So for an ocean-going campaign, I'm thinking of building a ranger (possibly freebooter) who specializes in using an underwater crossbow. My current thought is an undine but I'm not totally sure.
I'd probably take the archery style since it has most of the good things the crossbow style has anyway, the only thing it's missing is rapid reload and that can be taken normally.
Feats I'm looking at: Point-Blank Shot(for Prereqs mostly), Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Rapid Reload (Light Crossbow), Rapid Shot(for Prereqs mostly), Crossbow Mastery, Focused Shot (I usually run a higher INT than necessary), and then maybe Snap Shot, Combat Reflexes, Weapon Focus Light Crossbow, Improved snap shot, and/or pinpoint targeting once I get the essentials down.
Any recommendations beyond that, and to specifics of when to take what? The Ranger's prereqless bonus feats make the order on some of them flexible I think. The starting stats (20 point buy) that I was considering (after racial adjustment) are: 11 STR, 18 DEX, 12 CON, 12 INT, 15 WIS, 10 CHA - I prefer not to tank stats unless absolutely necessary, but how do those sound?
I guess the build concept is a little out there, but does anyone have any ideas? I know the underwater crossbowing is a bit of a gimmick, but I don't think it's that bad of one.
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Focused Shot is a wasted feat, I wouldn't bother with it. It's its own special standard action that can't be used with Vital Strike or really anything else for that matter, and it gives you a piddly bonus to damage based on a non-main stat for your build. If you want a way to boost your damage on standard action attacks, take the Vital Strike Chain instead (though the true strength of most archery builds lies in full attacks).
Grab Combat Reflexes before Snap Shot (otherwise what's the point?).
That's all I can think of at the moment.
I was just looking for any static add to damage, since it's otherwise hard to get one with crossbows...
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I was just looking for any static add to damage, since it's otherwise hard to get one with crossbows...
It's not really a static add though since it only works when you use your standard action to take a single shot. That's not going to be super helpful overall. You may consider dipping levels of fighter or splitting with levels of the monk Archetype Sohei, which can gain weapon training in crossbows and flurry with them at level 6. The fighter levels could get you weapon training and allow you to take weapon specialization, which would be great damage boosters (and give you a few more feats to play around with). The Crossbowman Archetype would net you 1/2 your Dex bonus to damage at 3rd level, and Weapon Training in all crossbows at 5th, which would also be helpful.
Since you're thinking of going Freebooter, you don't have to worry about weakening an already weak animal companion, so a dip could be a good investment.
Also, I just noticed you don't have Deadly Aim on your feat list, so prioritize that bad boy, it's going to give you a good chunk of extra damage as well.
Wow, I just posted in the other thread about crossbow min-maxing and didn't see this one. Add in Kirin Style and Kirin Strike to get the most out of Focused Shot.
Good call on Deadly Aim... Though now I'm really trying to see to what extent if any I can not take point-blank shot. What is it prerequisite for? I know I can take Precise Shot and Improved Precise Shot as style feats without it...
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Wow, I just posted in the other thread about crossbow min-maxing and didn't see this one. Add in Kirin Style and Kirin Strike to get the most out of Focused Shot.
Taking Kirin Strike is all the more reason not to take Focused Shot, you can't add your Int to damage twice. And yes, I'm aware that Kirin Strike adds double your INT bonus.
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Good call on Deadly Aim... Though now I'm really trying to see to what extent if any I can not take point-blank shot. What is it prerequisite for? I know I can take Precise Shot and Improved Precise Shot as style feats without it...
It's a pre-req for Rapid Shot (which you should probably be taking). I was going to say you'll need it for a couple other things as well, but it looks like you can skip a lot of those by grabbing the Precise Shot feats with your bonus feats.
Ultimately though, why wouldn't you want a +1 to attack and damage against all enemies within 30 ft.? That's the majority of the playing field on a lot of battle maps.
Hey I had the same thought recently!
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pdvg?Crossbow-Ranger#12
There's my thread and I'm following the build advice Dragonchessplayer threw down for me.
I ended up taking the character in a different direction and went human with heart of the seas rather than undine.
I'm kind of stoked someone else is doing this; what are you thinking for companion or regular spells(when it gets that far)?
Well, I'm using a light crossbow at level 1, partly becayse it's cheaper and partly because it's quicker, and possibly regrettably not taking rapid reload for a while so I'll be turreting more than I really wanted to. Here's the first part feat progression I'm looking at:
1: Point Blank Shot
2(S): Precise Shot
3: Deadly Aim
5: Rapid Reload (Light Crossbow)
6(S): Improved Precise Shot
7: Rapid Shot
9: Crossbow Mastery
I'm using Archery style because Crossbow Style is literally archery style minus a bunch of stuff plus rapid reload, and rapid reload doesn't have any prerequisites.
