Sorcerers just don't know that many spells. A wizard can prepare for anything, sorcerers prepare for the same thing, every day.
And it doesn't hurt that wizards get all their spells a level earlier.
Care to support your opinion with data?
Two issues have historically made Wizards better than Sorcerers:
1) Faster spell level progression
2) No limit on spells known, allowing the Wizard to change their spells as needed, theoretically allowing them to have the perfect spell for any given circumstance
If your group allows Paragon Surge, then #2 is actually flipped in the Sorcerer's favor, because they can literally have any spell on the list on the spot with just an action and a 3rd level slot expended, rather than having to leave slots open or waiting until the next day or finding someone to copy the spell from, etc. #1 becomes much less of an issue in those cases, and I believe Sorcerers are actually better, ultimately. It's even better for Oracles since they can use Paragon Surge to get Improved Eldritch Heritage and have any spell from either the cleric or wizard list on the spot.
Without Paragon Surge (and seriously, you really should consider not allowing this spell, or at least modifying its effects so it can't be used on Expanded Arcana), Wizards are still better than Sorcerers in a vacuum, but they're close enough that player skill will have more to do with power level than class choice.
The real difference is Scribe Scroll and the ability to do that with any spell in the spellbook (once prepared). That translates into not having to prepare any utility spells.
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Wizards are still better than Sorcerers in a vacuum, but they're close enough that player skill will have more to do with power level than class choice.
Exactly - and classes do not exist in a vacuum. The player has a lot to do with it, as you pointed out. Also, for players who don't enjoy utility casting, the wizard is far less of a draw.
The real difference is Scribe Scroll and the ability to do that with any spell in the spellbook (once prepared). That translates into not having to prepare any utility spells.
...and hemorrhaging gold.
Why not just leave slots open so you can prepare and cast the utility spells you need when you need them?
It's not that expensive, that hyperbole is misplaced. Wizards don't require much equipment anyway.
The real question is why to leave open slots when you can have scrolls.
Wizards will usually buy scrolls to scribe in their spellbook in order to leverage that advantage in variable preparation, which is a cost the Sorceror doesn't have. If Sorcerors wish to have those niche/utility spells on Scrolls like a Wizard, they can just buy scrolls themselves. Many Wizards also believe in the expediency of scribing backup spellbooks, which is another cost/issue Sorcerors never need to worry about.
I would definitely say that if you play with Rings/Pages of Spell Knowledge (Ult Eq), that both classes are pretty much on par. That also doesn't depend on being a Half-Elf. Combined with on the fly metamagic, and possibly Human bonus Spells Known, Sorcerors can be very flexible.
The real question is why to leave open slots when you can have scrolls.
Why not? They're not mutually exclusive.
You can have scrolls for the cases when you don't have time to prepare that slot, and need a niche spell on the spot.When you do have time, which is often the case in non-combat utility-puzzle-problem situations,
every time you don't rely on a scroll, you are saving yourself money AND crafting time.
Plus, when you cast using your own slots, you can apply your own Feats and Special Abilities.
Even without Paragon Surge (Holy crap wtf) I think that although wizards are great at handling different situations and using prep time to ace encounters, the ability to go all out in most encounters balances the sorcerer. Where the wizard tosses away that one web he prepped and kicks himself for not having it later, the sorcerer tossed 2 in the last encounter and plans on doing it a couple more times in the next one. Sure the wizard has his fireball or his haste, but the sorcerer makes up for it with the shear volume of stuff he can lay down, never really questioning if he should save something for the next fight.
I've always thought of them as equal but different.
The wizard requires more finesse to play well, since you will need to consider what spells to scribe into your book, and then pick which spells you think will be the most useful on a given day. If you have an idea of what you'll be facing, being able to tailor your spell load-out accordingly can be immensely effective. The flipside of that is that if you guess wrong you could wind up with a lot of spells that prove ineffective.
The sorcerer is the complete opposite. He cannot constantly add to his spell list. He can't change which spells he knows on different days to tailor his abilities to a given encounter. However, with good spell selection he can unload a lot more spellpower than the wizard. Sorcerers are traditionally better blasters than wizards. Also, their ability to apply metamagic on the fly can make them adaptable mid-combat in a way that wizards aren't.
Obviously, I'm ignoring the various new items that have been (erroneously imo) added to the game to completely bypass these weaknesses. So if you are playing with all published materials available, ymmv.
