Goblin Squad Member
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I guess I am having a hard time getting my head around skill training in PFO. CEO said yesterday that they don't want skill training to make you intrinsically better?
What is skill training for?
Is it just prerequisites to use equipment and abilities and prerequisites for merit badges?
Wouldn't being able to use those items or earn those merit badges make you better?
I think he means skill training doesn't make you better at using an ability it just allows you to use it period.
I have read the dev blog on this and I am asking for more help understanding how this is going to work.
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Goblin Squad Member
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skill training doesn't give intrinsic benefits but unlocks merit badges etc. The merit badges are what makes you better.
Earning (note the word) those merit badges may be very simple in some cases, but still has to be done.
the beauty of the system is that 1) you have to choose, you can't do everything, and 2) earning the merit badges requires some (meaningful) effort instead of senseless grinding to get to the next level.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Basically, the Skill Training unlocks an opportunity to earn a Merit Badge, which in turn unlocks an Ability.
So, you can't just do all your Skill Training offline and then log in and be uber. You have to actually accomplish certain things in-game in order to get your new Abilities, or to be able to wear better armor, etc. Effectively, it's a hybrid system that uses both real-time training, which can even be done offline, and in-game accomplishments.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It will be an imaginary example, since we don't have any clear examples from the devs yet.
You start a brand new character and choose to train Short Sword Strike 1. This will take 15 minutes of real time, whether you're logged in or not.
Once that skill finishes training, you will need to log into the game and get the Short Sword Strike 1 Merit Badge, which requires you to hit enemies with a Short Sword basic auto-attack 15 times. At that point, you'll earn the Merit Badge and then be able to use the Short Sword Strike 1 Ability, which is a little better than the Short Sword basic auto-attack.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Nihimon, I know you just made up examples, but did you hear a similar example from Ryan (or a blog post) earlier on that merit badges could be attained similar to that way?
I've been kind of wondering how you attain a merit badge, and what will be involved. Will it be something simple, like in your example, or maybe a quest of some sort.
An example from Eve. Lets say your current ship is a frigate, but you want to upgrade to a destroyer. In order to be able to fly a destroyer you need the following skills.. Frigate 5 (skill level 5) and destroyer 2. The skill destroyer requires you have frigate 5 before you begin training destroyer. So you train frigate up to 5, then begin training destroyer 1 and 2.
Now your able to pilot the destroyer you wanted. The skills themselves don't provide much in the way of abilities or feats, but by training them you can use this better ship that's more powerful, faster etc..
Hope this helps.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Hobbun, the only examples I've seen from Ryan are examples like "kill orcs" or something else similarly vague.
Skill names, the tasks necessary to earn a Merit Badge, and the Abilities themselves have really not been discussed at all. My example was really just trying to explain the process.
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Goblin Squad Member
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An example from Eve. Lets say your current ship is a frigate, but you want to upgrade to a destroyer. In order to be able to fly a destroyer you need the following skills.. Frigate 5 (skill level 5) and destroyer 2. The skill destroyer requires you have frigate 5 before you begin training destroyer. So you train frigate up to 5, then begin training destroyer 1 and 2.
Now your able to pilot the destroyer you wanted. The skills themselves don't provide much in the way of abilities or feats, but by training them you can use this better ship that's more powerful, faster etc..
Hope this helps.
In Eve though training skills are prerequiste like you describe and they also give you stat bonuses.
So using the earlier guy's example, if I want to equip a shortsword, do I have to level a skill to use it for basic attacks? Then if I level my shortsword skill do I get new kinds of attacks with it? because the CEO said I wont get better with my skill "intrinsically" by leveling it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If the Devs are saying that skills will not be giving a bonus to some stat, then it is possible that the item (shortsword, bow, armor, etc..) will have a bonus attached to it and would scale based on the trained level of a specific skill. (I'll be leaving out merit badges as they seem to be their own modifier in a sense, in an attempt to keep this wall of text as simple and short as possible)
For example: If we wanted to use (like mentioned above) a shortsword, we would have to at least train the *shortsword skill* to lvl 1 to equip the base tier of such an item.
Now, depending on the tier or quality of the shortsword you've bought or crafted, it may give 1 or more bonuses based on your skill level of that particular weapon (or other skills as it may be). So you might have a tier 2 shortsword with a 4% bonus to slashing damage per level of your shortsword skill. But then you acquire a tier 3 shortsword that has a 2% slashing damage modifier per level of the shortsword skill and a 2% piercing bonus modifier for every level trained in the players *agility skill*.
