As a player, I have been frustrated by various XP handout situations. These include:
1.In a three or four month period, I miss two sessions in which the rest of the group showed up. Because of work obligations. During those two (non-consecutive) sessions, epic fightin' big monster stuff happened, and as a result I am suddenly the lowest level member of the party. Some players are two levels above me. As a result, my character is not nearly as tough, not nearly as hard-hitting, gets wiped out and has to be saved more often, and generally seems to be holding the group back. This is despite the fact that -
2. In that same period, there were many sessions that were canceled because
a) other players go on vacation/has work obligations
b) the GM, who works from home, cancels at the last minute, citing work obligations
c) other players cancel at the last minute. For more than one of these, I actually show up and wait with GM and maybe one other player, and we find out that other players aren't coming as they gradually text in.
These all add up to a lot more than two (scheduled) sessions. So why is my character singled out?
3. My character, or the party in general, seems to be stuck at the same level for months at a time, and the GM more or less ignores me even as I'm pointing out the laundry list of things I/we have encountered since last we leveled.
4. Simply figuring out who got what XP for what, going back through a list of encounters and figuring out their weight in experience points can really eat up game time, I find. They can also start arguments, and in general I feel that the more emphasis on tallying a "score", the more RP starts to feel like a video game.
So - now that I've got that off my chest, I'm going to be running a game of my own soon. Homebrew setting, homebrew adventures. I would like to handle XP in a smoother way than I've seen at home games so far. I rather like the way that PF Society games handle XP - I have yet to see someone argue XP or level at a Society game. But this seems way too simplistic for a home campaign.
I'm thinking there must be some sort of "group XP" system, wherein the total xp of the party isn't divided amongst the players. Instead the level requirements of the party as a whole should be combined, and the group levels when the sum of all their experience reaches that level.
For example, a four-member party on the fast track would need 5200 XP, combined, to reach level 2.
Does this seem fair? Unworkable? My hope is that it will reduce some of the I/me/mine mentality that can come up in games and hopefully the players will work together.
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Get right to the root of the problem and fix it.
Abandon XP entirely.
I've never played with actual XP. I've played campaigns where we level every three sessions, every two sessions, or even two out of every three sessions. I've also played in campaigns where the GM just decides when to let us level. The best pace personally seems to be every two sessions.
Tracking XP seems like a chore for both GM and players. Additionally, it seems like it would foster a hack-and-slash attitude where killing things is the primary goal. Having never tried XP this is just speculation, but anyway that's my two cents.
edit: I've also never played with a GM who penalizes players for missing sessions by holding back their leveling. The reason to show up to game night is to have fun, not because you're anxious about your character falling behind the party. The attitude in our games has always been "real life comes first" and the game just becomes less fun for everyone if you're penalizing players for things they can't control.
GM levels up the party at appropriate plot points. You reach a certain stage of the plot, you become a certain level.
Easy to do in APs because they give you estimates of "your party should be X level by this point in the story, Y level by this point, and Z level by the end of this chapter".
I don't do it myself - we like XP in my group, and I don't mind adjusting APs when my group is ahead/behind the curve (I'm going to adjust anyway) - but then I also don't not give people XP when they miss a session. If one person is missing they get NPC'd; two or more and session is cancelled.
Tracking XP seems like a chore for both GM and players. Additionally, it seems like it would foster a hack-and-slash attitude where killing things is the primary goal. Having never tried XP this is just speculation, but anyway that's my two cents.
Possibly true for some, but far from true for all. These kinds of generalizations are probably best unspoken or forgotten completely. ;)
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Yes, it sounds like basing your leveling system off of plot-points or sessions would be a better way to go for the game you want to run. I'll often just mark the points in the plot where the party should be reaching a new level and let the party know they have done so at an appropriate moment. That keeps everyone on the same track and also helps dampen the kill-fires a bit and encourage more thoughtful RP since the party isn't harvesting every living being they encounter to feed into the XP machine.
It seems like either plot leveling or group XP should work fine. Just make sure the XP is divided evenly among the CHARACTERS not the PLAYERS present at the time.
