The characters weapon is a special home brewed repeating crossbow
Holds 6 shots and is reloaded as a move action, swift action with rapid reload. So pretty close to core rules just faster reload and 1 extra shot per clip.
Reckless Aim + deadly aim could stack couldn't they?
Cross Bows are always worse than Bows because there aren't any composite crossbows not to mention a whole bunch of extra necessary feats in the already feat intensive ranged department.
assuming gunslinger was allowed to substitute crossbow for all instances that firearms where used would that class stand up to the crossbowmen fighter build?
It would get dex to damage at lvl 5, a few of the Grit powers would be wasted but some of them are also pretty cool still like targeting and evasion not to mention the one that prevents death.
Maybe swap wasted grit powers with bonus feats?
Or over all is the crossbowmen build the best build for a crossbow using fighter?
Would also allow for Grit feats which some are pretty decent. still not sure though if these make up to the nice bonuses fighters get like a ton of free feats
Readied Actions are standard action or less so you get to add dex to one attack instead of strength to all. Not to mention you are not eligible for manyshot perhaps the most powerful in the archery feat.
Actually having to have a free hand to reload is only explicitly mentioned in the fire arms rules. So you could duel wield hand cross bows without worrying.
oo never considered hand crossbows I was assuming repeating crossbows.
repeating crossbows
Load: As long as it holds bolts, you can reload it by pulling the reloading lever (a free action). Loading a new case of 5 bolts is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity.
Note: The repeating crossbow (whether heavy or light) holds 5 crossbow bolts. You can fire a repeating crossbow with one hand or fire a repeating crossbow in each hand in the same manner as you would a normal crossbow of the same size. However, you must fire the weapon with two hands in order to use the reloading lever, and you must use two hands to load a new case of bolts.
assuming it's ruled that the lever could be used when wielding the weapon one handed but swapping out the cartridge still took 2 hands.
though again I need to look into hand crossbows they might work better
Load: Loading a hand crossbow is a move action that provokes attacks of opportunity.
Note: You can draw a hand crossbow back by hand. You can shoot, but not load, a hand crossbow with one hand at no penalty. You can shoot a hand crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two light weapons.
it says u can't load it 1 handed without penalty but doesn't say u need 2 hands to load it. Do you think it would make the crossbows to strong if they where allowed to easily load and use using two hands and say the quick draw feat
At 11th level, when a crossbowman attacks with a crossbow as a readied action, he may add his Dexterity bonus (minimum +1) on his damage roll.
This is a terrible ability from a terrible archetype. At that level the damage witht his ability is something like 3d8+28 assuming the vital strike chain, a +3 weapon, deadly aim, devastating strike , weapon specialization and crossbow training
A similar archer would do just witht he first arrow 2d8+26 , asuming manyshot, deadly aim, 14 str, +3 weapon, weapon training. but when you add rapid shot plus the iterative (not to mention haste) the crossbowman archetype eith a single shot per turn definitely can not compete against an archer
If the fighter wants to use the crossbow I recommend the vanilla fighter or the weapon master archetype.
Crossbow Mastery would even allow a heavy repeating crossbow to be used instead of a light one, but to not push the luck to much perhaps duel wielding light repeating crossbows and having combat mastery allow them to be reloaded while duel wielding would be ok?
If not then heavy duel crossbow with combat mastery
with the rapid reload grit feature of the gunslinger class (assuming this class is allowed to use crossbows instead of firearms.) and signature dead. this would allow for free action reloading and enough damage boost to make up for the bows extra attack
perhaps though better balance would be to allow duel wielding with crossbow mastery with the condition that rapid shot could not be combined with duel wielding.
This should bring it on par or slightly above bows then? more feats but duel wielding would end up in 1 extra attack per round over the bow
so the concept so far is duel wielding light repeating crossbows, using Pistolero gunslinger class modified to allow crossbows to be used, and crossbow mastery allowing 1 of the repeating crossbows to be reloaded as a swift action each round even while the other hand is busy.
Additional prerequisite of quick draw.
Thus required feats become, Combat mastery,Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Reload, Rapid Shot. and TWF line + quick draw that's 9 feats.
gunslinger gets 5 bonus feats meaning the player still has 6 feats for other stuff and will get 7 shots each round just like a normal duel wielder. still might be slightly weaker then bows but the fluff is cool and gunslinger class adds in a few other decent powers.
I came up with this character that goes for one big shot per round.
