Two thoughts:
1) A lot also depends on what else the rogue does with her life. Presumably, she also adventures (since I have a hard time seeing a campaign based entirely around her prostitution/theft habits) and her actions in that capacity also effect her alignment. If this theft binge is just a sidelight and she spends the rest of her time slaying dangerous monsters, rescuing innocent civilians and generally saving the world (like a lot of PCs) the entire picture is very different, than if during the rest of her time she clubs baby seals for their fur and runs confidence games on senior citizens.
2) I tend to think of the alignments as a full 2-dimensional map/chart, rather than just a label. I would characterize her actions as chaotic evil, since she robs people for her own benefit, but relatively close to neutral on the good-evil axis, since she seems to be trying to avoid hurting her victims (although what will happen when one wakes up and catches her in the act?) and generally only victimizes those she thinks can afford it.
Also a few thoughts to consider if you think they would be fun additions to the game, or if you want to discoursge the activity, based on the premise that prostitution is an inherently dangerous profession, only made more so by her decision to rob her johns.
-- What happens when she runs into a john who wants to rough her up a bit? Maybe one with a few levels of fighter.
-- What happens when she has a john who wants to take it to a whole different level of kink and bring out the whips and chains (hope she's been keeping her Escape Artist up to snuff)? What if that guy drugs her wine?
-- What if one of her wealthy victims hires thugs to find her and exact revenge?
-- What if the local pimp takes offense to her being an "independent" and decides she needs to join his stable, and sends the muscle?
-- What if one of her johns becomes obsessed with her and becomes a dangerous stalker?
-- What if a jealous spouse (say a sorceress) catches them in the act and wants...
While I have a minor disagreement (I would suggest the rogue's actions are firmly in the neutral moral band, only slightly evil of centre - theft is generally more about law/chaos), I really like just about all of your suggestions for consequences, not as punishment or discouragement, but just because those kinds of shenanigans breed those kinds of results.
Great ideas! I hope the OPer uses some :)
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Frankly it would hurt me less to get hit with a stick than to be robbed of the money that lets me pay rent.
It must also be a matter of proportion for comparisons to make sense.
The equivalent injury to the theft that robs you of the money that lets you pay rent (ie, allows you and your family to not be homeless) would likely be something like breaking both your arms and wrists.
So do you still prefer the injury to the robbing ?
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I'd hardly say stealing a few coins from a nobleman is "robbing him of his rent money".Frankly it would hurt me less to get hit with a stick than to be robbed of the money that lets me pay rent.Saying "i only rob people that can afford it" or at least i think they can is no better than "i randomly stab people that i think can survive it"I tend to believe that stealing from people (without violence) is better (ie, less evil) than actually injuring them
So stabbing a few HP off the warrior is ok since he has so much more? I mean it is hardly murder.
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Frankly it would hurt me less to get hit with a stick than to be robbed of the money that lets me pay rent.It must also be a matter of proportion for comparisons to make sense.
The equivalent injury to the theft that robs you of the money that lets you pay rent (ie, allows you and your family to not be homeless) would likely be something like breaking both your arms and wrists.
So do you still prefer the injury to the robbing ?
It doesn't take much, especially if you are not wealthy. And i find the "well they can afford to lose it because my toy i want (and not earn) is more important" to be an evil mind anyhow. We are not talking a starving person stealing bread here
I mean, stealing can be an evil act. but is the Op example enought to make this rogue ChAOTIC EVIL? i think not.If one routinely commits evil for their own benefit what are they but evil?
Not all mercenaries and sellswords are evil. And they kill for money.
To the OP: stealing is not evil by itself. Robin Hood isn't evil, he was CG. Oliver Twist wasn't evil, he was N. If the character kills them, or torture, harm, damage them in some way, it's evil. He does not. For me, it's just a rogue that gets his money through stealing. He even use a non-violent method, purposelly leaving them unharmed (he could hit them in the head with a club and steal them the money, with the same benefits for him, and more harm for the victim) It's something UNLAWFUL, but not *evil*. Chaotic Neutral is a perfect alignment for this, IMHO
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Saying "i only rob people that can afford it" or at least i think they can is no better than "i randomly stab people that i think can survive it"
It is. That's why in most countries "attempt to steal" has a MUCH lower jail punishment than "attempt to kill".
In most countries penal codes, stealing 500$ or less isn't even a felony, just a misdemeanor. Stabbing someone gets you to jail, even if he survives. There's no way attenting vs someone property is equally evil to attempting vs someone life.
Frankly it would hurt me less to get hit with a stick than to be robbed of the money that lets me pay rent.Saying "i only rob people that can afford it" or at least i think they can is no better than "i randomly stab people that i think can survive it"I tend to believe that stealing from people (without violence) is better (ie, less evil) than actually injuring them
I'm with Andrew. While traveling this summer, my wallet was stolen, probably by a pickpocket. It caused me great distress, cost me considerably in both time and money, and has had a much more lasting effect than a minor stab wound. Having experienced both, I would rather be stabbed again. Stealing is evil. Like most rules, this one has exceptions.
As for the OP's situation, I'd say stick with CN unless she does something more malicious. The character's actions are very much in keeping with the genre.
