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14 Intelligence on a fighter is hardly a stretch, and it's hardly useless since it dramatically expands your noncombat options and unlocks several cool feats.
That's 4 maxed out skills, 5 with favored class bonuses, 6 if you're human, or 8 if you're a Lore Warden too.
The ONLY fighters who have problem with skills are those who CHOOSE to be that way.
THanks but it was darkwolf idea :pNicos really had a great idea.
I'd personally like to see characters at 3rd or 4th level as well, because that's where class features really starting doing something useful... lol.
I'm just worried that the thread ends up deviating from "interesting/versatile builds" to yet another "class X is better than class Y".
Oh, I see. YOU STOLE HIS IDEA!
Yeah, I obviously didn't make any mistake it was just that you tried to steal his idea!
Stop trying to take credit for other people's ideas, Nicos! That's not cool, man!
Uh...
Bluff:
^^
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My fighter has NO problem finding ways to make himself useful outside of combat. Among other things, he is a capable scout, scholar, soldier, and survivalist.
Yes, it IS pretty easy to make a good ANYTHING with what looks to be a 30 Point Buy.
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My fighter has NO problem finding ways to make himself useful outside of combat. Among other things, he is a capable scout, scholar, soldier, and survivalist.Yes, it IS pretty easy to make a good ANYTHING with what looks to be a 30 Point Buy.
I rest my case.
I never said it can't be done, RD.
Just that Fighter have to invest more than any other class. A fighter with Int 14 still only has average skill points. And spent almost half of his point buy on a attribute that doesn't reward him very much, even Lore Wardens.
Increasing Int doesn't incredibly multiply a Fighter's out of combat utility because he can make so much use Int, but because they have so little of it to being with.
The fact that they need Int 13 to get those cool feats is a flaw. The fact that you also need a terrible feat (Combat Expertise) to trip people is another flaw.
I don't think Fighters are useless. I don't think they're terrible. I don't think they can only be sword-swinging schmucks.
But I do think they don't perform as well as other martial classes. And what's worse, I don't think they perform as well as they should.
Not long ago I posted a non-human, no-archetype switch-hitter Fighter build who was a great Diplomat and could even make good use of those skills in combat.
He did have to spend 2 attribute points on a tertiary stat, 2 traits, 2 feats (one racial) and his favored class bonus to achieve that.
A Barbarian or Ranger could have spared the attribute points and favored class bonus. A Paladin could have spared the traits and feat. A gunslinger could probably have spared all of that.
Same results, different investments. And Barbarians and Rangers are not exactly designed to be the party face either.
I rest my case.
What case? It seriously is.
As much as I love the Monk I know how damn hard it would be to play mine if I didn't have such high stats.
The standard is 15 point buy. Would he be able to afford that 14 Int if he lost half his point buy? Or even 10 points of it for a 20 PB?
Would he be able to do it without losing large chunks of his Dex and Str (which make up 20 points by themselves)?
No, he would not. In which case, his Int would be dropped to at least 10 most likely, cutting his Skill points down to 4 (5 with Human, 6 with FCB), 2 if he wasn't a Lore Warden (3 with Human, 4 with FCB).
He'd also have to drop either his Dex or Con, unless he wanted to dump Wis as well, dropping his combat efficiency by quite a lot right there. Or his Str if he bought an Agile weapon, which I'll admit is an option but relies much more on dosh to be effective, and really DOES lead to the "If he loses his weapon his combat effectiveness gets cut in half" issue.
My fighter has NO problem finding ways to make himself useful outside of combat. Among other things, he is a capable scout, scholar, soldier, and survivalist.Yes, it IS pretty easy to make a good ANYTHING with what looks to be a 30 Point Buy.
My character is 25-point buy, since that's what our group uses, but my point still stands in full.
Most groups use 20-point buy, yes?
That's enough for a 16, 14, 14, 12, 10, and 8. That makes a perfectly serviceable fighter. Put the 12 into Intelligence and increase it with levels or with a +2 headband and you've made yourself a smart, skillful fighter. Alternatively, put the 14 into Intelligence from the start and put all your future increases into other areas. Either way, it doesn't take much effort at all.
This is doable even with the laughable standard that is 15-point buy:
16, 14, 12, 12, 8, 8
This is all done prior to racial adjustments, which may make getting that 14 even easier.
What case might you be referring to Shallowsoul?
Half of point buy Ryjnin? I know not what you mean. Even on the low end with 15-point buy, that 14 only accounts for a third. Not half.
It seems to me you guys are quibbling over what amounts to a +1 or +2 to hit and damage most of the time. That hardly matters.
Blarg, forgot racial bonuses when I looked at that.
Yeah I guess it's doable with a 15 PB, though I'm always wary of dropping Wis at all. Though as I said, you DID need to drop your Dex/Con to even snag a 12 in Int (or just Dex for 20 PB).
There are ways for a fighter to protect himself, even with low wisdom.
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My fighter has NO problem finding ways to make himself useful outside of combat. Among other things, he is a capable scout, scholar, soldier, and survivalist.Yes, it IS pretty easy to make a good ANYTHING with what looks to be a 30 Point Buy.My character is 25-point buy, since that's what our group uses, but my point still stands in full.
Most groups use 20-point buy, yes?
That's enough to for a 16, 14, 14, 12, 10, and 8. That makes a perfectly serviceable fighter. Put the 12 into Intelligence and increase it with levels or with a +2 headband and you've made yourself a smart, skillful fighter. Alternatively, put the 14 into Intelligence from the start and put all your future increases into other areas. Either way, it doesn't take much effort at all.
This is doable even with the laughable standard that is 15-point buy:
16, 14, 12, 12, 8, 8This is all done prior to racial adjustments, which may make getting that 14 even easier.
What case might you be referring to Shallowsoul?
Half of point buy Ryjnin? I know not what you mean. Even on the low end with 15-point buy, that 14 only accounts for a third. Not half.
It seems to me you guys are quibbling over what amounts to a +1 or +2 to hit and damage most of the time. That hardly matters.