Tiefling or Elf Ranger(freebooter)X/Unarmed Fighter1. Focus on dexterity and intelligence for your stats, keep wisdom at 12 so you can pick up gravity bow. For combat style grab Focused shot at Lv2 and Crossbow Mastery at Lv6 using the alternate ranger styles. Unarmed fighter allows you entry into Kirin style and you get Kirin strike at Lv9. Feats should be the basics, point blank shot, precise shot, deadly aim. Use the biggest, baddest crossbow you can find.
Your combat rounds go something like this; swift to identify your target, move action to activate freebooter's bane, standard action to fire crossbow with kirin strike, focused shot, deadly aim, and freebooter's bane all tacked on. The combo of kirin strike and focused shot alone nets you intelligence x3 to damage.
Another bonus of the build is 6+int skill points, good HD and Bab, a nice set of passive abilities, and team support. Makes for a great Sniper or Hunter style character.
You could drop the unarmed fighter for 2 levels of Master of Many Styles and get better saves, a few more skill points, and access to Kirin Strike earlier. A level of alchemist could get you a mutagen for more stat increases at the cost of some Bab. Depends on how min/maxxed you're looking to go. Also ask your DM if vital strike can be used with Focused shot, they're both standard actions but the wording is awkward.
Stick in rogue/scout with shot on run. Move out shoot then return to cover. You are almost not exposed to fire. Add sniper goggles for sneak damage at any range.
If you go alchemist, don't forget you can take the Extra Arm or Tentacle discovery to help with reloading. You could also use one of the races with a prehensile tail. (ask your GM first)
A slight problem with making firearms target flat footed ac is that a rogue will sneak attack with every shot (as they sneak attack when the opponent is denied dex which flat footed always does). So every rogue will probably end up going for pistols or merciful pistols (for that sap adept goodness).
Gunslinger Pistolero class is
allowed to us crossbows instead of firearms.
Swaps out he deeds -Deadeye & Quick Clear for bonus Feats.
With Quick draw and crossbow mastery repeating crossbow is allowed to use the reloading lever with 1 hand and can swap cartridges as a swift action. ((fluff wise they put one crossbow away swap cartridges and then quick draws the crossbow at the start of there next round.))
Repeating crossbow holds 6 bolts instead of 5.
Fighter Feats are allowed for the gunslinger regarding his specialized ranged weapon (in this case repeating crossbows)
+1 weapon enchant - bonded weapons. up to +5 worth of enchantment bonuses placed on this weapon are also applied to the weapon bonded with it.
+2 Enchantment Greater Bonded weapon - up to +10 worth of enchantmens placed on this weapon are applied to the connected bonded weapon.
any effect that targets the magic of 1 bonded weapon targets the magic of both. -this is really just to make it less expensive to have duel weapons. weapon uses up 2 of it's max 10 enhancements to not have to purchase magic on both weapons.
That should be all the house rules that effect the character
Character stats are
Str 16
Dex 21
Con 18
Int 15
Wis 17
Cha 15
He rolled pretty decent and these are after lvl and race adjustments
I've seen some builds that use the double crossbow along with the vital strike chain of feats that are okay. Crossbow Mastery will let you reload as a move action. Getting Gravity Bow as a ranger or with a sorc dip is also pretty key. With Greater Vital Strike, thats 16d6 base dmg per shot.
Since you're just using vital strike each round, if you go fighter you can use the Crossbowman's Greater Deadshot ability to add your dex to dmg by readying your shot. It will pound through DR and you can practically dump str, but it soaks up a lot of feats, and isn't as versatile, nor as damaging as your average bow build. Still, I like the image of a skinny little character firing a huge double crossbow, taking targets out one at a time.
Well we are talking level 8 so that's four attacks for the bow user, assuming the same stats we are looking at a level 8 weapon master, using weapon spec, greater and weapon focus, many shot and rapid shot.
You have some beef about gunslingers hitting touch ac, I get that, even if your experience doesn't match with most peoples and doesn't really match with the obvious balances in the game.
You're trying to nerf it and you're trying to shoe horn crossbows into it.
Stop.
The rules aren't going to work, your crossbow, *ahem*, bowslinger? is going to be frustrated at how limited he is and how silly it all is.
Either allow it or not
Either house rule something about touch or don't. But for the sake of all that's holy, stop looking at the double barrell pistol weapon cord cheese and stop trying to duplicate it.
Repeating crossbows are actually beat out by light crossbows with the rapid reload feat. Repeaters only reload as a free action when it has arrows in the clip, which takes the same amount of time to reload as a heavy crossbow. At higher levels this would mean a move action every other round when full attacking. Rapid reload light crossbows are always a free action.
