Duelist Parry + TWF?

[Mimo Tomblebur]

[Disclaimer] As I have searched the message boards on this issue, I have found several debates, but not an official ruling. I’m not looking to start a new redundant debate, I just want an official ruling I can build my PFS character on, one way or the other.

Question: If a Duelist has the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, and is using Precise Strike, and is making a full attack, may he still use his off-hand weapon to Parry?

The answer depends on whether the off-hand parry counts as making “an attack”. If it does, then using Precise Strike prevents it. But if the off-hand parry is an attack roll that is not “an attack”, then it could be considered allowable. It sounds like people have ruled both ways in their home games.

I won’t be heartbroken whichever way the cookie crumbles, I just want to be sure my character is being the best Duelist he can be for the PFS.

Thanks.

[Bbauzh ap Aghauzh]

I doubt you are going to get a PFS specific ruling on this. This is a rules issue, not a campaign specific issue.

That being said:

The intent of Precise Strike is obvious, that you don't get the extra damage if you attack with your offhand, or carry a shield in your offhand.

Basically the Duelist prestige class is not meant to be a two-weapon fighting class.

So here we come to the crux of your argument.

If you parry, is that "attack" considered an attack or not. Can you choose to use an offhand weapon to make the parry.

No.

Simply put, the offhand weapon cannot be considered an attack that you use up for your parry, if you want to precise strike.

For you don't get an offhand attack when using precise strike.

You have to use one of your attacks with your primary weapon (or rather whichever weapon you are choosing to take your full attack action with) for your parry.

Basically don't build your Duelist with Two-Weapon Fighting. They are mutually exclusive if you want to use many of the Duelist abilities that preclude using an offhand weapon or shield.

[Mahtobedis]

what if it was an unarmed strike?

[Drakkiel]

Using an "unarmed strike" counts as TWF...your unarmed strike counts as a "light weapon".

and having TWF feat doesnt give you the ability to two-weapon fight...it only lessens the penalties when you wield and attack with 2 weapons

as for the OP no...Bbauzh ap Aghauzhj is correct...the duelist prestige class abilities are for wielding only one weapon

[Mimo Tomblebur]

Thanks, Bbauzh. I'm certainly content to stick to this interpretation. If an alleged "optimization guide" hadn't brought up the off-hand parry in the first place, I wouldn't have ever thought of it.

[Bbauzh ap Aghauzh]

Mimo Tomblebur wrote:

Thanks, Bbauzh. I'm certainly content to stick to this interpretation. If an alleged "optimization guide" hadn't brought up the off-hand parry in the first place, I wouldn't have ever thought of it.

No problems Mimo.

Sometimes these types of things are never just a simple interpretation.

You have to read into the intent of the class or rule or whatever with an objective eye, and then make further rulings from there.

And whenever you go into interpretation land, you end up with table variance.

In PFS, its probably best to go with the more conservative interpretation, so that you don't end up not being able to do something you built your character to do.

[Michael Sayre]

Bbauzh covered it pretty well here. Precise Strike specifically says "When making a precise strike, a duelist cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand or use a shield" so she couldn't possibly "give up" an off-hand attack to Parry, because she cannot have an off-hand weapon while using Precise Strike.

There is some wiggle room here for an Unarmed Strike though, as what is proscribed is specifically "a weapon in her other hand or use a shield". Potentially you could have a (for example) Monk Duelist wielding a Sibat in one hand and using Snake Style to deliver piercing Unarmed Strikes without violating the RAW for the Duelist or the Precise Strike ability. You are kind of working against the intent of the class though, which is for it to be a single weapon combatant.

[Darksol the Painbringer]

Pretty much what Bbauzh and SSalarn said. As far as Precise Strike itself, you can only use the one hand to make attacks, and that's it. You cannot use off-hand attacks, because firstly, you cannot apply TWF to Precise Strike (meaning no off-hand attacks are occurring that you can sacrifice), and secondly, your off-hand attacks (regardless of occurring or not) even being Unarmed Strikes, RAW you cannot use Unarmed Strikes (unless you have the Monk's Unarmed Strike) as that consists of a weapon in your hands (whereas the Monk's Unarmed Strike specifically states it does not have to be a weapon in your hands; that the Monk can do Unarmed Strikes, even with their hands full).

I don't think it to be breaking the intent of the class for them to be using weapons outside of the ones in their hands, such as natural weapons not consisting of Claws/Slams/etc., or Unarmed Strikes with their legs or head or whatever other body parts. The issue would still boil down to whether you can utilize such weapons for parrying, and chances are I wouldn't think so.

Of course, while you cannot use your other hand for attacking, using Crane Style, Deflect Arrows, etc. is still viable, since it helps another area that the Duelist may be very weak at...