Here is a portion of a blog post on crafting, I got it from Dak's Wiki whIch can be found Here
The crafter needs to purchase a wide variety of intermediate components produced by processors. Each type of good you wish to make will require a variety of components. The more complex the final product, the more complex the ingredients of the job. Substituting lower-quality components may work, but the result will be less valuable than the average example of that type of good. Likewise, finding ways to use higher-quality components may lead a crafter to producing exceptional work that will carry a price premium.
Once the necessary materials are assembled, you'll engage the services of a workshop to complete the job. These workshops are buildings found in settlements, and they are staffed by common folk. Unlike processors, who may be able to operate many jobs in many locations, crafters will need to be present and engaged with the task of production to ensure that it is successful. From time to time during the crafting job, you'll be informed that your assistance is needed, usually in the form of acquiring and supplying unanticipated components—which may be available only in distant locations or may be derived from the bodies of various esoteric beasts or rarely visited locales! There may be more active engagement with the crafting job as well; we envision many sorts of "mini-games" that crafters will participate in to ensure their jobs are completed.
If you're not available when a crafting job requires your attention, work will be halted until you're able to unblock the logjam. Operating several crafting jobs simultaneously will require crafters who are able to juggle many overlapping demands on their time effectively!
Also, like the work of processors, things that affect the settlement and the common folk will impact the pace of crafting jobs.
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On the other hand, does a smith need to know a lot about swordfighting to craft a good sword? Certainly not, although theoretical knowledge of combat would definitely be useful in coming up with improvements as opposed to simply copying an existing design to perfection. Hmmmm....
'Need' probably not if he or she had a good master and stays within the parameters of his recipe. To truly excel at swordcraft I would think a masterful swordsman would have a significant advantage if trying to improve upon existing formulae.
If you don't know how it is to use a sword in all circumstances you will not really appreciate the importance of balance, taper, the resilience in the foil or the spring in the blade, its weight, resistance to damage when parrying, the firmness of the spring in the steel, or why the brittle sharpens best and holds an edge but the pliant steel with less carbon is better for endurance. Why the pommel should be of a given weight and shape, or what cross guard is best for disarming the opponent may not be apparent to the master smith who has never had to really depend on using a sword to stay alive.
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I think there are a number of misapprehensions here...
1) There is no such thing as "useless newbie gear". An adventurer picking up a standard, plain-jane sword from a low level merchant is still reasonably effective due to thier skills. Remember, PFO wants a reasonable shallow power curve between starting characters and top level characters, that also means that there is NECCESSARLY a reasonably shallow power curve between low level and top level gear...much shallower then you see in most MMO's and probably shallower then in many Pathfinder table-top campaigns. The reason why people want higher level gear is that in a competitive environment any extra edge that you can get helps...as long as you can afford it.
2) We have no idea how the gear in PFO matches up with the gear in Pathfinder TableTop....just because something is in the tabletop ruleset does NOT mean it's going to be in PFO....there may be no such thing as a "vorpal" sword or "rings of invisabilty" etc. The settings are the same, but the rulesets are different.
3) Gear is much more disposable in PFO then it is in the tabletop....remember that weapons, armor and spells are all likely to involve the use of some sort of consumable components to power them at full efficiency. So get used to the idea of dependancy on crafters products as a regular part of your everyday adventuring expenses.
4) The tabletop treated crafting/enchanting as a side-hobby for caster classes because the game was all about adventuring. PFO is a very different game that includes many other types of activities that are focused on just as much as adventuring. That's going to change the structure of how character development takes place.
5) It's NOT 20 badges to top level...it's 20 class badges....which probably means hundreds if not thousands of seperate badges. Remember it's a SKILL based game where having a certain number of badge achievments acts as a PREREQUISITE to taking a level in a class, which earns you a small bonus. Hence in order to take the Fighter 2 badge you might have had to learn Sword Skill 2 and Shield 2 and Armor 2 and Dodge 2, etc.
Now personaly, I don't see the mechanical/gameplay efficacy of having a seperate "Enchant" process as it's redundant with "assemble" in terms of producing an object. Now it may or may not be that in order to create magical objects crafters will have to earn merit badges in an "enchant" skill tree...or maybe even different types of "enchant" trees... it wouldn't be out of line to require multiple skills to create certain types of items (e.g. blacksmithing & leatherworking to create studded leather armor) if they wanted to make crafting complex but I highly doubt that those "enchant" skill tree(s) would be dependant upon knowing any other type of magic or having any levels in any of the caster classes.
I also think it's probably NOT going to end up requiring a caster to actualy CAST A SPELL INTO an item...as that's a bad game design choice given the volume of items that are likely going to be produced and consumed on a regular basis in PFO. That would require the caster to be PHYSICALY PRESENT each time an item is creating....something that they are trying to get away with even for crafters with the Supervising your work crew of NPC's concept. The reason why is obvious...it's boring play for a Player to spend all day repetitively clicking a button...no one wants that. What they are likely to do is go with some sort of "sympathetic magic" style system for item creation that involves specific ingrediants with inherent magical properties.