Later, you can move into the crossbow mastery feat to make reloading any crossbow a free action. I would not go with a repeating crossbow even then since it is redundant at that point. These two feats make crossbows about the same as a bow damage wise once you switch to the heavy crossbow after crossbow mastery. At most you would realistically lose maybe 3 DPR per round. That is a tiny percentage of the damage you would be dishing out.
Yeah, for very early levels, when you do not have many iteratives so it takes a few rounds to need to reload, you can use it to avoid getting the rapid reload feat. Maybe after crossbow mastery, you can use them for flavor, since there is mechanical difference between the heavy crossbow and the heavy repeating one. But eventually there will be a time when a rapid reload light crossbow will just be better than a repeater without the support feat. Between those though, you will be slowed down with a wasted round.
Admittedly, the rapid reload could be in any crossbow. If you are going, let's say fighter, and you already have rapid shot and point blank master, then raking rapid reload in a repeater to make it a move, then next level going to crossbow master would not be that bad. There is still a two or three level window when you are just mechanically clunky since you have to stop in the middle of combat, and that is with fighter, the king of feats. Even a gunslingers can get musket reloads down to a free action by level 3 with the right archetype.
Repeating Crossbows are cool, though. That's gotta count for something.
Thats kinda the thought was repeaters are cool
Sczarni lantzkev - As fore firearms me and the player already handled that issue, But in my games only a limited selection of races are able to use firearms, thus the crossbow option is there closest option if not a member of those races. This is due to established fluff for the world and trumps freedom of race/class. We simply altered a few very minor things and the player agreed to use flat footed AC as he agreed that fluff wise in his eyes it made sense and left the cool feel that firearms had. WE arn't all super focused on making the most super strong builds if something seams to powerful my players have always worked with me to talk about it and find a suitable fix. sometimes I turn to forums to get advice and generate ideas so I can suggest stuff and more readily make both player and myself happy.
That said I am seriously thinking I like the idea of a crossbow gunslinger, I get the mental immage of van helsing and similar movies where they are using some odd looking super cool variant of a repeating crossbow.
the main issue is I need repeating crossbow or crossbows in general to be similar in DPS to Bows. Gunslinger Crossbow class sucks if the DPR is super weak compared to bows.
Perhaps the fix is more allowing some form of gunslinger feature that allowed a extra attack equivalent to multi shot, ignoring the thought of duel wielding and going with the single crossbow that could be fired 1 additional time as long as the gunslinger had 1 grit remaining.
Perhaps replace Dead eye and using the Pistolero build
Thus the crossbow could gain 1 shot from rapid shot and 1 from The grit feature gained at lvl 7. Would be 1 lvl behind bow users but they get other cool features so not unbalanced, and if it was slightly less DPR a round that should be ok also since it has other cool gunslinger features to make it worth the loss of DPR
I see the gunslinger with rapid reload as treating the repeating crossbow as a revolver reload wise, then crossbow mastery making it a free action. Cource this means the reload buff for the gunslinger becomes moot perhaps grant it at lower lvl and swap a difrent 1 to higher lvl and change it to grants crossbow mastery.
... Hmm basically I see perhaps needing a archtype made for crossbow gunslingers. perhaps that's better handled in the homebrew suggestions forum since it starts to leave the realm of advice.
or you could just use crossbow archetypes... with the current options of bows, aside from creating new rules you'll never bring them on par with bows or even really "ok" compared to bows.
A paladin with 26str does seem pretty min/max'd at lvl 7 imo, your own table may have its own expectations, but most will agree your table is far from standard (ie epic fantasy or higher)
Take a look at third party products, like way of the gun etc. Or even take a look at the zen archer and then just let it apply to rifles...
Gunslinger class does not have a crossbow archtype and I find the class kinda fun and think it could with small changes make for a fun and full filling crossbow class, specially great option for games where DM don't want to allow firearms but a player wants to use the gunslinger class still.
I'm saying look at other classes for archetypes for crossbow. If you're removing the gun from gunslingers, you're no longer a gunslinger.
hell, you can give them amateur gunslinger feat and just let it apply to crossbows and use existing archetypes. the Gunslinger is based off the fighter to begin with anyhow.
Advantage would be solid DPR perhaps not as great as bow fighters but slow, more controller effects and other similar cool effects. and perhaps even more important it is something different then taking X lvls of this and X lvls of that and a few lvls there to grab a perfect ranged fighter it is a class designed all around ranged combat already and is specifically well suited for crossbows since they are almost identical to firearms mechanically speaking.
I absolutely think firearms aside I would have players very interested int he gunslinger class that used crossbows instead of guns. it is kinda a fun class if a few things where edited to fit with a crossbow.