That no matter what you do with the fighter someone is going to move the goalposts. They say you are poor out of combat, you prove them wrong then it's on to something else or there is a problem with your method.
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In that case, yes, your case is more well rested than Princess Aurora.
There are ways for a fighter to protect himself, even with low wisdom.
What ways?
I'm not doubting your statement, I just really want to see your suggestions. You're the guy with the crazy combos, after all!I'd rather it didn't rely on customized items, though.
Let me see... We have traits like Auspicious Tattoo and Indomitable Faith. And feats like Iron Will.
Headbands of Inspired Wisdom are a bit too expensive to buy just for the save, but I guess it's doable at higher levels.
Cloaks of Resistances are the most obvious choice.
We have my beloved Wayfinder + Clear Spindle Ioun Ston comboe to give them complete protection against possession/mind control by evil creatures, and it just costs 4500gp.
A few races have some resistance to magic, like dwarves. Elves and half-elves have resistance against enchantment, and Half elves can swithc their free Skill Focus for Dual Minded to boost their will save. Halflings and Half-Orcs have or can get a +1 to all saves. There are probably a hundred other racial traits from different races who do similar things.
What else you suggest? Any item/spell in particular?
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It's interesting to me that in a thread about "why wizards are so friggin' pwoerful" the entire conversation seems to have focused not on the abilities of the wizard, but the supposed weaknesses of a single class, the fighter. The assertion seems to have become that wizards are super overpowered because a class exists which is totally reliant on armor, weapons, feats and a tiny amount of skill potential. This has been represented in this thread multiple times by multiple people as "fighters have combat numbers but they don't have options."
Now, there clearly is some truth to this. Spellcasting is the single most option-boosting power in the game, and fighters don't cast spells, at least not through the class's base abilities. But there are other classes that don't cast spells too and they are not generally given the same disdain as the fighter.
So I'll grant that fighters can't cast spells on their own, but what about the other contentions?
The main class feature of the fighter is their ability to take many more feats than any other class and their access to feats that no other class can take. Because of this fighters are perhaps the only class in the game that are feat rich.
Being feat rich is a way to pursue options by itself.
If you are willing to build a fighter with an intelligence of 14 that fighter can have 5 skill ranks per level. Throw in a couple of skill-boosting traits and maybe a feat or two focused on skills and that fighter is now a pretty skilled build. Do you want a fighter who specializes in using wands, scrolls or other magic items? Not really hard to do. Take a trait to make UMD a class skill, throw a feat for skill focus into it and your fighter will be slinging spells as well as any magic-using rogue.
The same is true for social skills. In fact you've got enough to work with that a skill-based fighter can easily develop five or six skills as well as any other class in the game. So if you want to be the party face, the party sneak, the party wand-wielder, etc... it's just a matter of using a few of your boatload of feats to do so.
So this gets back to the fundamental ability of casting spells innately. No, pure fighters aren't going to do that. But neither are pure barbarians, monks or rogues.
Having played a fighter who invested in social skills and who exploited the leadership feat to smooth over some weak spots, I find this constant bashing of fighters to be somewhat interesting.
In the end the argument seems to boil down to "there is nothing in the game that the fighter unequivocally does better than any other class except fight.
Well, that's something. And it's been shown that a fighter who retains that combat mastery can do pretty much anything else in the game competently except cast spells. So if fighters suck, then so do barbarians, monks and rogues.
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There are ways for a fighter to protect himself, even with low wisdom.What ways?
I'm not doubting your statement, I just really want to see your suggestions. You're the guy with the crazy combos, after all!I'd rather it didn't rely on customized items, though.
Let me see... We have traits like Auspicious Tattoo and Indomitable Faith and feats like Iron Will.
Headbands of Inspired Wisdom are a bit too expensive to buy just for the save, but I guess it's doable at higher levels.
Cloaks of Resistances are the mos obvious choice.
We have my beloved Wayfinder + Clear Spindle Ioun Stone to give them complete protection against possession/mind control by evil creatures, and it just costs 4500gp.
A few races have some resistance to magic, like dwarves. Elves and half-elves have resistance against enchantment, and Half elves can swithc their free Skill Focus for Dual Minded to boost their will save. Halflings and Half-Orcs have or can get a +1 to all saves. There are probably a hundred other racial traits from different races who do similar things.What else you suggest? Any item/spell in particular?
Trait + cloak of resistance + Iron Will + Periapt of Wisdom are ways of upping your Wisdom.
Bravery for one. Many of the others come from Ultimate Equipment and seem tailor made for this kind of thing.
Most are situational though (such as protecting against fear only, or charm only).
EDIT: Band of the Stalwart Warrior, Cap of the Free Thinker, Headband of Inspired Wisdom (and other Wisdom increasing items), Headband of Fortune's Favor, Headband of Unshakeable Resolve, Sash of the War Champion...just to name a few.
That no matter what you do with the fighter someone is going to move the goalposts. They say you are poor out of combat, you prove them wrong then it's on to something else or there is a problem with your method.
If you're going to call me out, have the decency to actually say what I've been saying.
Which is: You can't make a skillful Fighter or one who is useful out of combat WITHOUT SIGNIFICANTLY IMPACTING HIS COMBAT EFFECTIVENESS. And they still don't really match up with other martials in that department. This is what I've been talking about here.
Most other classes don't have to sacrifice their combat stats to get a similar amount of skill points. Barbarians get 4+Int right out of the gate. Rangers get 6. A normally built Ranger with 10 freakin' Int still gets as many skill points as his character who is built specifically to try and get more skill points. The Barbarian has less if he drops Int to 10 (or below) but at least he has to intentionally drop himself below 10 to do so, which is his fault.
Actually, my original intended subject for this thread was not so much about "why wizards are so pwoerful", but "what really makes a character/class powerful?", but I made a poor choice of words when naming the thread.
If I could edit it, I'd certainly change the title to something like "Options x Numbers: What makes magic so powerful" or "What makes a character powerful".
