the destruction of nature) or Iori's self-perfection (perfecting herself to become the best at what she does, which is gaining power). Going the other way she could become an organized crime boss with Norbergor or a death cults leader of Urgothoa. And as mentioned, Zon-Kuthon, who is awesome and she couldn't go wrong with him!