You may want to keep your initial sword because it's bonus to slashing damage is higher than the second and deals more damage vs the second sword that only has 2% to slashing. On the other hand you may want to use the tier 3 sword if your *agility skill* is at level 4 because of the piercing damage bonus based off of that skill in addition to the slashing bonus.
So, in conclusion, the skill may not give a direct benefit to the player but determines how the item your using reacts to you. I hope that makes sense to some of you.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Instead of 'short sword' for a skill, I'm thinking 'slashing attacks' as a skill.
As you gained levels in 'slashing attacks' and earn the merit badges, you gain abilities which require a slashing weapon, starting with 'slash' and perhaps ending with 'dervish'.
On a different track would be 'heavy attacks' and 'light attacks' skills, which would open merit badges that unlocked abilities (e.g. power attack, hit and run) usable with the appropriate weapons (e.g. greatsword, shortsword).
One level of depth comes from the intersection of various keywords; some abilities might require not just lots of training but several specific weapon keywords to use, making the [one-handed, light, piercing, martial, fragile {enchanted: fast, brittle}] rapier capable of doing a lot of damage to armored targets but vulnerable to specific counters, like someone using a [one-handed, blunt, short, disarming, exotic {enchanted: sundering, gentle}] shieldbreaker.
An example from Eve. Lets say your current ship is a frigate, but you want to upgrade to a destroyer. In order to be able to fly a destroyer you need the following skills.. Frigate 5 (skill level 5) and destroyer 2. The skill destroyer requires you have frigate 5 before you begin training destroyer. So you train frigate up to 5, then begin training destroyer 1 and 2.
Now your able to pilot the destroyer you wanted. The skills themselves don't provide much in the way of abilities or feats, but by training them you can use this better ship that's more powerful, faster etc..
Hope this helps.
In Eve though training skills are prerequiste like you describe and they also give you stat bonuses.
So using the earlier guy's example, if I want to equip a shortsword, do I have to level a skill to use it for basic attacks? Then if I level my shortsword skill do I get new kinds of attacks with it? because the CEO said I wont get better with my skill "intrinsically" by leveling it.
I haven't seen this answered directly. I feel that the new attacks would come with the merit badge.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've seen Ryan comment on that. In EVE he said skills can sometimes be pre-reqs and sometimes not, along with other things.
To simplify it, I recall him saying, skills just let you get merit badges, and those badges are always the pre-req.
My take away from this thread is that the skill system hasnt been clearly explaind yet and it may be because its a work in process.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If there is going to be training in multiple weapon types at once, I think those types would be tired to the weapon groups and not damage type. The training time should be longer for groups, but shorter than it would be for learning each weapon separately.
For example, the fastest weapon training should be an individual simple weapon. Slightly slower would be all simple weapons. After that would be specialized class/race weapon groups (Rogue, Elf, Monk, Druid) and individual martial weapons. Then all martial weapons. Exotic weapons can only be learned individually or as part of a class group, and train at the same time as an individual Martial weapon, but there would need to be additional perquisites before you can start training.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The more I learn of it the more impressive it is in depth and scope. Not to mention the confidence I hear in the developers when discussing all that they mention... and large systems are so far missing from what I have found in old posts.
That the different systems they do talk about seem to map through the unknowns wihtout contradicting anything and making sense in context is both impressive and reassuring.
Otherwise I would be very worried that it could be done.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The whole system seems completely counter-intuitive as I see it described around the forums. I choose a skill I want to train, fine... but it is completely independent from what I am currently doing? So, I want to train crafting and select that, but I can still go out and whack Orcs? Then after 15 minutes of training in crafting while I'm killing stuff I have to go back and spend 15 minutes crafting 20 items of a certain sort to earn a merit badge? What do I do with the merit badge? Do I get to proudly display it on a sash? Do I have to turn it in to some Boy Scout Troop Leader to receive a skill?
Personally, I would like to be able to look at the feats I want, and see what merit badge(s) I need in order to obtain that. Say I want simple weapon proficiency and that requires the Orc Slayer merit badge which requires I kill 50 Orcs with a simple weapon.
I would rather spend 15-30 minutes doing that. Doing something meaningful, isn't that what they keep saying? If I'm not proficient with the weapon I have equipped, I am taking a penalty and I will probably need another player or two to help me kill those Orcs. Isn't that more meaningful than encouraging a FarmVille mentality: "oh, I gotta login and harvest/plant quick and then wait another 3 hours..."
