Hello. Never posted here, so am not overly sure of formalities. Either way, I am looking to build a level six "utilities tank." By that, I mean a character with high AC (preferably 25+), a fair number of skill points per level, and hopefully some spellcasting. Now, I know what you're thinking: "That's everything. You can't have everything." Well... My DM basically told me to build it, and I agreed before really thinking about how difficult it would be in Pathfinder. I'll list some of my peculiarities below.
I nearly always make INT-based characters. I just can't stand having a severely limited number of skillpoints, so things like Paladins have always rubbed me the wrong way. 4+ is only okay if you've got at least a +2 INT, and even then, it's not great. What I'm trying to say here is, all of my favorite characters have been skills monkeys - they've been skills monkeys HARD.
The DM has told me that there will be a lot of challenges we'll only be able to get around via a good strong dose of magical problem solving. Example: In last night's game, we jury-rigged an airship out of a levitating rowboat and a decanter of endless water that was set to full-blast. (We were going through an area where spells weren't likely to work, but in which magic items only occasionally fizzled, and popped back on a moment later. Or, we were supposed to. We flew over it.) So, magic is kind of a requisite, whether I like it or not. Normally I do, but I'm already building two things, and a third...? Much as I wanted to play a crafter, we already have a Wizard with Craft Wondrous Items. He's an evocationist, though; he mostly just throws fire at our enemies. Boring way to play a caster in my opinion, but I digress. We also have an Alchemist, but she can't really be relied upon to... well, even remember she's got formulas, most of the time. She's basically just a bomb-lobber. Again, I don't know how that's fun, but I guess that's just me.
So now, AC. The only other characters we have are the Wizard and the Alchemist. We had a Barbarian and a Bard, and I was playing a Ranger. My ranger was really optimized for his Favored Terrain, but really not for anything else. Anyway, B&B left due to time constraints. Now we have no melee combatants and I need to make a character that can fill the role. That means having a high AC.
For last night's game, I threw together a Menhir Savant Druid with the Cave domain. Why? Because the DM told me to make something I thought would be fun. Problem? I didn't know about the game yesterday until just a few hours beforehand. My car's still 200 miles south of here. Talked to my DM on the phone for half an hour, going over story stuff he wanted me to know, then my best friend called in tears over some family stuff, and it took about an hour to calm her down. Then I had fifteen minutes to try to throw the character together, before I said "screw it," threw my stuff in my backpack and ran (much as I could with the sidewalks as slippery as they are) for two miles before getting confirmation of a ride from another player. (If I say I'm going to be somewhere at a certain time, damn it, I'm going to be there.) All that means is, my character was poorly hashed together and has nearly no backstory at all. The DM has a standard policy of "you can swap out any character you make within the first two games," though, so I should be able to swap him out.
Notes: I had +1 Darkleaf Hide Armor and a +1 Darkwood Heavy Shield - the Wizard's WALKING AROUND AC was higher than mine. I don't know how he did it, but... whatever. I also rolled poorly for hit points, and even though I had a bonus to Con (admittedly a small one), I still had the same number of hitpoints as the Wizard with a Con of 10. -.-
We're using a point-buy, with 16 points. Stuff.
TL;DR - AC, skill points, and now apparently magic. How do?
Oh, and I have to be able to tie it into a story I don't really know or understand. I've been told that the themes to touch on include "Aroden, Iomedae, Earth, Humans, Dwarves, and Progress." I have no idea what that means.
I really like this DM, and the group is good, but... I always wind up being the one asked to play something else, because my characters are always useless. I can optimize really well, normally, but my characters still never get the spotlight because I'm not really allowed to optimize. That is, I'm told a set of parameters that's too broad, so then when I get into the game, I'm bad at everything. I'm getting really tired of being forced to take a tertiary position. :(
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Don't make anything, then. Bring a concept for a character (class/race/etc not required), and sit down and say "I ain't making a character until we all decide on a niche I can fill. I'm not covering for everyone elses' weakness at the expensive of my own fun."
Talking to your group about problems like this is ALWAYS the right thing to do, because stewing in silence doesn't make anything better for anyone.
I'll second Ranger.
Inquisitor is another option. Medium armor and shield, with the ability to boost AC further via Judgment; 6+Int skill points per level; and 6-level divine spellcasting.