Want to create a "cure poison" potion...great you need some Wyvern blood to make it.... the crafter is dependant upon some adventurer going out and killing the Wyvern to harves it (either directly or indirectly there may be merchants that act as middlemen running commodities markets) and the adventurers are dependant upon crafters supplying them with gear that makes them effective in adventuring. It's a closed loop system...but an asynchonus one. In fact, I could almost swear the Dev's pointed to just this sort of thing in one of thier blogs/posts.
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Here is a quote about NPC's selling/buying entry level gear, while it doesn't specify only entry level gear, that is what I assume is going to be the case.
We'll have a lot to say about markets in future blog posts. One thing I'll say now in advance is that we need to make it possible for new characters to buy the stuff they need to get started in a life in the River Kingdoms. What may not be as obvious is that there also needs to be a market for new crafters to sell the stuff they make so they can earn an income and progress towards making more and more valuable stuff.
The solution I think (and don't hold me to this) that we'll use is that there will be NPC buyers and sellers for the entry-level stuff in the markets in the 3 NPC settlements. They will likely buy at a price that is fixed, setting a floor on entry level sales to ensure some moderate profit on those items. And they'll likely sell at a price that is low enough to be reasonable for new characters, but not lower than the buy price (so you can't just resell the items to the NPCs at a profit).
I still think some aspect of crafting magical items needs to be in the hands of those who can use magic. Not necessarily that only magic users can craft magical items, but at the least magic users would have to provide some component ie a scroll or something that a crafter could then use to craft their magic items.
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* Something about the chosen crafting process itself imbues the enchantment (e.g. the mage-smith, dwarven rune-mason, etc). In other words, the crafter is the caster. Somewhat like the artificer mentioned above, but really this is simply a crafter who doesn't need a caster involved at all in the process to make magic items (but that doesn't mean they can cast spells like a caster). To me, personally, this is the most compelling form of crafting from the perspective of a player (because I find those archetypes fascinating). It also decouples the crafting of magic items from the spells that casters use, so that there doesn't need to be any kind of relation between what spells exist and what enchantments are possible.
This is the version I am hoping for and think should be in place. Not that I don’t think character interaction is important, but I do feel that the help the crafter is already going to need on gathering resources to be enough than to also rely on magic from a caster archetype.
Ultimately though, regardless of the specific details, my main desire for crafting is to avoid a system where top-level crafters are fungible. I want player skill to matter in the crafting of an item (not the gathering, not the marketing, not the selling - though those are all areas where player skill should matter as well), so that when you're choosing who to hit up for crafting - just like you were choosing a tank or a healer for your party - you can look at some crafters and think, sure they can both make me a +3 sword, but I know that guy is good at it (and not just because he's left his '+3-sword-making skill' training for longer than everyone else). I want to play an artisan, not a factory worker (or even a factory manager), regardless of how complex the assembly line is.
That is an interesting take. With myself, I am ok with the player having some actual skill in making the item, because I think I am able to do the ‘twitch’ well enough to create the item. But what about those who can’t? Should they be penalized because their reflexes are not as good? What about those who are handicapped? GW has to look at all of those aspects.
@Avari: I agree with you, if the scribing of scrolls falls under the caster archetypes, I would have no issues with that.
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@Dakcenturi,
I'm not sure what would be gained by that mechanicaly, since scrolls are "crafted items". That would require magic users to be crafters themselves. Therefore crafters would be dependant upon magic users who are crafters...and why would magic users who are crafters wish to sell scrolls to other crafters who would be thier competition in crafting.
Now if you made the components/ingrediants things that were gained from adventuring. Adventurers (including wizards, etc) could spend thier time doing the main thing that they enjoyed....adventuring...and gain something valuable that they gained through it to sell to crafters.
Both sides are dependant upon one another but within thier own areas of expertiese. Both sides are also playing thier own economic games. Adventurers are trying to earn more in valuable rewards (ingrediants/components) that they can sell then they expended in resources to gain those rewards. Crafters are hoping to sell thier finnished goods for more then it cost them to purchase the resources to make them.
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Remember, PFO wants a reasonable shallow power curve between starting characters and top level characters, that also means that there is NECCESSARLY a reasonably shallow power curve between low level and top level gear...much shallower then you see in most MMO's and probably shallower then in many Pathfinder table-top campaigns...
I'm unsure of that "NECESSARILY", Mel. The reason I am given pause is that adventurers will want reasons to adventure, to seek things in remote and dangerous places.
Because of that, and because of the meaningful player interaction that would be iinvolved in organizing an expedition with a party and travelling dangerous country to procure it is bound to be a major preoccupation, part of the core of the game.
And if a wizard is going to have a high bar to clear to gain access to the most powerful spells' components I expect a Knight will also have a high bar to clear for the rarest components for the most powerful crafted weapons and armor, and that like the power of magic there will also be great power in weapons and armor.
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Ultimately though, regardless of the specific details, my main desire for crafting is to avoid a system where top-level crafters are fungible. I want player skill to matter in the crafting of an item (not the gathering, not the marketing, not the selling - though those are all areas where player skill should matter as well), so that when you're choosing who to hit up for crafting - just like you were choosing a tank or a healer for your party - you can look at some crafters and think, sure they can both make me a +3 sword, but I know that guy is good at it (and not just because he's left his '+3-sword-making skill' training for longer than everyone else). I want to play an artisan, not a factory worker (or even a factory manager), regardless of how complex the assembly line is.That is an interesting take. With myself, I am ok with the player having some actual skill in making the item, because I think I am able to do the ‘twitch’ well enough to create the item....