I never said that every Fighter ever absolutely sucks out of combat, just that if a Fighter wants to be relevant in non-combat scenarios, he has to invest more than anyone else.
My biggest problems with Fighters are, unfortunately, present in all classes not focused on spell-casting.
You can't make a skillful Fighter or one who is useful out of combat WITHOUT SIGNIFICANTLY IMPACTING HIS COMBAT EFFECTIVENESS.
This is patently untrue.
Will it impact his combat effectiveness? Perhaps.
Will it do so significantly? Definitely not. The investment to make a skillful fighter is minimal and when everything is said and done, you're only talking about a one or two point difference.
That's hardly a significant impact.
Bravery for one. Many of the others come from Ultimate Equipment and seem tailor made for this kind of thing.
Ah, yes, Bravery. G$$%&@n thing is so useless I almost forget about it... Personally, I allow it to help against charm and compulssion effects, making it much less situational.
Fighter still don't have great will saves, but they can at least resist some of those spells.Most are situational though (such as protecting against fear only, or charm only).
EDIT: Band of the Stalwart Warrior, Cap of the Free Thinker, Headband of Inspired Wisdom (and other Wisdom increasing items), Headband of Fortune's Favor, Headband of Unshakeable Resolve, Sash of the War Champion...just to name a few.
Which ones are more universally useful? Other than the Wisdom-boosting ones.
I'm not asking to belittle your claims, I just want to know because I enjoy building and playing many classes that have poor will saves.
Which ones are more universally useful? Other than the Wisdom-boosting ones.
Of those listed? Headband of Fortune's Favor most definitely. It grants you a +1 luck bonus on all saves.
There are other similar items, such as a stone of good luck or a pale green prism ioun stone that add to your saves.
Take Iron Will, the aforementioned luckstone or headband, and the ioun stone, and you are looking at +4 Will saves over other fighters--that's only about 1 point behind your base good saves at high levels. Even with 8 Wisdom you are +3 above them.
If they have as 12 or 14 Wisdom, you are STILL +2 or +1 above them.
Not bad really.
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Actually, my original intended subject for this thread was not so much about "why wizards are so pwoerful", but "what really makes a character/class powerful?", but I made a poor choice of words when naming the thread.
If I could edit it, I'd certainly change the title to something like "Options x Numbers: What makes magic so powerful" or "What makes a character powerful".I never said that every Fighter ever absolutely sucks out of combat, just that if a Fighter wants to be relevant in non-combat scenarios, he has to invest more than anyone else.
My biggest problems with Fighters are, unfortunately, present in all classes not focused on spell-casting.
Just looking at the fighter, I don't disagree that fighters have to invest more to do other things, but because of their boatload of feats, they have plenty more to invest, so that investment does not cost them as much as, for example, a rogue.
To me the game is divided into three different stages:
Stage 1: Levels 1 - 4/5. In these levels martial characters are actually more capable in general than magical ones. Spellcasters either reserve spell use in combat (which focuses attention on the martial characters resource superiority) or they blow too many spells in one encounter and beg the party to rest (which again focuses attention on the martial characters resource superiority).
Stage 2: Levels 5/6 - 12/13. In these levels the spellcasters are steadily gaining more and more powerful spells while expanding their ability to use more lower level, but still useful, spells. Spellcasters are starting to demonstrate how their "options" are game-changers, but they don't have a whole lot of them. Martial characters still have a resource superiority and much of the power of the spellcasters is in increasing the power or ability of the martial characters through buffs or granting special abilities (like giving the rogue greater invisibility). To me this is the "sweet spot" of the game and it is when teamwork is most required and most rewarded.
Stage 3: Levels 13/14 - 20. In these levels spellcasters simply dominate the game in every conceivable manner. They now have access to a wide variety of game-changing spells, plus they have more and more access to cosmic-reality altering spells which can make combat completely irrelevant.
I tend not to play Stage 3 very much, but for stages 1 & 2, I find every class to be reasonably playable.
To "fix" the game means to do something to either boost the martial characters to having non-magical abilities that somehow (implausibly) compare to "time stop" or "wish", or else (as 4e did) to simply remove the game-changing spell options from casters, which essentially means the game has no stage 3.
I don't see how the game can be "balanced" with the current existence of Stage 3. To balance the game you have to get rid of stage 3, or else give martial characters the same cosmic reality altering abiltiies as spellcasters, at which point the game has changed its flavor so much that it will have to find a new audience, as WotC found out with 4e.
If you want a spellcasting fighter then play a Magus.
Since PF is supposed to be backwads compatible, I'd wager Duskblade is better at lower levels (before level 10).
So I'd use them as a Spellcasting Fighter (full BAB, w00t)| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't see how the game can be "balanced" with the current existence of Stage 3. To balance the game you have to get rid of stage 3
I would argue there's 4 stages, as I'd split your second stage into two different ones, but I'd have no problem chopping off stage 3 (ideally, my stage 3, which is your stage 2.5) completely.
However, my problem with this is that there are so many totally mundane abilities locked behind those stage doors. A rogue can't put two poisons on the same weapon until level 10. Really? That's a stage 3 ability? Same goes for preventing 5' steps or just being great at spreading rumors. Feats do this, too. Sickening someone on a crit is a stage 3 ability? Why? Heck, even just certain prestige class features are inaccessible until the teens--Assassin's "quiet death" which lets them kill people quietly is stage 3. Absurd.
I think if they're going to be cool with having casters be so super powerful, why not just stop non-caster progression at level 10 or whatever point "stage 3" begins? Why bother having them around if they're clearly inferior?
I guess I sort of agree with your idea that it's impossible to balance in the context of stage 3, but I dislike how deceptive the books are about the existence of stage 3.
If casters are better (and they are), just say so and warn people. Tell them flat out that the pinnacle of mundane awesomeness is level 6 or so. I'd be cool with that--I like E6.
the fighter doesn't have numbers that drastically higher than everyone.
the barbarian and fighter, are practically equal when you factor weapon training against rage. in fact, rage is better until about level 9, unless the fighter blows 3 of his 5 combat feats gained by that level specializing in one weapon.