If they are completely invested in the independent training/advancing while AFK, fine... but let players who are actively engaged in their training take a fast track. Sure, the young punks on their summer break or the disabled/bedridden may be advancing their skills faster; but that doesn't make them "intrinsically better", right?
The whole system seems completely counter-intuitive as I see it described around the forums. I choose a skill I want to train, fine... but it is completely independent from what I am currently doing? So, I want to train crafting and select that, but I can still go out and whack Orcs? Then after 15 minutes of training in crafting while I'm killing stuff I have to go back and spend 15 minutes crafting 20 items of a certain sort to earn a merit badge? What do I do with the merit badge? Do I get to proudly display it on a sash? Do I have to turn it in to some Boy Scout Troop Leader to receive a skill?
When you receive a merit badge is when you get new abilities or feats. I'm unsure, but I doubt, that you need to do anything after attaining the merit badge. i 'think' that you just receive whatever new abilities that co,e with the badge.
Personally, I would like to be able to look at the feats I want, and see what merit badge(s) I need in order to obtain that. Say I want simple weapon proficiency and that requires the Orc Slayer merit badge which requires I kill 50 Orcs with a simple weapon.
If you've ever played Eve, what they plan is similar to Eve's certification system. Their system will have a template that you can look at and plot your skill training. This screen also shows what, if any, benefits a skill gives.
Those are the only answers I know and to be fair any of those may change between now and open enrollment.
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Goblin Squad Member
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When you receive a merit badge is when you get new abilities or feats. I'm unsure, but I doubt, that you need to do anything after attaining the merit badge. i 'think' that you just receive whatever new abilities that co,e with the badge.
Yeah, I would guess that's the intent as well. I was just trying to indicate how ridiculous I believe the terminology is ;)
If you've ever played Eve, what they plan is similar to Eve's certification system. Their system will have a template that you can look at and plot your skill training. This screen also shows what, if any, benefits a skill gives.
Those are the only answers I know and to be fair any of those may change between now and open enrollment.
I would totally expect that kind of planning template, regardless. I guess my main thought is that someone who is actively engaged in the skill they wish to train should be able to fast track that skill - perhaps complete the merit assignment while training - rather than have to train, then complete a merit assignment; or, perhaps, if the player's actions during training are part of a related merit assignment, allow them to apply them to it. Maybe it satisfies the requirement, maybe it doesn't. In the case of advanced skills, I would expect that it wouldn't.
I just don't understand why a company running an MMO would want to encourage AFK activity. If they feel it is value-added, allow it; but allow active players to have an edge.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I just don't understand why a company running an MMO would want to encourage AFK activity. If they feel it is value-added, allow it; but allow active players to have an edge.
I don't see how it encourages AFK activity when you can not select a skill until you've accumulated the appropriate badges which requires active participation.
I can log on, select a skill, then log off while I wait for it to complete the training, but then I can't log back on and select a different skill. I still won't have met the minimum requirements for the next skill.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The time based training helps developers keep ahead of the players when it comes to content. They know exactly how lonig it will take people to reach any certain level.
So many games fail as devs can't make content fast enough for the 10% of players
that reach end game the first week.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The time based training helps developers keep ahead of the players when it comes to content. They know exactly how lonig it will take people to reach any certain level.
So many games fail as devs can't make content fast enough for the 10% of players
that reach end game the first week.
I think in this case it is about letting the player base build enough content before reaching the max level for a skill tree. Since it will be the players that provide the end game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't see how it encourages AFK activity when you can not select a skill until you've accumulated the appropriate badges which requires active participation.
I can log on, select a skill, then log off while I wait for it to complete the training, but then I can't log back on and select a different skill. I still won't have met the minimum requirements for the next skill.
I may not be able to select the next skill above the one I just trained in a single tree. But I could surely log on every x minutes and select an unrelated skill that doesn't have prerequisites or one that I have fulfilled the requirements for.
Then I would just need to login later when I have more time to complete the merit assignments all at once while training further skills. Perhaps, there will be enough players who aren't going to multi-class so that won't be a huge deal. The active player has some advantage, but whether it is significant remains to be seen.
So many games fail as devs can't make content fast enough for the 10% of players
that reach end game the first week.
I thought PfO wasn't intended to have an endgame, but player-created content... ;)
EDIT:
I think in this case it is about letting the player base build enough content before reaching the max level for a skill tree. Since it will be the players that provide the end game.