Twitch doesn't necessarily come into it, it depends on what the actual mechanic for crafting is in the end, and there's always the possibility of more than one single mechanic. There are many possible mechanics which require player skill that don't rely on twitch: It could be solving puzzles, it could be playing chess, it could be threading mazes, it could be discerning patterns, it could be singing into your microphone a la Rock Star (imagine that mechanic for Bards!). Ideally (and I know that we probably won't reach ideal :)) the mechanic is deep and engaging enough to be a full-time activity in an MMO alongside adventuring, and not something that will become repetitive after a short time.
You might also ask, does a player need to have good twitch skills to play a Fighter really well? Or a Wizard? It will depend on the mechanics. It will probably help to some degree, but in the MMO's I've played, at least, timing and situation awareness have been more important to combat than twitch.
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@Tuoweit: That’s a good point, it doesn’t have to be twitch. I actually like and agree with what you are saying, and hope that GW institutes something like this with the crafting. I welcome the challenge in being put to the test (as a player) to make the best items I can, and not just go by my skill level. Sounds like a lot of fun!
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Remember, PFO wants a reasonable shallow power curve between starting characters and top level characters, that also means that there is NECCESSARLY a reasonably shallow power curve between low level and top level gear...much shallower then you see in most MMO's and probably shallower then in many Pathfinder table-top campaigns...I'm unsure of that "NECESSARILY", Mel. The reason I am given pause is that adventurers will want reasons to adventure, to seek things in remote and dangerous places.
Because of that, and because of the meaningful player interaction that would be iinvolved in organizing an expedition with a party and travelling dangerous country to procure it is bound to be a major preoccupation, part of the core of the game.
And if a wizard is going to have a high bar to clear to gain access to the most powerful spells' components I expect a Knight will also have a high bar to clear for the rarest components for the most powerful crafted weapons and armor, and that like the power of magic there will also be great power in weapons and armor.
No I think your wrong there. The paradigm they want is that in a contest between a starting character and a top level character - The starting character should NEVER have a 0 percent chance of defeating the top level character and the top level character should NEVER have a 100 percent chance of defeating the starting character. That is absolutely ESSENTIAL to the type of game they are making and they've come out and said as much.
That means that neither MAGIC nor character skill nor gear nor any combination of the above can make such a huge difference that it renders the combat between the low level and the high level character a forgone conclusion irregardless of player skill. Which means that ALL those things will need to be on a shallow enough power curve to allow a low level player to overcome the mechanical differences they create through a combination of player skill, luck and circumstances. That doesn't mean no disparity in power of gear...but the disparity won't be as much as many folks are used to seeing.
For example (in tabletop terms): If a starting character with a plain jane store bought sword has a +1 to hit and a 1d6 damage. You won't see a top level character walking around with AC 22 and DR 6....because that renders the fight mechanicaly impossible for the starting character. As a result, rather then seeing improvements in gear or skill do things like +1 to hit or +1 DR you'll probably see them do things like + .2 or even +.05.
They ARE improvements but they are much more granualar in nature and computer games can easly handle very granular improvements....and when you are fighting on a regular basis, those little advantages DO start to make a difference...even though they might not seem like that much of a deal in any given fight.
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... The paradigm they want is that in a contest between a starting character and a top level character - The starting character should NEVER have a 0 percent chance of defeating the top level character and the top level character should NEVER have a 100 percent chance of defeating the starting character. That is absolutely ESSENTIAL to the type of game they are making and they've come out and said as much.
That means that neither MAGIC nor character skill nor gear nor any combination of the above can make such a huge difference that it renders the combat between the low level and the high level character a forgone conclusion irregardless of player skill. Which means that ALL those things will need to be on a shallow enough power curve to allow a low level player to overcome the mechanical differences they create through a combination of player skill, luck and...
I see what you are saying. Please see what I am saying: The difficulty of the adventure required to gain an item must be commensurate with the perceived benefit of that item, within the context of the environment.
If you are going to send a team of veteren players through hell to retrieve a fabled source of power, that fabled source of power should be a reward and not an insult.
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Remember that gear in PFO will be better because it has more keywords, not because it has bigger mechanical bonuses.
Also, this post from Ryan might shed some light on the topic.
From Kickstarter Community Thread: Player vs. Player Conflict:
@All - power curves
I've always thought that the way the power curve will likely work is this:
Newbies
When you are a "new" character, you'll be fragile and weak. That does two things:
1: It encourages you to stay in reasonably safe areas and focus on learning how the game works, rather than trying to be Conan on day one.
2: It makes "disposable alts" a less viable option. Making a new character is not an "I win" button for PvP if you do it with a herd of your friends.
Average
At some point, you move into the "normal" power curve of the game; what we've talked about being equivalent to the kind of power you typically see from about 6th level to about 10th level (what I call the "heroic adventuring" part of a Pathfinder tabletop RPG character's career).