Fighter:
Weapon Training: atk/dmg
+1/1 5th, for 2 feats, you can have +2/3 w/ one weapon
+2/2 9th for 3 feats you can have +4/4 w/ one weapon
+3/3 13th for 4 feats you can have +5/7 w/ one weapon
+4/4 at 17th for 4 feats you can have +6/8 w/ one weapon
rage atk/dmg
1st 2/3
11th 3/4
20th 4/6
since level 16+don't count, the fighter gets at 13th, if they blow 4 of their 7 bonus combat feats, 2 additional points of attack bonus and 3 additional points of damage over the barbarian's rage. assuming equal strength, equal enhancements, same choice signature weapon, and equivalent power boosters (gloves of dueling cancels out furious weapon, so neither was applied).
oh wait, if the barbarian also took weapon focus, the fighter would only have a lead of +1 attack/+3 damage.
and the barbarian gets
better class features
more base skill points with a better class skill list
3 Extra HP per die (4 extra at 11th) and an additional extra HP per die for the price of a single class exclusive feat.
better saving throws
the ability to trade AC for attack bonus: which could give anywhere from 1-6 points of 2 hit. which could outweigh the fighter's weapon training with an invulnerable rager, who gets more HP per die, an equivalent natural armor boost to use as fodder, pounce, and is only losing 2 net AC compared to a fighter with the exact same gear. know how broken shock trooper was for pounce builds? barbarians get it as a rage power, without the associated prerequisites.
so by turning my major AC advantage into a slight AC disadvantage, i get a better to hit bonus than the fighter by negating my power attack penalty. with 3 rage powers, and for a 4th i can get better saves, for a 5th, yes, i would love pounce please.
... and is only losing 2 net AC compared to a fighter with the exact same gear.But it will not be the same gear. Barbarian will have breast plate and fighter will have full plate.
I think what Lumiere means is that a Full Plate only gives you an extra +2 to AC, compared to Breast Plate.
As well as having more of his dex bonus to AC and lesser skill penalties.
But the Breast Plate already has a higher max Dex bonus to AC, so in this case, the difference is just the +2 the Full Plate has over the Breast Plate. At least until very high levels, when the Fighter gets Armor Training 4 and gets to add +5 from his Dex modifier. Still, he must have that +5 Dex modifier.
The Fighter could make it Mythril, of course, but so can the Barbarian/Ranger, and they'd even save some cash because mythril medium armor is cheaper than heavy armor. A Mythril full plate costs 10500gp, while a Mythril Breas Plate costs 4200gp. That's a 6300gp difference, more than enough for a Cloak of Resistance +2, a stat boosting item or Bracers of Falcon's Aim.Fighters will have considerably better flat-footed AC, though, but somewhat lower touch AC. They'll also be flat-footed more often, since they Perception is not one of their class skils.
A Fighter in full plate will have lower ACP than a Ranger/Barbarian in Breast Plate when he gets Armor Training 3, which happens at 11th level, much sooner than 15th level, but still, probably over half the campaign.
I like Armor Training, it's a cool class feature, but, the difference in AC is not that much.
Correct. Armor Training only gets you the AC if you have the Dex.
In this instance, the Barbarian will have the same dex as the fighter. As long as it is 20 or less, the Barb will get the same Dex to AC as the FIghter in his plate armor. Thus, the armor is the only difference.
If dex is more then 20, the barb will actually get MORE AC by wearing Celestial Mail. The fighter will have to pick up Celestial Plate to match him.
==Aelryinth
Aelryinth, what would you suggest to give non-casters more mobility and versatility?
From house-rules to possible feats/class features.
What do you think can be done to help them be more versatile?
Full attack after a single move, off the bat, kirthfinder style, with the ability to break up attacks between movement, and save attacks for later in the round.
no penalty on iteratives
allow haste to double the number of attacks in a round and actually double speed
so a hasted 10th level 2 weapon fighter with a speed of 30 (60 hasted) can make any of his 12 full bab attacks at any point during his 60 feet of movement.
so he can move 30 feet to one foe, attack 4 times, kill it, move 25 feet to another foe, attack thrice and if it dies, save his last 5 feet of movement and 5 attacks to kill another foe at any point in the action.
allow 2WF fighters to make an attack with each weapon on an attack of oppurtunity and apply full strength/power attack/etc damage to both hands
allow claw/slam users with a humanoid anatomy iterative claws/slams with each limb
double the bonus from strength/power attack/etc instead of 1.5 when wielding 2handers
give maxHP per hit die to everyone
merge feats, (2WF/double slice becomes a singe feat instead of a chain chain, improved/greater manuevers become free options at specific bab, power attack/deadly aim become free abilities as does pirahna strike, weapon finesse/dervish dance, combat expertise, rhino charge, spring attack/shot on the run/etc)
make weapon finesse affect both attack and damage, for free w/ light weapons, feat for all weapons
come up with a series of bladegrabbing/arrow catching manuevers for freehand builds
allow a number of swift/immediate actions equal to dexterity bonus, but no more than the attacks entitled from base attack bonus
move the extra attacks 1 step early, BAB 0/5/10/15/20
drop the rogue and monk classes, give everybody more skill points, make unarmed a valid fighting style option for all, and make ambushing and dirty tricks a series of skill based manuevers.
merge redundant skills (climb and swim become atheletics, diplomacy, handle animal, bluff and intimidate become persuasion, disguise, stealth, sleight of hand, and sleight of hand become subterfuge.)
drop use magic device as a skill, give every class the ability to freely use wands, scrolls, and potions. regardless of class
make crafting magic items tied to craft skills, not feats
consolidate craft skills. (blacksmithing covers all weapons and armor, tailoring covers all cloth and leather nonweapon nonarmor goods, alchemy covers potions and elixirs, calligraphy covers scrolls, jewelry covers all rings, amulets and circlets and woodworking covers wands)
instead of putting the big 6 bonuses in the form of items, make them into inherent bonuses that scale with level
remove all the redundant and arbritrary monsters resistances (such as damage reduction or energy resistance where it doesn't make sense)
make fast healing/regeneration available to all PCs/monsters at a rate of X=level/round but only out of combat. remove it in combat.