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I dont know why People are still fighting over Wizard or sorcerer is better this addition has tried putting a wedge between the two but I have always seen them like this:
Wizard Pros:
Versatility
always gaining spells for later use.
Cons:
Spells can be stolen
Spells that can work for a situation are not memeroized
sorcerer Pros:
high numbe of spells per day
never have to worry about there spells being stolen
Cons
Low amount of spell known
can only change spells after a lvl up
I've always thought of them as equal but different.
The wizard requires more finesse to play well, since you will need to consider what spells to scribe into your book, and then pick which spells you think will be the most useful on a given day...
The sorcerer is the complete opposite. He cannot constantly add to his spell list. He can't change which spells he knows on different days to tailor his abilities to a given encounter. However, with good spell selection he can unload a lot more spellpower than the wizard...
Well, you can say that Sorceror players who DON'T have the finesse to succesfully pick their near-permanent fixed spells known end up dying, because they don't have a bad day like a Wizard, they have a bad life. Obviously, their new spell known selections can be made with the knowledge that previous ones didn't work out well, but besides for the LIMITED capacity for swapping out old spells known, bad choices will persist with them, while for wizards it's at most an issue of sub-optimal wealth expenditure (on an on-going basis), and sub-optimal spells for a sorceror are probably at least occasionally good spells for a wizard to have in a spellbook or on scrolls.
Obviously, I'm ignoring the various new items that have been (erroneously imo) added to the game to completely bypass these weaknesses. So if you are playing with all published materials available, ymmv.
I don't consider that Pages/Rings of Spell Knowledge completely erase the differences of the classes. High Spell Level Pages/Rings are fairly expensive, so a Wizard will certainly have more spells in their spellbook than a Sorceror... It's just that it lets Sorcerors expand beyond their pitiful base spells known progression, enough so that they aren't SO harshly limited by spells known, so that their other advantages can shine fully now that they aren't overly crimped by the spells known. A Wizard really may have every spell available, but the proportionate benefit of that really goes down per spell, a Sorceror being able to increase their spells known by 50% really is a hugely signifigant increase in their ability to deal with a variety of situations well... Certainly when that is on top of Metamagic which they can most flexibly make use of.
And honestly, you don't need those items, the Expanded Arcana Feat is great for Sorcerors OUTSIDE of the Paragon Surge tactic, between that Feat and the items, Sorcerors have a means to address spells known... Just as Wizards have a means to expand upon their inherent spellbook progression: buying/scribing more spells, and pearls of power for slot re-charging. I think the COMBO of optimally applying Expanded Arcana AND Rings/Pages of Spell Knowledge really does improve Sorcerors alot, though. Between Metamagic, Expanded Arcana, and normal Casting Feats Sorcerors do become pretty 'committed' for Feats, IMHO.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor
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Well, you can say that Sorceror players who DON'T have the finesse to succesfully pick their near-permanent fixed spells known end up dying, because they don't have a bad day like a Wizard, they have a bad life.
You are playing a sorcerer, picking spells over time. If you can't figure out by 4th level or so how to pick good spells.... what are the chances that same player is going to make good choices with wizard spells? The wizard does have the advantage of being able to experiment more, but any GM worth his salt is going to let a new player rebuild his character. Heck, even in PFS, there are rebuild rules through first level.
I see sorcerers with bad spell selections, but I can't say as a percentage it's significantly higher than with wizards. If someone isn't bright enough to either ask for advice or figure things out themselves, it doesn't matter what class they pick.
Edit: The items which expand sorcerer's spell lists are a huge boon for players who don't do a great job picking spells. A clever GM can easily air-drop an essential spell or two into a treasure hoard. Its particularly effective if you place them a session after the players have a nasty encounter with a caster who illustrated the effectiveness of said spell.
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Obviously, I'm ignoring the various new items that have been (erroneously imo) added to the game to completely bypass these weaknesses. So if you are playing with all published materials available, ymmv.
If by "completely bypass" you mean "spend a significant amount of gold to expand their versatility"... well sure. They could also do this by purchasing a wand or a staff.
Sorcerers really *can't* unload a lot more spell power than wizards. The gap in spells per day between a specialist wizard and a sorcerer isn't very big, add in the extra castings a wizard gets with a pearl of power and the arcane bond bonus castings and the wizard can effectively cast as much as the sorcerer for a slight outlay of gold.
The page of spell knowledge, ring, and mnemonic vestment bring a bit of the versatility the wizard gets to the sorcerer which is a nice balance.