This is where you find that the development of your character becomes a process of being very good at a wide range of activities. You'll be able to "catch up" to a character that's older than you in a given activity given a few months of dedicated play and training, but that older character will have the advantage of being very good at a variety of things, not just one thing.
This is essentially what happens in EVE Online.
A small group of reasonably experienced "heroic adventurers" should be able to fight off a horde of new characters, A heroic adventurer should be able to beat a small number of new characters fairly easily.
Balance comes when you have conflict between groups of heroic adventurers. In such encounters, the absolute age of the characters should be less important than their tactics, gear, coordination, and player skill.
Old Vets
There will likely be a small number of old, experienced, wealthy, well equipped PCs who will be really dangerous. You won't want to cross them.
If they show up in a fight, they can tip the balance quickly. If they act in concert as a group, it will take a lot of Heroic Adventurers to keep them in check.
Moderating the power of these Old Vets is an obvious long-term challenge for the game designers and I'm sure we'll have lots of ideas on how to keep them from getting out of hand. But I'm also sure that it will be pretty fun to play one too. :)
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So basically, useless newbie gear is definitely a thing, and awesome powerful gear is also a thing.
Personally, I hope that crafters will be able to make gear better than unless newbie gear day one. The first goal of a new character should be to buy a set of basic player made gear.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So basically, useless newbie gear is definitely a thing, and awesome powerful gear is also a thing.
Personally, I hope that crafters will be able to make gear better than unless newbie gear day one. The first goal of a new character should be to buy a set of basic player made gear.
I like the idea of having those of us in Early Access having to struggle a bit. Crafters should have to level like everyone else, not simply start off able to make better gear then people can get. Just as Settlements will have to be built over time, so should player's skills. By release, there will be plenty of crafters making good things. For the early access folks, though, I'm all about earning that standing instead of having a 'comfortable' starting place.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So basically, useless newbie gear is definitely a thing, and awesome powerful gear is also a thing.
Personally, I hope that crafters will be able to make gear better than unless newbie gear day one. The first goal of a new character should be to buy a set of basic player made gear.
No...at least not in the context that I think you are thinking about...
Elsewhere Ryan likened it to this...and I'm paraphrasing because I don't really feel like searching to find the quote, but maybe Nihimon remembers it.
A new player knows how to play 1 basic chord on a guitar, he knows how to play that chord reasonably well but that's the only chord he knows.
A vet player knows how to play scores of different chords and all sorts of riffs and other fancy tricks.
It's entirely possible that under the right circumstances the new player can beat the vet using his 1 chord...especialy if the vet is being sloppy... because the vet doesn't play that 1 chord THAT much better then the new player...but he can pull such a greater variety of chords and tricks out of his hat that he does have a real advantage.
In terms of gear that means that you are never going to get the +57 sword of uberness where you are walking around 1 shotting folks.
What it does mean is that you might get a +2 sword that does +2 extra cold damage, and +1 extra damage to orcs, and +1 extra damage to elementals and adds +1 to your CMD against Disarm checks and is half the weight of a regular sword.
It's awesomeness lies in the fact that has alot of small/medium bonuses in alot of areas...... which doesn't make the plain jane stuff "useless". That stuff is still reasonably effective for it's basic purpose..... but it's not something that is very attractive when you can afford something that can help you in a wide variety of different ways and situations.
That's really the core concept of the overal power curve in PFO....SHALLOW but WIDE.
If they do it any other way...with real time skill training and no skill cap....then anyone that joins, say, 1 year after the game opens is eternaly hosed and might as well not even play....and that won't make for a working business model for PFO.
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I just think there should be an immediate and obvious demand for player made goods. It sets the economy rolling strong right from the start. New crafters being able to immediatly and obviously better ensure that crafters will have that demand and reliance on npc merchants will be minimized.
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To make sure there is a demand for goods it would be reasonable to have all equipment fail or break at some point and will need to be replaced. This way I save my best gear for the really important battles but keep a moderately affordable set for normal everyday activities.
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It almost wouldn't make sense if a Caster was not involved with the creation of spell completion items or items that mirror specific spells such as scrolls, potions, wands and staves.
While I am currently of two minds on the mater of crafting enchanted items, I have to admit I am leaning heavily toward this same conclusion. In terms of the dice and paper game, a Masterwork item is very close to an enchanted +1 item, as it also gives a +1. Beyond that, a very well crafted item (a Masterwork one) can't produce a flaming sword unless the appropriate spells are used to produce that effect.
I don't see why a synergy or symbiotic relationship can't be established between a dedicated crafter and a dedicated caster, as this will aid the economy. I understand that Hubban and others will want to be able to work on their own, but since a dedicated crafter will be less likely to run off to some unexplored area or to kill that dragon for a special component, likewise he/she wouldn't enchant without the aid of a caster. All of this brings more player interaction as adventurers head out for the hard to find materials or spell components, miners/wood cutters/leather workers/etc.. operate camps to produce the material components and casters cast the spells the crafter needs to make a +3 Longsword of Frost. Now when the crafter finishes it, it should be possible for the end result to actually be better made (critical success) as noted in an above post, so instead of a +3 Longsword of Frost, the Crafter ends up with Whitefang, a unique magical longsword that does especially well against certain creatures (the opportunity to name such a well made item would be a big perk, as a crafter who has a high skill could crit more often, thus his/her fame builds and more money is generated because the sword or other item sells for more than he/she would have been able to get for the +3 Longsword of Frost).