turn DR/Regeneration/Resistance/Spell Resistance/immunity into an amount of protection points per round that slowly regenerate up to a specified cap. (akin to protection from energy, or monte cooks moon hit points)
remove the "requires a magic weapon" BS from stuff like dragons or incorporeal monsters
make weapons and armor more freeform description with equivalent bonuses for a type, regardless. drop slashing/bludgeoning/piercing restrictions.
drop wisdom as a stat, merging it's aspects into intelligence and charisma. the reason charisma can't do anything is because wisdom steals it's niche. want to keep the feel of charismatic characters? make charisma a feat that gives you reputation based on a series of modifiers consisting of your level and 2 highest attributes' permanent non item based modifiers.
remove abilities that merely serve to bloat the numbers (like weapon specialization or toughness). make those abilities into inherent functions of leveling (toughness/open minded) or benefits of other options (choosing the 2handed style gives you doubled bonuses with a 2handed weapon or allows you to use one while grappled while 2weapon style lets you dual wield 1handed weapons)
make spellcasters cast like psionics, in other words, a mana pool (could use a per hour model), with a few at will abilities, limited spells known, no preparation, possible augmentation (required for stronger spell effects except damage, where damage scales with level)
*snip*
Is this... sarcastic? I can't entirely tell. If not, that is a ton of changes. I actually might agree with some of them, but... wow :P
*snip*Is this... sarcastic? I can't entirely tell. If not, that is a ton of changes. I actually might agree with some of them, but... wow :P
no, it's actually honest changes. akin to kirthfinder to a point. as much as i want to play kirthfinder. weekly william would never approve because
1, he hates laptops and pdfs at the table
2, he hates 'animu'
3, he hates rulesets he cannot find in print and has to download off an obscure site
4, he hates homebrew
5, he hates 3rd party
6, he hates using or devising houserules or variants
i dont know ashiel...
your abilities are on cool down until the end of the fight, dpr is very close between specs, a threat "tanking" system, and last but not least the 3 role grouping system (tank dps healer).
it felt like WoW to me.
As I said...
Cooldowns: WoW is much closer to 3.x/PF in its mechanics. The majority of your abilities in World of Warcraft are on what is known as the "global cooldown" (about 1 second in game time) which prevents you from spamming skills with seizure presses. This is effectively the same as a standard action ability. In much the same way as you can't keep attacking or using vital strike as often as you like during a round.
Particularly important powers have their own cooldown, and exceptionally powerful powers have a larger cooldown. These mechanics have existed in 3.x/PF before 4E arrived in the form of daily powers (such as rage x/day, smite x/day, breath weapon recharge time, Binder's vestige power delay, most every spell ever.
So if you want to attribute the inability to spam abilities round after round to being a WoW thing, you need to accept that virtually all RPGs and well designed games are going to have some sort of similarly limiting factor that determines how frequently you can use major abilities.
DPR Specs Damage Per Round is actually not that special. I played 4E when it launched and Rangers pretty much dominated DPR from what I saw (there was even a build for a Ranger posted a few days prior to the release due to leaked books that could solo Orcus - a party encounter - by one shotting him). Even among damage dealing classes many had their own quirks, pros, cons, and handicaps. The idea that classes like Fighters or Wizards had similar DPR is a hard one to swallow given the mechanics found in the core 4E rules.
Tanking & Threat 4E didn't add a threat system. At least not in the core rules (I can't say what they added in the bounty of splat books). The threat system in World of Warcraft is nothing more than a tool for determining now NPCs react to you. Threat mechanics do not exist in any sort of PvP scenario (where you have minds vs minds as you do in tabletop D&D and is the most similar to D&D combat). 4E didn't add any sort of threat mechanic.
What they did attempt to do (whether you agree they succeeded or not) was to create real threat within the classes who were intended to protect the other party members. Namely because they have such a lousy ability to generate actual threat in 3.x/PF that it is virtually always a tactically superior option to geek the DPS and ignore the tank until the mop up. In 3.x/PF the only way to be a threat was to ALSO be the DPS, which is really lame and contributes heavily to the all-out-offense tactics commonly seen in 3.x/PF games.
Their answer was to add options that allowed the martials to punish enemies who ignored them in favor of another player. While the marking system was very gamist, the idea was solid. Allowing a fighter to distract enemies, or a Paladin to sear his foes with divine damage when they dropped their guard to attack the martial's allies were inventive ways to create a tactical consideration. It doesn't prevent enemies from ignoring the martial (or "tank" or "defender" or "meat shield" or "big stupid fighter" or whatever else you like to call 'em) but it does give tactical pause whether or not that is a wise choice.
Compare to Pathfinder's Antagonize feat which is not only god-awful but actually IS a threat mechanic that makes the game more like a PC-game with AI opponents (really dumb AI at that).
Three Primary Roles If anything this was a step in the right direction that 4E made but it was actually a step backwards in time. Back to the days of yore when there was only Fighting Man, Magic-User, and Cleric. See, there once was no thief class, and thus no skill guy. Instead, everyone just made a check to see if they could do something like jumping, hiding, or whatever (generally this was an ability check that was attempting to roll less than your ability score on a d20).
In this case you had the Tank (fighter), DPS (magic user), and Healer (cleric), though all were decent at dealing damage (but magic users were arguably the best versus most enemies due to the amount of damage vs HP of their spells, while fighters tended to have great AC and the best saves, and clerics were decent combatants that also healed which was much appreciated in a game where you died at 0 hp).
Later the thief came along and suddenly the "skill guy" was born. Unfortunately this basically meant diminished interaction with the world for the non-skill guys (since what was once a check for everyone is now a check for the skill guy). Unfortunately the thief sucked. Much as the modern Rogue sucks because he's still trying to be "the skill guy" and little else in a game that has evolved to be more robust and allow everyone to be "the skill guy" in whatever they want to be good at.