A dervish dancing Kensai Magus is not the most optimized choice, but they are Int based (thus get lots of skills) and stack Dex and Int (their only two stats that matter) for AC--plus, magic.
Otherwise, I agree, Ranger and Inquisitor are great choices, and I'll throw Bard in there, too.
Maybe a Cavalier with the Honor Guard Archetype?
You could add Order of the Blue Rose or Order of the Staff for good caster synergy.
Bard with a 20 dex, chain shirt, and buckler = 25 ac, 6+ skills, +3 to all knowledge skills, and access to magic. How you get to 20 dex by lvl 6 should be pretty easy, and with your wealth I'm sure you can get well past 25.
Things that can cast, tank, and skill-monkey to some degree: alchemist, bard, ranger, druid, summoner, magus, eldritch knight (witch or wizard), rage prophet, oracle and inquisitor.
Rangers: Aren't bad. Would definitely have to select archetypes that replace favored terrain and favored enemies. One of the problems I had with the last one was I was lead to believe we'd be doing a lot of stuff in the forest... then we had one scene there and never went back. I'll look more into it, but I've played Rangers a few times in the past and just always found them... somehow lacking. I've always thought they felt like a Rogue with no sneak attack, some bonus feats, and an arbitrary focus on nature.
Inquisitors: There's an Inquisitional order that's big in the game. Problem is, DM's running two campaigns side by side in the world, with the eventual goal of mixing them. Two of the people in the other group are Inquisitors. :/ That, plus I can't tweak the stats enough to have a good INT, and I have a hard time playing characters with an INT of less than 14.
Synthesist: Had one in another of the DM's games, once. Everyone basically agreed that it was broken. DM gimped him by turning him into an emu. That was fun... for other people. Mostly I just thought it was dumb. Spent three games running around as an emu because apparently we had to do some story thing to fix it, but we never figured out what that was or how to do it.
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Infiltrator Ranger is pretty fantastic, and doesn't use the Favored Terrain feature at all. And I don't know a campaign where Favored Enemy: Humanoid (human) wouldn't get you pretty far.
You really don't NEED 14 Int if you've got 6+Int skill points a level. You can pretty easily grab all the necessary toys with just 10 Int as a Ranger (Handle Animal, Perception, Survival, Stealth, Knowledge (Nature) and one other skill, without even taking Int into account) and more Int than that probably isn't super necessary.
If you're dead-set on being a tank-y type, you're going to want to worry about your physical stats more than your mental ones. You'll need 12-14 Wis so you can cast spells, but other than that, you need:
- a pretty strong Str to be able to do damage worthy of being a threat
- a decent Dex for good Reflex saves and AC
- a good Con score for Fort saves and generally having enough HP to take the beating you're supposed to take in the role
I built a Bard and the DM shot it down for lack of story ties. We aren't allowed to have any stat-boosting items.
I looked at the Magus. Kensai, specifically. Problem is, they don't get many utility spells. Means I'd basically be competing with the wizard for damage output, and even if I somehow got 18s in DEX and INT, my AC would still be lower than his. Because something. I don't know what he's doing. Thank you for the suggestion, though, mplindustries. I appreciate stat stacking for INT.
Thank you, everyone. I don't want to make it seem like I'm just arbitrarily shooting things down. I'm just trying to get ideas. I spent literally days pouring over builds, only to have all of them shot down. I was going to go with a Lore Warden Fighter, built into a Student of War, originally. Two and a half hours before the game last night, the Dm inhaled through his teeth and said he wasn't sure about that because I'd wind up just competing with the Wizard in all his skills. I'm thinking about just saying "Too bad" and doing it anyway. We would have different roles - what do I care if he has decent knowledge bonuses?
Why did he shoot the bard down? Bards are lore keepers, diplomats, and everything he wants you to be. Why don't you just have him build your character for you then .
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Do that.
Really. It's what you WANT to play. That alone weighs more than any perceived need of the party. Tell the wizard to summon things to use as meat shields if they want a wall between them and the big bad nasties.
Honestly, the wizard is probably running around with a decent Dexterity and Mage Armor up (which is likely 18 AC at the absolute best), which isn't really all that impressive. My third-level Oracle of Life has 18 AC and seems to get hit all the time.