Tracking XP seems like a chore for both GM and players. Additionally, it seems like it would foster a hack-and-slash attitude where killing things is the primary goal. Having never tried XP this is just speculation, but anyway that's my two cents.
Of course posts like this still make me facedesk.
Refreshing! I think I will do away with XP after all. Because I've had a relatively bad experience with it.
I also don't not give people XP when they miss a session. If one person is missing they get NPC'd; two or more and session is cancelled.
Makes sense to me. I actually pointed out to the GM of the campaign I was ranting about above that one of the other players played my character when I wasn't there, and that he (the character) should get XP for it. GM's response was to laugh at me like I was stupid and say, "Look, you don't show up, you don't get XP - Period."
Maybe I needed to rant here to realize that I was in a lousy, neverending campaign. With a grouchy control freak for a GM. Thanks for the clearer perspective.
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Refreshing! I think I will do away with XP after all. Because I've had a relatively bad experience with it.
I also don't not give people XP when they miss a session. If one person is missing they get NPC'd; two or more and session is cancelled.
Makes sense to me. I actually pointed out to the GM of the campaign I was ranting about above that one of the other players played my character when I wasn't there, and that he (the character) should get XP for it. GM's response was to laugh at me like I was stupid and say, "Look, you don't show up, you don't get XP - Period."
Maybe I needed to rant here to realize that I was in a lousy, neverending campaign. With a grouchy control freak for a GM. Thanks for the clearer perspective.
Okay...it sounds like your group, or at least the GM, is a jerk. Maybe it's time to find a new group.
Tracking XP seems like a chore for both GM and players. Additionally, it seems like it would foster a hack-and-slash attitude where killing things is the primary goal. Having never tried XP this is just speculation, but anyway that's my two cents.Possibly true for some, but far from true for all. These kinds of generalizations are probably best unspoken or forgotten completely. ;)
"Seems like it would foster" counts as a generalization these days? Anyway, I already said I've never tried the thing I'm criticizing, so why are you still listening to me? :p
I've just had bad experiences with players who rush through roleplay to get to the battles, and it seems like the XP system gives an extra incentive for that kind of behavior. Not saying that players will necessarily respond to the incentive, but the incentive is there. Whether it realistically makes a difference, I have no idea.
The system that has always worked for my group is to track XP as a group. One person generally writes down XP (usually me) as we get it and when the total hits the next level we all gain a level. It is less picky about who gets what and easier to keep track of. If some one is absent for a session we don't penalize them in the slightest because of a simple fact: RL>RPG
The system that has always worked for my group is to track XP as a group. One person generally writes down XP (usually me) as we get it and when the total hits the next level we all gain a level. It is less picky about who gets what and easier to keep track of. If some one is absent for a session we don't penalize them in the slightest because of a simple fact: RL>RPG
The fact that my group had migrated over time to this means of tracking XP was one of the main reasons I opted for losing XP altogether. Once I got used to the idea of the group leveling at the same time, it was a very short step to say "oh, well, we always tend to level after a big boss fight.... hmmmm...."
I flip flop from using XP or not, we do punish a player for missing a session for non work related or for lots of work related but the punishment is they lvl half A session to a full session behind for a few lvls then catch up if they miss to many games for personal reasons we just remove the character from the game (with exception for understandable reasons) This is because not having characters there even when npced takes away from the game a little.
when using XP the missing player still gets 1/2 - 3/4 XP for the session depending why he wasn't there and if work is the cause often player gets full XP because work comes before fun always.
Side note we tend to lvl once per night sometimes twice per night if we use XP but then we also tend to game for 10-12+ hours so a hell of a lot gets done during the session.
Part of the problem with my circle is that people generally can't start a game til at least 7 and want to be done by 10. And it's hard to get people to stick to a weekly schedule for very long. One of the reasons that it takes so long to progress.
That is an issue I have with Pathfinder's simplified XP system. It does not give an opportunity for lower levels to catch up as in 3.5. I use XP, but also use a minimum level so if someone gets too far behind I let them catch up a bit.
Typically in the groups I run, players keep an exp tally; when they level up they all level up. Regardless of who missed what ( unless its a massive amount of missed games by 1 person ) they all stay the same level.