In a tabletop RPG where you can invest in skills more or less freely and people have their options to branch out or to specialize in a niche set of skills (such as with your typical 3.x/PF adventuring party which usually includes 3+ party members, some with magical expertise, physical expertise, stealth expertise, and social expertise, between the lot of them) then your other roles become the primary focus. Those roles are practical roles like protecting your allies, solving problems, keeping your party alive, supporting the team.
4E realized that everyone in the party is going to have skills. There was no need for the "skill guy" anymore. Some classes are a little more "skill guy" than others, but such things are merely a supplementary bonus in what their primary strengths are (which harkens back to the Fighter, Wizard, and Cleric of yore).
Summary
I don't even like 4E (mainly because of the sheer amount of disassociated mechanics, clunky multiclass system, and other horrible system choices. However, I will acknowledge and give credit where it is due. I also think it's incredibly lame when people talk about things that make 4E = WoW when the things they mention are already alive and well in 3.x/PF and have been since its release back in 2000 before WoW ever came out (WoW is actually more like 3.x D&D, as WoW druids are 3.x druids minus the companion, warriors are like fighter/barbarians (including having a steep learning curve), paladins are clerics, etc). It also bugs me that when they describe the "WoW-like" things they are things that are more or less universal to RPGs.
Unless the first spell is flight. Flight is game breaking.
Unless your foes aren't morons. Ranged weapons and cheap consumables pretty much crush most flying things way before high level defenses become available. And then you should have access to flight too so you can play sky-tag.
101 Wizard Tips #75
Flying means not being able to be hit by melee attacks. However, it also usually means giving up all cover, flying around like a big target for the arrows, bolts, slingshots, and targeted spells of your enemies. Don't rely on protection from arrows because it only provides DR vs non-magic arrows and an oil of magic weapon is only 50 gp which fits well into the NPC gear values of even the lowest level foes, who would naturally carry such a thing in a world with uppity flying wizards. That's before you realize that in many natural and unnatural terrains 3D combat isn't very flight-friendly.
In general, you are probably better off keeping friends and objects between you and your foes. Melee attacks are equally difficult to fall prey to when you simply avoid them, and enjoying the +4 AC bonus from having your big buddy in armor between you and incoming ranged attacks is swell. Especially when combined with crouching (+2 AC vs ranged attacks) or lying prone (+4 AC vs ranged attacks) which have no detrimental effects to most abilities.
If flight breaks a game it's a sure sign your GM needs to go back to GM school (and the Core Rulebook) and actually read the book. While he or she is at it, they might consider pouring over the environmental sections and combat rules to learn about other fascinating things like terrain, lighting conditions, and corpses on the battlefield, 'cause if fly is causing them grief they're probably ignoring around 30%+ of the game.
If flight breaks a game it's a sure sign your GM needs to go back to GM school (and the Core Rulebook) and actually read the book. While he or she is at it, they might consider pouring over the environmental sections and combat rules to learn about other fascinating things like terrain, lighting conditions, and corpses on the battlefield, 'cause if fly is causing them grief they're probably ignoring around 30%+ of the game.
I kind of agree. Most of the DMs I've seen who have had big problems with flight in 3.x were the ones who had no idea what the maneuverability rules actually were. In their defense however, those rules were (and still are) a mess.
The other problem people seem to have with flight is that they allow it to be an exception to the norm rather than something people prepare for and expect. "I just flew over the castle wall in the cover of darkness" Well, that king is an idiot. This is a world where he could be attacked by flying dragons, gryphon mounted assault teams, armies of harpies, etc. Why doesn't he have air born patrols and no fly zones? But its hard to think of all the consequenses of each introduced mechanc, and years of no real advice on how to handle it or poorly written adventures which have given people the impression that the way to handle it is to ignore it, haven't helped any.
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It's like all those people who think they're so clever talking about how silly Lord of the Rings was and suggesting that they should have just flown in on eagles and tossed the ring into the fire and went home for tea. Of course, what they didn't consider was the fact that's a really amazingly stupid idea...
What with the thousands of orc and goblin archers on giant watchtowers.
Or the group of really bad guys flying around on monstrous mounts.
Or if you missed the pool of fire from the sky you've delivered the ring via airmail to the dark lord.
Stuff like that.
It really separates the newbies from the vets. I recall being a newbie. I remember back in the days where my mind was wrapped around the mundane and I thought rogues were amazingly OP 'cause they could just steal stuff like magic items. And then I grew up. ;)
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Aelryinth, what would you suggest to give non-casters more mobility and versatility?
From house-rules to possible feats/class features.
What do you think can be done to help them be more versatile?
A melee character should be able to full attack every bit as often as an archer character. Thus, being able to move and attack should be parcel of every melee class.
'Full Attack' should be: Something an archer has to do to unload multiple arrows; something a melee does to get an additional bonus. In short, a melee should trade his movement off for a bonus to his attacks or a better defense, not for more attacks. The latter is something a missile guy should do. This way, full attack means the same thing at level 1 as at level 20...you are not moving so that you gain a bonus, not so that you get more attacks. I mean, unless you are TWF, Full attack doesn't even exist until level 6...wth?
I don't have any problems with what Barbarians and Rangers get. But what they get so overshadows the fighter I just shake my head.
A fighter has no magic and no rage point pool. Just for that, he should have the best basic defenses in the game, which means all good saves. The other classes get to rely on magic and stealth...the fighter relies on his basic chassis. He should have all good saves.
If you don't want to do that, then add his Weapon training to fort saves; his armor training to Reflex saves; and his Bravery to Will saves. It's just easier to give him all Good saves and call it a day.
The rogue should have good fort and dex, just like a ranger. He's basically a sneakier, more clever version of a ranger...and at least as tough as a cleric, and gets exposed to more harmful stuff.
The fighter's AC bonus in armor should be a dodge bonus. If he's got the Dex, that's great. If not, he still gets his class AC bonus. And now using his class bonus is not dependent on getting Dex boosters, nor can it be duplicated by using Mithral or Celestial armor. A monk gets the bonus without armor, the fighter gets it with it...how hard is that?