Because the Bard I built was a "toys class." That is, a Magician with a focus on Link-style adventuring, Craft Wondrous Items, and a penchant for gambling. I was eventually going to build a thing with use Activated Force Hook Charge, just to have a hook shot. Because hook shots are awesome, and there needs to be a version of that spell that isn't THIRD LEVEL. Ugh. Wonderful spell, nowhere near third level power for anyone but a Magus. Even for a Magus, second level tops.
Basically, he didn't think the character would tie well into the story I still know nothing about. Or something.
It sounds like the party could easily fill the slack if they expanded their characters a little to try.
Pick as many things that you can specialize in that the party needs that still allows you to make a character you'll enjoy playing, and do that. Whatever you don't manage to cover, the party will just have to fill, or make do without.
Edit: When I join a game in progress, I usually ask the DM what hooks are available for me to tie into the story. Return to him with the bard and ask him how you can make it work.
I looked at the Magus. Kensai, specifically. Problem is, they don't get many utility spells.
Do I really need to go through the list and show you all the utility they get? I mean, at first level alone they get Grease, Floating Disk, Unseen Servant, Mount, Silent Image, Expeditious Retreat, Feather Fall...
What utility are you missing?
Means I'd basically be competing with the wizard for damage output
Er, for what? Damage? He's a blaster wizard? Weird. I mean, I guess they exist, but it's hardly optimal--and you'll easily out damage him until mid levels when it'll probably be a draw if he knows what he's doing (and you staying ahead if he doesn't).
and even if I somehow got 18s in DEX and INT, my AC would still be lower than his.
How? You can have Mage Armor, too.
I don't know, is this Wizard the GM's significant other or sibling or something? It sounds like they're getting special treatment.
@Petty Alchemy: I actually did. He did a lot of verbal meandering and failed to actually communicate anything.
Oh, and how the game started yesterday? With the Alchemist and Wizard each being granted a set of Gloves, Boots, and a Cloak of Elvenkind. That's 12.5k worth of rewards for the last game, that I didn't get because I "wasn't there." Keep in mind, my old character was, and everyone already had about 16k worth of stuff each, just from previous quests. So the 16k I had to work with was pretty much useless. Even as a crafter, making things myself, I wound up with significantly less in the way of magic items than the rest of the party.
The more I think about it, the more I want to just tell him "I'm making what I want, and when the character comes in, they're doing so with a full set of Elvenkind gear in their backpack. No, I won't be paying for it; I did some unnamed favor for the elves and they gave them to me, because apparently that's how they roll."
@mplindustries: Not quite. Best friend, though. I'm kind of the odd man out in the group. Which is stupid, because I've known every other player for more than two years. I think his character may have been made back when the DM was still allowing people to roll for stats or something. That's the only way I can explain it.
You shouldn't let him get away with not communicating clearly.
"Sorry, I don't understand what the problem is with the bard. What can be done to fit the bard into the story?"
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Mate, you could probably ask us all year and never get an answer to suit you or your DM.
This is clearly a situation where you feel you're being forced to play second fiddle to others, and you sound unhappy about it. Tell your DM what you're feeling and try to come to an agreement that way. If that fails, then you really need to rethink playing with this group.
Something you can do to ease the situation is come to the table with your character all stated up and tell your DM to come up with the story that makes him fit his campaign. If he's not giving you enough to work with, then tell him to sort it himself.
A suggestion for character is a cleric or paladin of the gods he mentioned. You can build a battle cleric if you want. More importantly, since they want you focusing on a tanking roll, play him that way, and not as the auto heal bot that other players sometimes expect. Make him lawful neutral with the negative channel for damage output.
Cheers
Ask him what classes he thinks are able to adequately cover those three requirements (AC/skills/spells) without stepping on the toes of the other characters, while still being able to tied into the plot that he has going on.
Obviously he has some character concept that he wants you to make, but he's being uncommunicative and unhelpful by not telling you what it is.
If he doesn't have an answer? Then, well, that's pretty much free rein to play what you like.
Unless i misread one of your posts (quite possible sadly) you never said what races and books you are allowed to use.
Any official Paizo books, but only the core races plus Tengu and Grippli. Frankly, I'd battle turtle a Kobold were I allowed. Sure, they're not optimized, but whatever, I like them.