Remember, GW plans to make the economy self-sufficient, and lacking a mail system and players having to carry their items (and wealth) you'll see fewer gold farmers (not saying it can't happen, just that GW seems to be taking a good approach to keep it to a minimum), the economy works best if as many players as possible share in the wealth allowing coins to trade hands. If a Crafter can do everything, that keeps a lot of coins in his/her hands, and is a sure way to inflation that has ruined so many other MMO's.
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While I am currently of two minds on the mater of crafting enchanted items, I have to admit I am leaning heavily toward this same conclusion. In terms of the dice and paper game, a Masterwork item is very close to an enchanted +1 item, as it also gives a +1. Beyond that, a very well crafted item (a Masterwork one) can't produce a flaming sword unless the appropriate spells are used to produce that effect.
I don't see why a synergy or symbiotic relationship can't be established between a dedicated crafter and a dedicated caster, as this will aid the economy. I understand that Hubban and others will want to be able to work on their own, but since a dedicated crafter will be less likely to run off to some unexplored area or to kill that dragon for a special component, likewise he/she wouldn't enchant without the aid of a caster. All of this brings more player interaction as adventurers head out for the hard to find materials or spell components, miners/wood cutters/leather workers/etc.. operate camps to produce the material components and casters cast the spells the crafter needs to make a +3 Longsword of Frost. Now when the crafter finishes it, it should be possible for the end result to actually be better made (critical success) as noted in an above post, so instead of a +3 Longsword of Frost, the Crafter ends up with Whitefang, a unique magical longsword that does especially well against certain creatures (the opportunity to name such a well made item would be a big perk, as a crafter who has a high skill could crit more often, thus his/her fame builds and more money is generated because the sword or other item sells for more than he/she would have been able to get for the +3 Longsword of Frost).
There are other ways to pull money from crafters than to make them subservient to the whim of casters for enchanting items - and while mundane stuff may be useful for the poor, the money will be in the top-end stuff. Crafters would become an archetype (or archetypes) devoted solely to providing base materials for the good stuff, made by casters. It would make more sense for the casters to provide materials (like scrolls or whatever) to the crafter, and the crafter make the finished product (since that is their focus after all).
Random critting is a terrible way to make masterwork items, because it leads to a surplus of non-crit items that are considered junk and will flood the market (killing the possibility of non-master craftsmen of being able to turn a profit from anything they can make). It would make more sense to be able to purposely craft such a powerful item, but have a chance of failure (at least for the first few times - presumably one would get the hang of it after enough practice, though that practice can be very expensive).
If you're worried about an accumulation of money in the hands of crafters, there's plenty of expenses they could have - costly materials, obviously, but also facility and tool upkeep (like adventurers will use up equipment, crafters could use up crafting tools), salaries, guards, etc.
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There are other ways to pull money from crafters than to make them subservient to the whim of casters for enchanting items - and while mundane stuff may be useful for the poor, the money will be in the top-end stuff. Crafters would become an archetype (or archetypes) devoted...While I am currently of two minds on the mater of crafting enchanted items, I have to admit I am leaning heavily toward this same conclusion. In terms of the dice and paper game, a Masterwork item is very close to an enchanted +1 item, as it also gives a +1. Beyond that, a very well crafted item (a Masterwork one) can't produce a flaming sword unless the appropriate spells are used to produce that effect.
I don't see why a synergy or symbiotic relationship can't be established between a dedicated crafter and a dedicated caster, as this will aid the economy. I understand that Hubban and others will want to be able to work on their own, but since a dedicated crafter will be less likely to run off to some unexplored area or to kill that dragon for a special component, likewise he/she wouldn't enchant without the aid of a caster. All of this brings more player interaction as adventurers head out for the hard to find materials or spell components, miners/wood cutters/leather workers/etc.. operate camps to produce the material components and casters cast the spells the crafter needs to make a +3 Longsword of Frost. Now when the crafter finishes it, it should be possible for the end result to actually be better made (critical success) as noted in an above post, so instead of a +3 Longsword of Frost, the Crafter ends up with Whitefang, a unique magical longsword that does especially well against certain creatures (the opportunity to name such a well made item would be a big perk, as a crafter who has a high skill could crit more often, thus his/her fame builds and more money is generated because the sword or other item sells for more than he/she would have been able to get for the +3 Longsword of Frost).
I merely used the term crit as it applies to the table top game. At this early point, we really have no true measure of how the crafting and/or enchanting system(s) may work. I imagine they could change several times before the game is ready as code is tried and reworked. I also think any item the crafter isn't happy with could be broken down in at least some cases, preventing a glut on the market. I see no reason why metal items made of only one metal couldn't be re-smelted as one example.