Fighters should get DR in armor, and it should stack with adamantine armor. The penultimate armor mastery of suddenly getting DR 5/- is STUPID. No reason to ever have adamantine armor, because it doesn't stack...and why couldn't they get DR as they levelled, every time they got a +1 to AC, you know, like the barbarian does? So, every time you get +1 to your AC in armor, you get DR 1/- when in armor or wearing a shield, stacks with adamantine armor.
Your fighters right now have one distinction: They are the getters of feats. they are not any better at using feats then anyone else...that actually is the barb, because the barb gets higher stats and supernatural Rage boosts.
Simplify Weapon Training and the Weapon Spec tree. Weapon Training provides the same bonus, and you just add a new weapon group every 4 levels...you know, like the barb gets his bonus with anything he uses, and Rangers the same. The fighter is the only one discriminated against on his weapons. Weapon Specialization should just double the base weapon training bonus, and done. Autoscales, saves feats.
Out of combat: A fighter does need 4 skill points. A fighter is a highly trained combatant who is going to be skilled in a wide variety of disciplines tangent to fighting. He is not a thug. He certainly should have more education then a barbarian.
Give a fighter 4 skill points, and let him pick any two skills to add to his base choices. That reflects the versatility of a fighter.
If you don't want to give the fighter more skill points, then give him feats...a seperate pool of non-combat feats, that reflect intensive training in other areas. Since the game barely distinguishes between rank bonuses and feat bonuses, it's a great way to play a fighter.
Every odd level after 1st, give the fighter a feat drawn from the following: Skill focus, skill synergy (+2/+2 skill feats), Skill Knowledge (+2 and class skill), or Skill versatility (+1 to broad class of skills, class skills), the saving throw feats, toughness, endurance, and any other feat which affects skills, saves, hit points, and the like.
Note that there's already at least one 'wild card' feat in the game - Critical Versatility, which allows a human fighter at level 11 to spend one hour to gain any Critical Feat he qualifies for. In short, he never has to take a critical feat, he gets whatever he wants, when he wants.
I think all fighters should have this. They should probably have a movable Skill Focus feat that does the same thing, representing 'training of the day'. The same should apply to their weapon training, if not to their Weapon specialization. Weapon Spec makes you a master swordsman. weapon training makes you good with weapons. YOu should be able to switch your training on weapons, if not your spec.
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Hit points should reflect focus on combat.
Spellcasters should stick with straight d6 and d8's.
Partial casters, like rangers and paladins, can do d8+2,to make sure they are tougher then casters who can afford a high Con.
Non casters should be d+4. So, Rogues should be d4+4, Fighters d6+4, and Barbs d8+4. That raises their average hit points to a level where a caster shouldn't be able to overshadow them.
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I'm also a very big believer in the fact that some classes, particularly the physical ones, are much, much more dependent on stats then others. A wizard or sorc can get by on ONE good stat...the rest are just gravy. Clerics and druids maybe need two. Every melee class needs 3, and monks need 4.
So, give 'em more stats.
Any time you gain 4 levels in one class, hand out extra stat points. Just don't let them RAISE the highest stat.
For Monks, award an extra point into their lowest stat, their lowest mental stat,and their lowest physical stat. Monks are questing for self-perfection, and that is better reflected by lifting their weakest stats as opposed to raising their highest ones.
Give Fighters and rogues raises to their lowest physical and mental stats. These classes are all about self-improvement without relying on magic.
Give barbs a raise to their lowest physical stat, rangers and paladins to their lowest stat. Barbs are physical creatures, while rangers and paladins rely on a wider stat array, but are also spell casters.
Give Divine casters a raise to their lowest stat. Give arcane casters a raise to their lowest mental stat. These classes rely on spells, not stats. A divine caster will shore up his weaknesses, while an arcanist focuses on his own mind.
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Use the 4E system for save bonuses: Str or Con adds to Fort; Cha or Wis adds to Will; Int or dex adds to Reflex. Melees will have the highest of fort saves, not the clerics.
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Rogues: if you are going to make a skill class, then it has to dominate skills. Rogues, and to a lesser extent bards, have always been the guys who know everything. Sherlock Holmes was a rogue. In the current game, the bard can actually have more skill points then the rogue, and have magic and party buffs on the side. Very unbalanced. If you're going to have a skill class, then the class has to be better at skills then any other class, if not better at any one skill then another class that wants to make the investment.
So, give Rogues a Skill Focus or skill Synergy (+2/+2) feat every level that they don't gain a Sneak Attack die.
Skill focus & Synergy represent a devoted specialist to any other class, you're burning a general feat to be good at something. To a Rogue, it just means you're better at using a broad variety of skills then any other class, and NOBODY is going to be your equal at more then one skill. You don't need magic to be awesome, because you are indeed awesome.
Where the fighter uses Skill Focus to make up for his lack of skill points and affirm that he's the master of feats, the Rogue uses them to cement his status as the master of skills, period. The only equal to a Rogue in most skills should be another Rogue...if the Bard and Mage want to snipe at one another on the Knowledge skills, that's fine, but a Rogue should be able to match a bard wit for wit in social skills, outsneak a ninja using their ki pool, disarm traps hung by some mewling 'expert' without breaking stride, and basically do whatever is called on for a skilled being to do, and with style and panache.
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
-Robert A. Heinlein
That's a rogue.
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As Ashiel points out, there's a lot of downsides to being able to fly in combat. If you aren't prepped to take out a flyer, you're toast.
On the flip side is the incredible lack of realism in defenses against flying and dimensional hijinks. I mean, come on, you can start mucking with dimensional steps at level 1, and you can't stop something from doing that until level 4 spells come along with Dimensional Lock, and they get a save to resist???
That makes NO sense whatsoever. NOT being able to treat dimensions like graph paper is the standard. Why is it so hard to enforce the standard, when it's so easy to break it?