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Mate, you could probably ask us all year and never get an answer to suit you or your DM.
This is clearly a situation where you feel you're being forced to play second fiddle to others, and you sound unhappy about it. Tell your DM what you're feeling and try to come to an agreement that way. If that fails, then you really need to rethink playing with this group.
Something you can do to ease the situation is come to the table with your character all stated up and tell your DM to come up with the story that makes him fit his campaign. If he's not giving you enough to work with, then tell him to sort it himself.
A suggestion for character is a cleric or paladin of the gods he mentioned. You can build a battle cleric if you want. More importantly, since they want you focusing on a tanking roll, play him that way, and not as the auto heal bot that other players sometimes expect. Make him lawful neutral with the negative channel for damage output.
Cheers
Unhappy is an understatement.
Have you considered finding a better group to play with? Even online? Either play what you want to play or move on; this GM is not being reasonable without giving you some much better guidelines and they can't be giving other people in the group special treatment. They should be able to play second fiddle to you as much as you to them. If that's not happening, bail.
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Half-elf
Alchemist (Bramble Brewer)(Internal Alchemist)
-Stats-
STR 10
DEX 16 (+4 leveling) = 20
CON 13 (+1 leveling) = 14
INT 14 (+2 racial) = 16
WIS 10
CHA 08
-Feats / Discoveries-
01 Martial Weapon Prof Scimitar, Weapon Finesse
02 Tanglefoot Bomb
03 Dervish Dance
04 Spontaneous Healing
05 Combat Expertise
06 Healing Touch
07 Dodge
08 Preserve Organs
09 Combat Reflexes
10 Enhance Potion
11 Mobility
12 Greater Mutagen
13 Spring Attack
14 Extend Potion
15 Whirlwind Attack
16 Eternal Potion
17 Lunge
18 Grand Mutagen
19 Weapon Focus Scimitar
20 Preserve Organs, True Mutegen
-Extracts-
1- Shield, Cure Light Wounds, Ant Haul, Expeditious Retreat, Detect Secret Doors
2- Cure Moderate Wounds, Barkskin, Aid, Blur, Cat's Grace
3- Cure Serious Wounds, Fly, Heroism, Elemental Aura, Draconic Reservoir
4- Cure Critical Wounds, Stoneskin, Greater Invisibility, Freedom of Movement, Greater Darkvision
5- Elemental Body, Spell Resistance, Sending, -, -
6- Heal, Elemental Body, Caging Bomb Admixture, True Seeing, -
-Method-
Character will have a 50% chance to ignore sneak attacks and turn crits in2 regular attacks, 5x character level in rounds of fast healing 5, ability to make a potion permanent (displacement is best option), double the duration of potions and make them work at character's alchemist level (mage armor and shield of faith is best option), make a single attack against all in a 10ft radius,and get additional fast healing from mutegen thanks to Bramble Brewer.
-Needs-
The character will need the blade of his Scimitar perma enchanted with the daylight spell to take full advantage of mutagen at any time in the day / night and a Dex stat item when possible.
This is a little rough around the edges but may suit your needs
Str 10 0 points
Dex 20 7 points +2 race +1 level 4 +2 magic
Con 14 5 points
Int 13 3 points
Wis 07 -4 points
Cha 14 5 points
Hp 48 (8 + 4.5 (x4) +5.5 +12 con +5 favored class)
Ac 25 to 17 ff 19 (fight defensively to add either +4 dodge to ac or 4/- Dr
Feats
1 Dervish Dance (Class) Dodge Improved Unarmed Strike
3 Crane Style
5 Fighter (Unbreakable) Endurance, Die Hard, Stalwart
Skills 43
Traits
Maestro of the Society (Total performance = 17 rounds)
(an other)
5300 + 1 Mithril Breast Plate = 7 +5 dex +1 dodge +1 nat +1 def = ac25 (29 when fighting defensive or 25 and dr 4/-)
4000 +2 dex belt
2320 +1 Scimitar (+4 bab +5 dex +1 magic -2 fighting defensive = +8 1d6+6 (+12 1d6+10 while performing)
2000 +1 Ring of Protection
2000 +1 amulet of natural armor
15,620 gp
I'd suggest defenisve and utility spells
Just realized he was probably out of class. Will text him.