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Neither is "objectively better" than the other overall. They each have strengths and weaknesses. The main difference in perceived power comes from one thing: preparation.
If you give a wizard knowledge of something one day in advance, he can choose the perfect set of spells for it. Give him a few days, and he'll teleport to the nearest magic academy, learn any spell he needs, shrink a few bombs, and summon an outsider or three. If he knows what's coming up, he's immensely powerful.
On the other hand, deprived of information, the wizard has no choice but to leave spots open, or prepare a variety of spells. If he then comes upon a large number of enemies that require a specific spell or tactic, he will use up his one or two prepared copies, then have to retreat/buff/etc. He risks the majority of his prepared arsenal becoming useless.
Sorcerers are less flexible than wizards in the sense that they cannot pick obscure spells to handle unique challenges and enemies, but more flexible in that they can spam any spell they like.
In the end, it all comes down to preparation.
PS: Both wizards and sorcerers get extra feats and powers through their arcane schools and bloodlines, respectively. Wizards get lots of ranks and knowledge skills; sorcerers have the charisma to be a party face. Wizards get spells a level earlier, but must generally pay to get them in their spellbooks, and cannot eschew materials like sorcerers. Overall, they're pretty balanced in these respects; it comes down to preparation.
Of cousre, Wizards CAN Eschew Materials, they just need to take that Feat.
Tattooed Sorcerors give that Feat up for the Varisian Tattoo Feat,
and the ability to get some free Spell Tattoos, effectively getting some bonus prepared spell slots.
(amongst other abilities, like getting a Familiar in place of 1st BL power, regardless of BL)
Dont forget that Sorcerers dont really have a lot more spell slots than wizards - the difference is rather marginal.
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Ok i am alittle confused what are you guys meaning by having slots open?
EDIT:
So for wizards I can understand that forwarned is for prepared that could be the same for any class. However list be honest how many times has your guys DM given you addvanced warning in-game, that you knew of?
Personally I think the two classes need to be viewed seperatly and stop trying to make them the same. I mean granted I love my evoker wizard but does that make me feel that he is better then a sorcerer no because both have there pros and cons in a party.
@Atarlost
Please explain how CHA less useful stat? If you have a wizard and a sorcerer in the Party your sorcerer is the face which is a crucial out of combat role to have. So I am alittle lose on why you would say it is a less useful skill when that is subjective to the situation.
While paragon surge is very handy people tend to WAY overstate it and throw around spin words like "Broken".
It takes an action to cast and then another action to cast the spell gained from it so its pretty much combat useless.
It eats up more resources. Its more then a fair price to do what a Wizard can do for free and yet still have the slower spell level progression.
Ok i am alittle confused what are you guys meaning by having slots open?
wizards not preparing all their slots in the morning, letting them prepare them later in the day.
So for wizards I can understand that forwarned is for prepared that could be the same for any class.
nothing to do with forewarned, 'prepare' is the term for memorizing spell slots.
@Atarlost
Please explain how CHA less useful stat? If you have a wizard and a sorcerer in the Party your sorcerer is the face which is a crucial out of combat role to have. So I am alittle lose on why you would say it is a less useful skill when that is subjective to the situation.
It doesn't help that Sorcerers don't have the skill points to spare. Adding Diplomacy, Bluff and Sense Motive to the usual list of Perception, Spellcraft, Knowledge (Arcana) etc really stretches those 2 points per level.
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Wizards can be incredibly powerful. Or they can be hosed because the picked the wrong spells, or used the "right" spell earlier in the day.
My experience is that if you have a short adventure day or an "all or nothing" combat, you want the wizard.
If you are doing a crawl, you want the Sorcerer. The 15 minutes of traquility needed to learn a spell isn't a common thing to find in a dungeon. And leaving to come back once you have the right spell memorized means letting your enemy reinforce, retreat, prepare, etc...
YMMV.
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I could memorize 3haste spells but instead I prep just 2 and leave the 3rd one open if situations require remove curse or fly or something. It only takes a min with the discovery.
It's just a made up example above. But I have left a few low spell slots open so I could be ready with mounts for the party or other buffs I wouldn't normally prep.
It has only slightly hurt me once, wishing i had more magic missles. Which I may not have prepared anyway since I didn't know we would face a few ghost moks. We still easily won the fight.
i think there is something to be said here about how the campaign is planned by the GM. I think the GM needs to find a good mix of complete disregard for and catering to the abilities of the PCs, so it feels realistic but players don't feel like their choices were completely useless, and when it comes to a wizard or any prepared caster there is a lot of abilities they have, but only a certain selection they can use each day.