As for being worried about crafters having a great deal of wealth, I am not really worried about that aspect. If a crafter (which will be an archetype) is really good, he/she should reap the rewards. My suggestion was simply one possible way to ensure as many people as possible get a share, keeping the economy balanced. I have seen too many MMO's fail as a result of an economy being poorly managed and a handful of wealthy characters (or players who buy gold) end up with the best equipment while every crafter seeks to sell at the highest possible prices, discouraging new players. I am sure wiser and more intelligent people will have other ideas on how to keep this from happening than my meager ideas. I want to see this succeed as both a backer and a player as this is shaping up to be the MMO I have been looking for for years.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You realize that the game could be balanced such that the stats for the base equipment are far more valuable than the enchantments placed on them. If it is also quite expensive to enchant equipment, enchantments instead become the domain for the incredibly wealthy trying to squeeze a small little edge on to their equipment to stay ahead of the competition.
In this manner most finished goods would not be enchanted as enchantments wouldn't be viable for mass production or a financially viable choice for most players.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Then why not make that ‘enchanting tree’ part of the crafter tree, at least in regards to enchanting items. Obviously a Wizard will have his enchantment spells, which would not be part of a crafter tree.Not missing the point. The idea that we're talking about is that learning to enchant an item doesn't require you to be a full-fledged wizard, cleric, bard, etc..Correct but it should require you invest some time learning some of the skills in order to be able to "unlock" the enchanting skill tree.Because enchanting an item is NOT crafting. It is taking a finished product and then adding magic too it.
And I disagree. The enchantment process is part of the process of making a completed magic item, which I feel a crafter should be able to do.
Please, let’s get away from the traditional “if it’s enchanting, it HAS to be a mage.” I am more looking along the lines of gameplay than what has been done before.
If a wizard wants to make a +1 dagger he doesn't make the dagger. He buys a masterwork dagger and enchants it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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They have stated that "enchantments" will be cheap and they expect you to be replacing them often. So I don't think they will be overly difficult to make. You might get rich selling 1000 Flame Burst enchantments but you're not going to get rich selling a bunch of Flaming Longswords.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If a wizard wants to make a +1 dagger he doesn't make the dagger. He buys a masterwork dagger and enchants it.
Yes, you are correct, that is how it works...in PnP. But this is PFO, it may not work the same way, in fact, I am guessing it won't.
I really don't think there will be crafting a masterwork item and having a separate step of enchanting it. I believe the crafter will just create the whole thing. Masterwork, magical abilities and all.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If a wizard wants to make a +1 dagger he doesn't make the dagger. He buys a masterwork dagger and enchants it.Yes, you are correct, that is how it works...in PnP. But this is PFO, it may not work the same way, in fact, I am guessing it won't.
I really don't think there will be crafting a masterwork item and having a separate step of enchanting it. I believe the crafter will just create the whole thing. Masterwork, magical abilities and all.
The blogs on this subject have indicated there won't be permanent magic items. You have your basic weapon and you use consumables to enchant it. At least that's the idea I got.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The blogs on this subject have indicated there won't be permanent magic items. You have your basic weapon and you use consumables to enchant it. At least that's the idea I got.
Can you provide a link to the specific blogs? I haven't seen anything like this mentioned in the blogs - although it sounds like a decent idea.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I also have not seen anything like that in the blog. The closest thing I could find is this:
To master these lands, players will need to harvest and make use of a wide variety of resources: cutting timber, mining ore, skinning hides, and gathering crops. These resources will need to be processed into materials that in turn can be crafted to create the weapons, vehicles, structures, and consumables that form the heart of the economic system. Combined with rare and exotic materials recovered by explorers who dare to confront the monsters and opposing players in the wilderness, all manner of gear both magical and mundane will circulate within the economy.
And really, that's just saying that you can buy and sell magic items, in my book.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The blogs on this subject have indicated there won't be permanent magic items. You have your basic weapon and you use consumables to enchant it. At least that's the idea I got.Can you provide a link to the specific blogs? I haven't seen anything like this mentioned in the blogs - although it sounds like a decent idea.
Ok, it wasn't a blog but a post from Ryan.
Here is the important part I think:
Instead what I anticipate we will create is a system where you need to combine a consumable resource with your weapons and armor to get maximum effect from them, and those resources won't survive the trip to the grave. So crafters will make lots of those resources instead of making lots of swords and armor sets. It's unlikely that someone will be just a guy who makes swords. It's much more likely that guy will make sword consumables, and the occasional sword on commission.
The entire post is here :
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2oz1z&page=2?Looting-and-Salvaging-Intellig ent-and-Yes#53
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Goblin Squad Member
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In my mind the way to best handle this is to need a spell or scroll to enchant an item along with a class ability/feat such as create magic arms and armor and if it is a scroll then you would also need a skill such as use magic device all being in the PnP game and translates well enough to an MMO. It will make it so that a crafter could do the entire thing without having a dedicated caster archetype stepping on their toes. Not many would want to waste time training something specifically to create stuff if that wasn't their idea behind their character concept. Also, create scrolls is something that is iconic for a wizard to do so it doesn't seem odd if someone was able to train that and have it slotted without it disrupting their focus bonus.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Reading that post, I am not seeing what you see.