*Aside. For me, if it is something that I would feel justified, not obligated, but justified if other options weren't practical/working, using lethal force to stop, then it is evil, probably. This includes, but is not limited to: Murder, manslaughter, rape, assault, battery, breaking and entering, theft, physical/sexual/emotional/verbal abuse, kidnapping, etc.
Note, these are things that happen in stories, a lot, and mostly we're okay with it because 1) It seems justified by the situation. 2) It's a story, not real life. Stop worrying about morality and let me play Conan.
Two thoughts:
1) A lot also depends on what else the rogue does with her life. Presumably, she also adventures (since I have a hard time seeing a campaign based entirely around her prostitution/theft habits) and her actions in that capacity also effect her alignment. If this theft binge is just a sidelight and she spends the rest of her time slaying dangerous monsters, rescuing innocent civilians and generally saving the world (like a lot of PCs) the entire picture is very different, than if during the rest of her time she clubs baby seals for their fur and runs confidence games on senior citizens.
2) I tend to think of the alignments as a full 2-dimensional map/chart, rather than just a label. I would characterize her actions as chaotic evil, since she robs people for her own benefit, but relatively close to neutral on the good-evil axis, since she seems to be trying to avoid hurting her victims (although what will happen when one wakes up and catches her in the act?) and generally only victimizes those she thinks can afford it.
Also a few thoughts to consider if you think they would be fun additions to the game, or if you want to discoursge the activity, based on the premise that prostitution is an inherently dangerous profession, only made more so by her decision to rob her johns.
-- What happens when she runs into a john who wants to rough her up a bit? Maybe one with a few levels of fighter.
-- What happens when she has a john who wants to take it to a whole different level of kink and bring out the whips and chains (hope she's been keeping her Escape Artist up to snuff)? What if that guy drugs her wine?
-- What if one of her wealthy victims hires thugs to find her and exact revenge?
-- What if the local pimp takes offense to her being an "independent" and decides she needs to join his stable, and sends the muscle?
-- What if one of her johns becomes obsessed with her and becomes a dangerous stalker?
-- What if a jealous spouse (say a sorceress) catches them in the act and wants...
What if one of the johns only pays (and is robbed of) forged coins. Dragging the pc into a giant investigation involving massive devaluation of the currency, xorns and the best thief of the realm twenty years ago (now semi-retired).
So stabbing a few HP off the warrior is ok since he has so much more? I mean it is hardly murder.I'd hardly say stealing a few coins from a nobleman is "robbing him of his rent money".Frankly it would hurt me less to get hit with a stick than to be robbed of the money that lets me pay rent.Saying "i only rob people that can afford it" or at least i think they can is no better than "i randomly stab people that i think can survive it"I tend to believe that stealing from people (without violence) is better (ie, less evil) than actually injuring them
I don't understand your argument. You stated that you'd rather be stabbed than stolen from, and implied that the rogue was "stealing rent money" (so, everything he has I guess), then when I questioned that you likened it to being okay to be stabbed...?
Regardless, I think the OP has made up his mind already, so any more arguing on my part is a waste of time. I hope he at least gives her ample warning, and possibly a chance to bring a more appropriate character into his setting.
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LNC = Act
GNE = Intention
Breaking the Law and intending to cause harm = CE
Breaking the Law and intending to benefit yourself = CN
Breaking the Law and intending to help others = CG
In the OPs example, I'm only seeing CN actions. There doesn't appear to be any intention to harm the person (she's not doing it so they suffer), only to benefit herself (she's doing it to get rich).
These are the alignment descriptions from the SRD.
A chaotic neutral character follows his whims. He is an individualist first and last. He values his own liberty but doesn't strive to protect others' freedom. He avoids authority, resents restrictions, and challenges traditions. A chaotic neutral character does not intentionally disrupt organizations as part of a campaign of anarchy. To do so, he would have to be motivated either by good (and a desire to liberate others) or evil (and a desire to make those others suffer). a chaotic neutral character may be unpredictable, but his behavior is not totally random. He is not as likely to jump off a bridge as he is to cross it.
Chaotic neutral represents freedom from both society's restrictions and a do-gooder's zeal.
and
A chaotic evil character does what his greed, hatred, and lust for destruction drive him to do. He is vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredictable. If he is simply out for whatever he can get, he is ruthless and brutal. If he is committed to the spread of evil and chaos, he is even worse. Thankfully, his plans are haphazard, and any groups he joins or forms are likely to be poorly organized. Typically, chaotic evil people can be made to work together only by force, and their leader lasts only as long as he can thwart attempts to topple or assassinate him.
Chaotic evil represents the destruction not only of beauty and life, but also of the order on which beauty and life depend.
Acting as a prostitute and ripping off your clients - really doesn't come anywhere near the CE definition. In fact it seem to fit squarely in the middle of CN.
It is unpleasant, unsavoury vaguely distasteful and something I would be taking steps to reduce in my game. But it isn't CE.
For a low level character to do it a few times to get some gold to equip up - OK. More than a few times there would start to be repercussions - because someone would be looking for that little tart. Probably a band of half-a-dozen thugs directed by someone from the local thieves guild who knows everyone and everything. After all, I bet she hasn't paid her guild dues :)