Human with Heart of the Sea is also a pretty good idea, the extra feat would definitely come in handy for a build like this, since I could have pretty much all of the non-style feats a level earlier or if not have another feat in there like vital strike, rapid reload heavy, or a general-use feat.
We have a party of five-six, so I'll *probably* go with the party-boost hunter's bond, Also so I don't have to almost-compulsorily get Boon Companion. If I did take an animal, I'd definitely ask the GM to open it up a little, since the ranger list is pretty narrow - Sharks are the only one that are good in water and they don't breathe air, so of the default list I'd probably get an eagle; with access to the whole list, and Archelon, Snapping Turtle, or Elasmosauus would be pretty cool. Giant Crab is nice but I don't like intelligenceless vermin.
As far as spells, Rangers get some really nice self-support spells, like Gravity Bow, Aspect of the Falcon (which also comes in convenient bracer form), Keep Watch from Knights of the Inner Sea (in short, you don't need to actually sleep to sleep, but it's a spell that you don't have a lot of and if you get seriously interrupted it's wasted), and Wartrain Mount if you want to ride anything; those are all just level 1. Rangers are Divine Prepared Casters, though, so you can try out different things and see what works best for you.
Doesn't Archery also give you access to PBM? & can't PBM be used with a Crossbow?
If not then getting Crossbow Mastery Earlier without Pre-Requisites might be worth it.
I had had the mistaken idea that Crossbow Mastery worked like Point-Blank Master with added perks, but it doesn't; CBM is for reloading while PBM is for attacking. Knowing that, PBM will probably be my 10th-level Style Feat (Light Crossbow again, because heavy crossbows are silly to use in melee anyway). Until level 10, I guess I'll rely on other weapons when stuck in melee (Weapon Finesse would be handy though, let me tell you).
I slightly overstated the similarity in styles, here's the full list of what each one doesn't give:
Crossbow: Far Shot, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Parting Shot (>6), Point-Blank Master (>6), Manyshot (>6, but completely useless for crossbows anyway)
Archery: Deadly Aim, Rapid Reload
I still maintain Archery is better, due to the general lack of prerequisites for Deadly Aim and Rapid Reload and the fact that Point-Blank Master is pretty sweet. And they both give Crossbow Mastery, for whatever bizarre reason.
Addendum: In doing a check on the PRD instead of d20PFSRD, I noticed that a ranger needs weapon focus as a prerequisite to point-blank master (this was on d20PFSRD, I just didn't notice it), so that complicates things slightly; I guess the easiest way around it is taking weapon focus at 7 or 9 and bumping rapid shot and crossbow mastery each up a slot to still take PBM at level 10. Because it's really good. So that delays me still hanging on to a melee weapon to level 11, which is kind of annoying... Anyway, the feat progression now looks like this:
1: Point Blank Shot
2(S): Precise Shot
3: Deadly Aim
5: Rapid Reload (Light Crossbow)
6(S): Improved Precise Shot
7: Rapid Shot
9: Weapon Focus (Light Crossbow)
10(S): Point-Blank Master (Light Crossbow)
11: Crossbow Mastery
It's kind of annoying, and weapon focus would be better earlier, but I can't think of a better way to arrange it, really. Also annoying: Snap Shot and Combat Reflexes and Vital Strike, which seem like good places to go past level 11 when I have everything I think is necessary, take up regular slots since they aren't on either list, and I don't really have anything particular to do with level 14 or 18 style feats. I guess Shot On The Run, Parting Shot, and Pinpoint Targeting (which I could take naturally) are OK, though.
Of course, that assumes the campaign gets that far, which is far from guaranteed!
It's nice, but you're 100% all in for using the crossbow.
If you can spare even a single feat, I'd recommend Power Attack. Not everything can be defeated with a crossbow, and you're not leaving yourself a lot of room for Plan B.
In a great big party, you might be okay. With 3 or 4, I'd reconsider. Especially underwater, visibility can be poor. Which means as soon as you detect an opponent, they're able to charge you.
Sure sure, at 10th level you've got a solution for that. But if you're starting at 1st, that's a LONG way off.
I agree, but I really don't have a feat to spare that I can find (again, if I were human, but I'm not). We do have a party of 5-6 though, so I have some help... Do you have anything specific you'd recommend trading off or leaving out?
Maybe not leave out, but push back.
In an aquatic campaign, I'm going to guess that you're usually on a boat, or underwater, with the occasional jungle island.
Push deadly aim back. Two bolts a round is better than bonus damage. By 6th level, you'll have rapid shot, an iterative attack, and possibly haste. That's four attacks a round.
Once there, You have the option of deadly aim as your ranger bonus feat if there's never cover, or improved precise shot if there is. Take power attack at 7th.
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You've got a feat intensive build. Consider ranger two/fighter two to start, followed by lots more ranger.
Haha, the last non-me-realizing-I-needed-prerequisites change I made was to put deadly aim in, and as early as possible!