On that perhaps instead of multi shot it could get a kie like feature using it's grit to gain a extra shot similar to zen archers and junk. might weaken the DPR of the class compared to just being a default multi shot like power but again some DPR loss is ok and expected since the class has some great versatility options
Only reason I said some features need changed was that they made no sense, like clearing the barell could grant a bonus feat, and dead eye might grant crossbow mastery (if using the pistolero archtype as a base.
Quick Clear (Ex): At 1st level -Change to Grants Rapid Reload as a bonus feat
Deadeye (Ex): At 7th level Changed to grants Crossbow mastery as a bonus feat
Expert Loading (Ex): At 11th level, --suggestions?
Lightning Reload (Ex): At 11th level, --Suggestion?
Perhaps bump the Gun Training (Ex) to lvl 4 but otherwise leave it as is.
Lastly allow a gunslinger (crossbow Master) to treat his gunslinger lvls as fighter lvls for feats he takes that apply to crossbows. SO weapon specialization would be ok but must be added to a crossbow only.
What is wrong with the DPR of a crossbow? Assuming that STR is a secondary stat, going around 14, then you would only lose 1 point per attack compared to a composite bow. Look: Heavy crossbow (repeating or crossbow mastery so it fires for free): 1d10= 5.5 per attack. Composite Longbow: 1d8+2=4.5+2=6.5. So what am I missing here? Sure, you could go for stat boosters or ability score increases to get STR higher, but really, the difference remains relatively small small until you start using high end magical items. And many campaigns never even see those in the first place.
Since you also were thinking of a homebrew version of gunslinger, with gun training and all, you would bypass such issues entirely. Adding DEX to damage would make each bolt fired better than an arrow, since you only need 1 stat rather than 2. Your damage would shoot up to 10.5 each shot at level 5. This would happen even earlier since you would be dropping gunsmithing, and the book says that getting guntraining at level 1 is an appropriate replacement (based on the rules for "guns everywhere" setting for firearms)
It only takes two feats to get any crossbow to reload as a free action, letting them use all archery feats. I might have been over reacting before on how long it takes to get crossbow mastery. A human fighter, loading up on the right feats, can get it by level 2 or 3. That is within dipping range for most builds. You could get it by level 5 with the homebrewed gunslinger if you went human, and I suppose repeating crossbows would suffice until then.
Multi shot is where bows get a slight DPR over crossbows but again the gunslinger class fixes that gap relatively nicely by adding the extra grit features making the class more versatile. SO crossbows do a Slight 1 or 2 extra damage per shot due to single stat usage while bows get a extra shot, bows get slight DPR but then add in gunslinger versatility and I think it is right on par with a fighter bow user.
so I suggest it looking something like
Gunslinger Arch-type Crosbow Master
Up Close and Deadly (Ex)
At 1st level
This deed replaces the deadeye deed.
Rapid Reload
At 1st Level, Gain Rapid Reload as a Bonus feet even if you don't meet the normal requirements.
This replaces the Quick Clear deed.
Crossbow training
At lvl 4 gain crossbow training, it works identical to Gun Training except it applies to crossbows instead.
The replaces Gun Training
Crossbow Mastery
At 7th level, Gains crossbow mastery as a bonus feet even if you don't meet the normal requirement
This replaces the startling shot deed.
Twin Shot Knockdown (Ex)
At 11th level,
This deed replaces the menacing shot deed.
Bonus feat
At lv 11 gain a bonus grit or combat feet
This replaces the Expert Loading & Lightning Reload deeds
Could use all that pretty fluff that makes archtypes look better but at it's core it would be the gunslinger with this archtype added along with some lines that stats that all references to firearms apply to crossbows instead.
Str 10-12 works, as long as you cna carry your gear, armor and weapon around. Pump dex, get some con and wis on the side and if you got points spare, get some charisma.
Trait-Dangerously Curious to get UMD as a class skill. Buy some scrolls or a wand of Gravity Bow. This turns your 1d10 heavy xbow into 2d8. You can either go normal fighter or take the weapon master archetype. I prefer the normal fighter, but both work.
You'll have a good AC thanks to full-plate, armor training and a high dex. Mithril armor will let you use more of your dex. You'll have a great to hit and good damage. You can swap out the two Snap Shot feats and Combat Reflexes for defensive feats and or Clustered Shots if you prefer.
This is a legal build and pretty damn good if you want to go xbow. Future feats: Critical Focus and the various 'Critical X' feats.
What is wrong with the DPR of a crossbow? Assuming that STR is a secondary stat, going around 14, then you would only lose 1 point per attack compared to a composite bow.