He does say that he expects the market to revolve around 'consumables' rather than simply getting a new sword every time you die - but that's it.
So while that will probably include some enchantments with limited time/charges, it seems to me that it will be something leaning more towards poisons, sharpening stones, straps to reinforce your armor, etc.
There would still be a place for permanent enchantment with all of that - and it would even be worth the high costs (very like to be) associated with it, assuming you're smart enough to thread the item.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Instead what I anticipate we will create is a system where you need to combine a consumable resource with your weapons and armor to get maximum effect from them, and those resources won't survive the trip to the grave. So crafters will make lots of those resources instead of making lots of swords and armor sets. It's unlikely that someone will be just a guy who makes swords. It's much more likely that guy will make sword consumables, and the occasional sword on commission.The entire post is here :
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2oz1z&page=2?Looting-and-Salvaging-Intellig ent-and-Yes#53
Thanks, some good info in there.
I agree with Keign, though, my interpretation of what he said doesn't match with yours, and I don't think it rules out permanent enchantments. If anything, losing the enchantments on stuff would kind of defeat the stated purpose of being able to keep certain items through threading in order to not be totally gimped on respawn, unless the enchantments were really cheap and easy to get and the quality of the underlying item determined how much you could put onto it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Mechanicaly,
I'm assuming what you would want to do is have something like...
Craft Skill I: Make Low Quality Item
Craft Skill II: Make Medium Quality Item
Craft Skill III: Make High Quality Item
Craft Skill IV: Make Higher Quality Item (probably low level magic)
ETC...
For a 20 level game in which crafters are SUPPOSED to be a fully viable dedicated proffesion, it really doesn't make sense to cut thier relevant skills off half-way through the item tier ladder.
Now maybe THEMATICALY you might want to call Craft Skill IV, "Enchanting"
You could even require a 2nd skill tree called "Echanting I" that they would need to pick up in addition to Craft Skill IV to make a Tier IV items...a bit redundant but not horrible.
However, I'd severely doubt you'd make them pickup something like Wizard Level 3 as a pre-requirement for Enchanting I....that would be forcing players to do something they aren't interested in (adventuring) in order to do something they are (crafting). That's just bad game design.
I also doubt you'd force adventuring Wizards to produce scrolls or cast spells in order to produce an item. That would force Wizards (adventurers) to do something they aren't interested in (participate in crafting) in order for Crafters to be able to craft. That again is bad game design.
What I expect is that you allow Adventurers to do something that they do like (Adventuring) in order to get valuable materials that they can trade to Crafters in exchange for something that makes thier adventuring more effective (gear). You also therefore allow Crafters to do something they like (Crafting) in order to produce something of value (gear) that they can trade to adventuers in order to get what they need (raw materials) to Craft. Everyone is doing what they like in order to get things they can trade to others in exchange for what they need to continue what they like. A closed loop of dependancies, but one that doesn't depend on anyone engaging in an activity that they don't enjoy.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't want to think that any skill will take such a clear linear path. Such as Crafting I to get Crafting II. I see it more as the Leather Armor skill requires Leatherworking Basic. Improved Leather Armor (masterwork) requires Leather Armor. Studded Leather Armor requires Leather Armor but not Improved Leather Armor. However, it does require the buckles and studs created by an iron smelter which is created by someone trained in Blacksmithing Basic.
Enchanted Leather Armor would require Improved Leather Armor but not Studded Leather Armor. Enchanted Leather Armor would also require Enchanting Armor Basic.
Enchanting Armor Basic also has it's own requirement of Enchanting. Enchanting Weapon Basic would be a separate path.
Create Scroll would also require Enchanting but also would require a level in Divine Casting, Arcane Casting, Nature Casting, or Musical Lore. Any scroll can then be created provided you know the spell and whatever other prerequisites and materials the spell requires.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I see a lot of people on the side of Magic users and others trying to fly on the side of just pure crafter for enchanting. Pathfinder is still a d&d based universe, and I think they should try to stay as close to the setting as they can.
One should be required to have magical aptitude to enchant an item. But as the books say, you can only enchant masterwork items, you can't just got make some awesome magical item out of a piece of crap. So this means that it still will require someone to be a crafter too. Since the system will allow people to get skills in any class and not just be restricted to 1 class I can't see why someone who is a crafter would have an issue with having to have magical abilities to make a magic item.
Sure if you were in an mmo and you could only be 1 class, so you're a warrior or a thief and you like crafting, then I can see how you might complain. Even in d&d you had the option to multi or dual class if you wanted magical abilities.
I think there should be things that mirror enchanting feats, whether it's a tree. And the level of enchantment you can put on it will be based on the level of your magical ability. Sure bonuses will be different in the online game than it was in tabletop , but the ratio's would be similar. **IF** you had a magical item crafting feat, and were a caster, and had the correct spell needed for an enchantment and had a masterwork appropriate item you could put an enchantment with a power based on your level as a caster. For example every 3 levels of a magical class you could put a +1 bonus on a magic item.