I hate being 'mercy leveled' tbh, because my WBL is affected directly and i receive no gp for adventures i wasnt part of
this issue with certain players being OP compared to those who show up less often is also an issue with my group
we also play with a lot of selfish jerks who fight over loot, play evil characters, and steal from each other
that said, if i, as a player show up more than one of my group and he gets 'mercied' to my level for free i get a little upset because i had to earn that XP and i had to expend resources and almost die
to the point of it being more favorable to not show up, even more so if they mercy WBL them also
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To your first issue, this is a definite "Talk to your GM and Group about how attendance should be handled" type situation. XP is only a small part of a larger problem.
As to the crux of the game you want to run, I handle XP in one of two ways:
1) No XP: Level when the plot requires it, or once every fixed number of sessions (2 is about right for monthly games, and 3-4 is about right for weekly games).
2) Group XP: Group XP is easy to track, because it's entirely up to the GM to track. Take your standard level chart, at the end of each adventure add up xp totals, divide by number of players and that's how much XP was earned for the PARTY. The PARTY levels up when the players hit their XP benchmarks. Selfish play goes out the door.
Finally, set expectations about the game these expectations include the following:
Session Length.
Session Frequency.
Campaign Length.
Attendance Rules.
For example:
My Kingmaker game runs every wednesday from 6:30 until 10 PM. Courtesy requires 2 days notice for non-attendance (except of course in case of emergency).
My Jade Regent Game is the second week of every month, Friday nights from 6:30 until Midnight. Event is put on facebook 4 weeks in advance, and cancellation is expected to be called in at least a week in advance (again exceptions made for emergencies).
Players should treat game night with the same respect they'd show a sports team they are in. If you are joining the game you make a time commitment, if you can't honour the commitment then you can't play. Nobody will hold it against you if you can't play because you can't meet time expectations but don't be surprised if you're cut if you prove to be a flake.
Just my advice.
i agree completely
a lot of our players get cut out of the loot because they don't play often enough to even know they missed something, and those characters often end up leagues behind us, to the point where we don't even feel bad when they get mercy leveld to match us
i just hate having to get mercied myself, to an extent, especially when rolling a new character to match the group and NOT getting WBL mercied
mainly because our DMs dont ever, EVER do 1 on 1 sessions
As a GM I always hand out XP equally. If there is no way to justify one player getting the XP that the others get, then that one player will get a chance for himself to make up for it quickly. I also keep track of the gear everyone has, to make sure they all have appropriate WBL.
Players who miss sessionsget NPC'd or in a few cases removed from the group to have their own offscreen challenges, where their XP award will be equal to that of the rest of the group.
I think there is an obsessive compulsive streak that makes me keep everyone exactly equal.
I also frequently hand out karma-slaps to PCs who treat their party mates unfairly.
I track xp so I have a good idea where the players are v. where they should be. I also artificially bump xp to get them to where they need to be within the AP as necessary. If they are rolling over things much to fast, they tend to stay at a given level longer. XP should not dictate the story.
Like some above, I level everyone at the same time. The only exception is level loss due to extraordinary circumstance (raised from dead, special monster abilities).
As Threeshades, I also karma-slap greedy players.
I've always kept track of xp when i run a game at the end of each session i divide the xp by thennumber of players with anyone who was absent (but someone played there character) gets a half share with the extra being divided among the players who showed up this makes for an incentive to show up on a regular basis
Eg if a party of 4 players (3of which show up for the game) earn 2000xp the three that showed earn 583 xp while the one whos character was played by another player gets 250 xp
In my groups we still hang on to XP.
They're dished out at the end of each session.
XP are awarded for monsters killed, social situations managed, traps, hazards overcome etc and quests solved.
This gets summed up and divided by total number of players in the group.
Last but not least there's roleplaying XP. These reach up to a maximum of 25% of the "standard" XP and are awarded to individual players.
Players who are absent (we call that ghoul mode) get awarded 50% of the "standard" XP - that's to balance the relative safety the absent PC enjoys and the chance of suffering a TPK with the group.
Takes 2 minutes.
Ruyan.
Agreed if there absent for good reason then that's different
I was speaking in general terms
I also dish out extra xp for good roleplay and the like