In my campaign, the Proof Against Teleportation spells all exist (3.5), and they are murder on teleporters. That 2 round delay allows the enemy to get into perfect position to murder you, since they know exactly where you'll be popping up.
More useful is Interdiction. This is a spell that can be freely Heightened, and it raises the level you need to do dimensional hijinks by the level of the Interdiction. So, if you cast Interdiction from a 5th level slot, then to use a Blink you'd have to heighten it to 7th level. To Teleport, you'd need a 10th level spell. You'd have to cast your Summon III from an 8th level slot. It covers a radius of 10' per caster level, lasts a turn per level, and can be made permanent. It's a standard defense of ANYPLACE that doesn't want to worry about phasing/teleporting/astral/ethereal/summoned/earthgliding foes. Furthermore, it's not dispellable...it strengthens the Veil of dimensions in it's area, the only thing a dispel will do is 'anchor' it, if it's centered on a moving object or person, so it's influence dissipates from the point of dispelling.
This spell, cast at 7 or higher, wards just about every important place that exists, and every spellcaster's home, because it just makes sense that there would be defenses against summonings, teleport kills, gate openings, and the like.
against flight, there's two seperate defenses, both are elemental spells - Stillflight from the elemental air side, and Earthbind from the earth side.
Stillflight is an AoE that destroys all non-natural lift. If you aren't a natural creature obeying the laws of natural physics, you lose your fly speed. So dragons, air elementals, polymorphed wizards and vampires, flying carpets and anything else that is not a natural creature with a fly speed lose all lift and can do nothing but glide straight down. Birds, bats, they have no problem. Creatures with wings that could in no way support them, or using magic to fly? Out of luck.
This spell exists at 3rd level and 5th, can be made massive in area relatively easily, and again, can't be dispelled, only made non-motile. It's used on every battlefield, protects every city with a wall, fortresses, etc.
So nothing overflies a city, gets in and out with impunity. Walls actually mean something.
The Earthbind version is a combat spell that forces every creature to remain in contact with the ground (or objects in contact with the ground) in the AoE, and hardens the earth against intrusion. So, no jumping, no flying whatsoever, it ejects burrowers and earthgliders into open areas. Also a standard defense against creatures that fly and others that try to hide under the earth. It also makes it extremely hard to avoid difficult terrain.
IN a world where demons have unlimited teleporting, earth elementals can slide through stone walls, bulettes can burrow through rock, dragons can overfly cities, mages can drop itemized boulders on your castle from three miles in the air...tell me, why do these defenses not exist? Or, if they do, why are they so impossibly high level, when they should be incredibly low level? They are enforcing natural law, not breaking them willy-nilly like magic does.
It's like the idea of anti-magic field defenses being expensive, and discriminating against casters. Sorry, walls discriminate against melees...an anti-magic field is just a wall against casters. It's fair, it's believable, and does anyone believe that any system of government that didn't want to be slave to casters wouldn't implement a whole lot of these?
Restricting the ability of an enemy to manuver is classic military doctrine, but doesn't seem to exist in the game. So, put it in, and make use of it. Flight and dimensio-hopping cease to become game breakers, instead becoming situationally useful, not neccessities.
==Aelryinth
Exactly: Anyone can use traits. it's no Fighter specific.
I admit they're usually more useful for martials than casters, though.But even so, it doesn't matter how many class skills you have if you still can only put ranks in 1 or 2 of them.
And traits or no traits, that was still a terrible argument.
No, Lemmy. It directly addresses the problems you see in the class. Plus, since you can effectively BUY new traits with feats, and Fighters have them coming out the wazoo, they have no real problem with getting more of them. Don't have enough skill points? Get a Headband of Intellect, and if you are really picky, do it old school style so the ranks are retroactive and applied across the board instead of piled in one Knowledge.
Yeah, other classes can use traits too, but they don't use traits in the same way, nor can they have as many as a Fighter could if he felt like it. Fighters just plain have feats to spare, as they get them each and every level.
Exactly: Anyone can use traits. it's no Fighter specific.
I admit they're usually more useful for martials than casters, though.But even so, it doesn't matter how many class skills you have if you still can only put ranks in 1 or 2 of them.
And traits or no traits, that was still a terrible argument.
No, Lemmy. It directly addresses the problems you see in the class. Plus, since you can effectively BUY new traits with feats, and Fighters have them coming out the wazoo, they have no real problem with getting more of them. Don't have enough skill points? Get a Headband of Intellect, and if you are really picky, do it old school style so the ranks are retroactive and applied across the board instead of piled in one Knowledge.
Yeah, other classes can use traits too, but they don't use traits in the same way, nor can they have as many as a Fighter could if he felt like it. Fighters just plain have feats to spare, as they get them each and every level.
You can only buy traits with the Additional Traits General Feat. Fighters don't have any more General feats then anyone else, so, no, Fighters aren't any better at gaining Traits then any other class.
and no, they can't 'afford' to spend the feats any more then any other class can afford to give up their General Feats. Fighter bonus feats are there to make up for their shortcomings vs the other melee classes. If they start giving them away, they fall behind in their role. They need every combat feat they can get.
==Aelryinth
I don't usually agree with Ashiel. He's almost 100% right about flight though. IC, it is fairly balanced against its drawbacks. Sometimes it is the right idea, sometimes it isn't, and casting fly is not "I win" in a game that has evolved beyond forcing the PCs to fix the bridge to cross the river.
On the other hand, I do find flight frequently game breaking. I use Maptool (we play online), and 3-D combat isn't well supported, making fly a bit of a pain in the arse to adjudicate. Anyone have any help for that?
Most of the time, the abilities that disrupt the game for me are the ones that force me to slow everything down. Detect magic, for instance, if I didn't think to provide myself with a list of all the magic auras in a given area. (Later arcane sight provides the same problem, only it is constant rather than with a 3 round delay) Or breaking through a wall that I didn't think to qualify as reinforced masonry or hewn stone.
Players 'beating' encounters is pretty low down on the list. It's there, especially if they aren't having fun because the encounters are too easy, but it isn't the meat by any means.