This, unless the GM changes his plans for the current session on the fly can lead to anything ranging from the wizard having the perfect spell for every situation and not having one single useful spell prepared at all.
Sorcerers know they are going to have to live with their spell selection for the rest of the campaign so they tendencially go for spells that are universally useful or come up in situations that ou are pretty much guaranteed to come across sooner or later. It can happen to a sorcerer too, that he has a bad day and his spells known are useless all day, but that is less likely to happen, because there are more to choose from (and they can be cast more than the specific number of times a wizard would have to prepare them), and there are a lot more days to come on which the spells have the potential to be useful.
Personally I always found preparing spells much more severly limiting than just knowing a few less but having much more flexible access to them.
Sorcerers just don't know that many spells. A wizard can prepare for anything, sorcerers prepare for the same thing, every day.
That's no longer true, with Human favored class bonus and Mnemonic Vestment
And it doesn't hurt that wizards get all their spells a level earlier.
THAT is true. And the real reason why sorcerers are worse. They are even, on even levels. But they are worse, at odd levels.
That, and Intelligence is a much better skill for a spellcaster. You get a ton of skill points, a bonus to spellcraft, knowledge arcanas and knowledge planes, etc.
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In most games they really aren't. Theorycrafting is the only place where a particular class stands out as "best" in the game. In actual application most of what gets discussed in that vein really doesn't have any relevance.
Encounters get defeated, challenges get resolved, puzzles get solved and the game moves forward.
sorcerer cons:
Worse action economy when using metamagicYou overlooked the flipside of this. Sorcerers have supreme flexibility with using metamagic, as they can apply it on the fly as opposed to having had it prepared specifically for each spell. A sorcerer with the Silent metamagic can be very hard to shut down.
I had such a character in Living City. Was in a hell of an advantaged position when a Silence effect was cast over the entire town.
Sorcerers have flexibility, but the metamagic flexibility isn't actually used.
I don't know where you got that. I had a sorcerer and I used metamagic constantly. Get the trait that reduce metamagic cost by 1 in your favourite spell, and be happy with it. Take a rod of metamagic, for extra fun. At 8th level, 5d6+75 in 20' radius as a 4th level spell slot is damn usefull. It vaporizes most CR8 creatures.
I think it really washes out and boils down to how much you can get out of your insane int or cha. Put simply that is.
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Sorcerers are totally badass. They aren't dependent on anything. Wizards are dependent on their component pouches, their spellbooks, and their fighters. Wizards are weak. ;)
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Schrodinger
Gsheunheit.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor
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In most games they really aren't. Theorycrafting is the only place where a particular class stands out as "best" in the game. In actual application most of what gets discussed in that vein really doesn't have any relevance.
Mostly. I do think the core 3.5 sorcerer was pretty badly gimped compared to the wizard. Things improved with Pathfinder core, but not massively. Things have gotten much better and while spells known is still a limit, it's not nearly as brutal as it was. Particularly with the last couple supplements where you can purchase spells known or cast from books or scrolls without consuming them.
There are definitely some classes in PF which are below the cut, with regards to power, but sorcerer is not one of them.
In most games they really aren't. Theorycrafting is the only place where a particular class stands out as "best" in the game. In actual application most of what gets discussed in that vein really doesn't have any relevance.Mostly. I do think the core 3.5 sorcerer was pretty badly gimped compared to the wizard. Things improved with Pathfinder core, but not massively. Things have gotten much better and while spells known is still a limit, it's not nearly as brutal as it was. Particularly with the last couple supplements where you can purchase spells known or cast from books or scrolls without consuming them.
There are definitely some classes in PF which are below the cut, with regards to power, but sorcerer is not one of them.
Actually, with human favored class bonus, you have even more spells. You lack high level spells compared to a Wizard, but you get a ton of core (2nd to 5th lvl) spells. And you cast them spontanously. Plus you can buy scrolls too (you pay full price instead of half, but that's not as harsh anyways.
I prefer Sorcerer, but one way in which wizard is hands down better is as a magic items crafter. They get bonus feats to buy with, earlier access to spells, and can choose spells daily to avoid the +5 DC for not having spell prereqs. Also, being Int primary, they have plenty of skill points for Spellcraft and other useful skills all to be maxed.