I think you own post shows the big problem with crossbows. After spending two feats just to be able to make iterative attacks with your heavy crossbow, it's still worse than the longbow, and will continue to get worse as you progress further into the game (especially once Manyshot comes into play and longbow DPR really starts blasting the crossbow out of the water).
From a mechanics point of view, I can't think of a single reason to take crossbows over longbows. Even if you're a class that doesn't start with longbow proficiency, I'd rather spend one feat or trait on getting it than use two feats on making the crossbow only slightly worse than a longbow.
From a mechanics point of view, I can't think of a single reason to take crossbows over longbows. Even if you're a class that doesn't start with longbow proficiency, I'd rather spend one feat or trait on getting it than use two feats on making the crossbow only slightly worse than a longbow.
You like the idea of a ranged-weapon-user who fights from a prone position? Or wants to make optimal use of crit-based debuffs?
Honestly, I think feats like Crossbow Mastery are silly. The idea that you can reload and fire a winch-operated crossbow upward of once a second or two is silly. Sure, this is a fantasy game, but we can do better than that.
Instead, feats and archetypes that improve your ability with crossbows should have focused on dealing more damage with well-placed individual shots, rather like Vital Strike, but with a little more kick. That way they would be distinguished from bows and wouldn't have to compete directly with bows.
And the idea of a mighty crossbow that grants a strength bonus is no more silly than a mighty bow. They could have a certain strength rating just like a bow, with a penalty to hit and a one-step increase in reload time if you don't have the appropriate strength, representing that this x-bow is designed to hold more tension than your average model.
I don't think the crossbow should compete with the bow, exactly - it's a simple weapon, after all - but I don't see the harm in it getting a little more competitive without needing to waste so many superfluous feats, and archetypes should exist that allow them roughly equal a bow archer for those who just want the style. I mean, if a fighter already has proficiency with the bow but wants to use a crossbow because of the cool factor, why not let him?
I don't think the crossbow should compete with the bow, exactly - it's a simple weapon, after all
It might as well. The only people who are going to try and dps with crossbows are martials. Caster classes don't have the feats to keep up, so it wont matter either way with them.
Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
CWheezy wrote:
Chris P. Bacon wrote:
I don't think the crossbow should compete with the bow, exactly - it's a simple weapon, after all
It might as well. The only people who are going to try and dps with crossbows are martials.
Alchemist with a conductive heavy crossbow and a Dex mutagen? You only get so many bombs per day, so it's nice to have decent ranged DPR when not going nova. Not to mention the much better range with a heavy crossbow compared to standard bombs.
I still think gunslinger pistolero With assumption that a crossbow can be substituted for a firearms (repeating light crossbow)
Sub firearm exotic for repeating crossbow exotic
LVL 1 u can blow a grit to do 1D6 extra damage and the damage goes up every few lvls
LVL 5 add dex to damage (which should be 1-3 higher then a bow users str mod wise) Plus add +1 for every 4 lvls after that
Take feats Rapid Realod at lvl 1
Take Rapid shot at lvl 3
Crossbow mastery at lvl 5
Point blank at lvl 7
By LVL 8 you add DEx to damage and have extra shot from rapid shot, 2 base shots and can blow a grit to add 2D6 extra damage
So you have 1 shot less then a longbow however some some cool gunslinger abilities and deal a touch more damage per shot then the long bow.
Further if you use the archtype I made to make gunslinger work better with x-crossbows then you got the few feats for free.
Yes it is actualy a touch less damaging after all the fighter longbow user got a lot of extra feats however the gunslinger adds controle powers in and a few bonus feats of it's own.
Most importantly though it's different, not hugely underpowered, perhaps not fully DPR optimized but did add cool fluff and a different feal then just the typical bow which is pretty commonly used. Feal kinda like van helsing typed character. Pluss when you blow that grit then the DPR kicks up enough to compare specially if you miss.
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CWheezy wrote:
I don't think you have enough feats to keep up with the martial classes as an alchemist, you need extra discover all the time.
He may still be an exception though.
Cleric "archer" with Rapid Reload (Light Crossbow). Unless an elf, half-elf using the Ancestral Arms alternate racial trait, or a cleric of Erastil, it's the same number of feats (Rapid Reload instead of Martial Weapon Proficiency) for pretty much the same damage per each arrow or bolt. The only thing you can't do with a crossbow is use Manyshot.
If your definition of "decent DPR" is "keeping up with" specialized full BAB archers (or a zen archer monk) from 1st-20th level, then IMO your standards are a bit high.
The lack of Many shot is what will put it behind, and after you see the pistelero grit mechanic you'll realize, you should of just gone rogue if you wanted to add precision damage like that