I guess that makes sense at the beginning, but after the game becomes more established - it loses something.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I may not be able to select the next skill above the one I just trained in a single tree. But I could surely log on every x minutes and select an unrelated skill that doesn't have prerequisites or one that I have fulfilled the requirements for.
Then I would just need to login later when I have more time to complete the merit assignments all at once while training further skills. Perhaps, there will be enough players who aren't going to multi-class so that won't be a huge deal. The active player has some advantage, but whether it is significant remains to be seen.
Not sure, but in that case you would eventually run out of skills without prerequisites that you would have go spend a lot of time working for the badges for a multitude of skills. This would make you kind of a jack-of-all-trades but master of none.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There will be PvE, yes; but the developers have repeatedly stated that there isn't an endgame, per se. We aren't seeking level 20 or to complete some over-all storyline. There won't come a point where we can't train new skills (until we learn them all). Player-driven content appears to be what they intend to be the meat of the game. Players need resources, players create bounties, players are at war, players are bandits attacking players that are trying to complete the above, etc...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Player driven as in "Please adventures, I need some dragon scales to complete this amazing plate armor I'm creating, could you go fetch me some. I pay 100 gold per scale!"Exactly. And the devs know that nobody will be powerful enough to slay said dragon for 8 months
Guess I'm not sure what you're getting at? That the game will be player driven, or that time will scale up the difficulty?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Guess I'm not sure what you're getting at? That the game will be player driven, or that time will scale up the difficulty?Player driven as in "Please adventures, I need some dragon scales to complete this amazing plate armor I'm creating, could you go fetch me some. I pay 100 gold per scale!"Exactly. And the devs know that nobody will be powerful enough to slay said dragon for 8 months
I was pointing out the main advantage of time based training.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I wonder:
Do you need to complete the tasks for your badge after training or can you work on them while training?
If you've trained to the point of needing to complete a badge, does your skill training turn off or do you continue accruing training points?
Say I'm training in short sword use. While my timer is counting, I'm fighting a few goblins. Then when training completes, I find out the badge task is to fight some goblins. Would my previous play count, or would I have been better off to just sit at home and not bother with the goblins until I could get credit for them? The first few people to train the skill may not know what the requirements for the badge are going to be, but it'll eventually be posted on guides all over the place.
Say you're done with the skill training portion, but the badge-earning task requires something not available at the moment. You have to log off for a number of days before you can get to the task. Have you now permanently lost all those days worth of training time because you were done training one thing but hadn't unlocked the next?
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CEO, Goblinworks
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You train a skill by telling your PC to do so. Skill trains in realtime independent of your on-line presence.
You earn "Merit Badges" (hate the name, it will change) for doing in-game activities. The perquisites for many Merit Badges include but are not limited to having trained a Skill to a certain level. Those perquisites usually involve doing something materially related to the Merit Badge successfully, repetitively in-game. Once you meet the perquisites, you get the Merit Badge. Many Merit Badges include a mechanical bonus or character-ability unlock.
Some skills (most skills? don't know) will have perquisites that include having trained other skills and earned certain Merit Badges. It would be very easy to put your PC into a situation where they have no skills available to train because they lack perquisites - you'll have to log in and do something useful to continue to gain character power.
The skills are not yet defined. The training time algorithm is not defined. The perquisites for skills are not defined. The perquisites for Merit Badges are not defined. These are all things Lee and Stephen are spending lots of time working on.
Differences with EVE
EVE is 100% dependent on Skill training. Nothing else matters in determining what you can fly, who you can fly with, what you can fit to your ships, what you can craft, refine, or harvest, or what you can build. You could train up every skill in the game and have the ability to do everything in the game without ever leaving a station as long as someone kept bringing you the required Skill Books (the in-game object that represents the course of study for a Skill). You don't have to do anything but train skills to get better in EVE.
In EVE, Skills have mechanical effects as well as being perquisites. Training many Skills actually makes your character better. (This is one of the biggest points of confusion in the game as without computer assistance it is almost impossible to figure out the effects various skills will have on your combat or crafting effectiveness, the whole system has become over-developed and inter-dependent). We have some ideas for a few things that may work this way, but most Skills in Pathfinder Online will not have a mechanical effect.
RyanD
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Goblin Squad Member
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Sounds great to me. I hope there is a way to queue up skill training for a few days in case folks go outa town, or a way to manage it from a mobile device so you don't loose training time due to RL. I think this is justified by the requirement to "actually do something" to earn the merit badge.