I could see research being done for magical items, and some might require many different casting classes and spells. Sure you know the formula needed to make the awesome staff of earthly smiting, and you can carve a mean branch into a staff and put some nice designs on it. Because all you do is craft... well you still need the special ingredients that some adventure had to beat out of the wilderness, you need raw magical aptitude at X level, and you need whomever has this magical aptitude to also posses not only the ability to enchant stuff but the correct spells, which they didn't just when they leveled up, but had to find, and some may be rare spells, some may just be lower level spells that require a higher level caster to get a bigger bang out of it.
If you're so dead set about not getting up off your ass and killing monsters, or climbing through dungeons and only want to craft and nothing else then you can still put masterwork bonuses on an item, you just can make it magical or put other magical effects on it. People will still require crafters to make the things they will enchant. You'll have to work with someone who has magical ability. I can't see how you can complain about being denied access to part of the game when you'll be going out of your way to not play a significant portion of the gameplay.
Your complaint: I can't make magic items because I refuse to fight a single monster and raise a combat or magical classes skills.
The game has multiple facets, You'll need to utilize many of them to get something awesome, not just 1.
It won't just be wizards or sorcerers that can enchant, other classes have magical aptitude. In d&d the only way to get an AC deflection bonus is from the 'Armor of Faith' spell, which is a Cleric spell. There are many other examples.
Sure you can make money from crafting, and use that to buy better components to make better things, to sell for more to buy better to make better and raise your skills etc... but someone needs to gather these components, not all of which will be lying on the ground, some may be big bad monster parts, etc... And even the ones that are lying around to be picked up will be surrounded by horrible monsters, and since you can't fight because you just wanted to be a crafter they will be able to kill you by just sneezing.
If you have to rely on others to gather your components for you, or protect you while you try to gather them, I can't see what your complaint on collaborating with a magic user to put an enchantment on some masterwork item that you just made would be.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I dunno maybe, I am reading between the lines too much, but I've felt that the system is going to be something where a greatsword +3 of Giant slaying has a +3 from the skill of the crafter and the giant slaying from the skill of the enchanter.
That's how you empower the crafters and still need the enchanters.
I like this idea.
"Mundane" Crafters provide the 'grunt' of the weapon, but "Artificer" Crafters can fine-tune the weapon to a specific power or ability/abilities.
This makes it possible for any class to provide good crafting services, without needing every Smith, Bowyer, Jeweller and the like needing to be Archwizards on weekends.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In the actual Pathfinder game the +3 would mean the caster had to be atleast 9th level to put that enchantment on, have a make magical weapons feat, know the appropriate spell for giant slaying, and have a masterwork greatsword at their disposal to enchant.
Every crafter doesn't have to be an wizard, or any other type of magic user that could have made the enchantment, they just need access to someone who is one to put an enchantment on an item.
If you don't have magic, you can't enchant. Don't complain, just get some magic, you're not prevented from learning. Or find someone else with magic.
As I said to get the components to make anything, even non magical items will require people with combat abilities. Someone will need to go out in the wilderness full of hostiles to find resources. The rarer the resource the more dangerous the hostiles involved.
If you think you can craft without ever using combat abilities you're mistaken.
example: new character, I want to craft... need to purchase skill at crafting, crafting tools, components... wait I don't have any money. I beg in the streets and hope someone gives me something ... might actually work. But you're probably going to have to go kill some monsters and sell your loot to get the absolute minimum start up coin. Then you hope that someone will buy the low level trash that you've created that you can make some money to build more low level garbage, and eventually move up to low level nick nacks that someone might want.
In the end, someone has to go kill something so you can even craft the lowest level thing, or purchase the tools to craft the lowest level thing, or purchase the skill to know how to craft the lowest level thing.
If that's required just to do something so mundane and basic, then it most certainly should be required above and beyond to craft a magical item.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you think you can craft without ever using combat abilities you're mistaken.
example: new character, I want to craft... need to purchase skill at crafting, crafting tools, components... wait I don't have any money. I beg in the streets and hope someone gives me something ... might actually work. But you're probably going to have to go kill some monsters and sell your loot to get the absolute minimum start up coin. Then you hope that someone will buy the low level trash that you've created that you can make some money to build more low level garbage, and eventually move up to low level nick nacks that someone might want.
In the end, someone has to go kill something so you can even craft the lowest level thing, or purchase the tools to craft the lowest level thing, or purchase the skill to know how to craft the lowest level thing.
If that's required just to do something so mundane and basic, then it most certainly should be required above and beyond to craft a magical item.
I'm going to have to disagree with you there. First off let me qualify and agree with you on the very significant difference between have, and need to rely on someone with. IMO crafters should absolutely be dependent on combat oriented characters to obtain several of their components, and fighting characters should absolutely be dependent on crafters to get weapons good enough to go out and do their fighting.
I greatly dislike the thought of the most efficiant crafter is one who mixes with combat, or vice versa. IMO one who specializes, should be ahead in his or her specialization.
1 trade that you completely left out for crafters, is harvesting, which relays a completely different set of skills than combat, and is more likely to be popular among crafters. Yes they will need to hire protection for their endevors, but in theory with superior harvesting skills, it should be worth it for combatants to want to escort them out, and split the profits of the harvest.
Secondly crafting itself, should be profitable very early on, PFO intends to have a large market on consumables for weapons, armors etc... and the thing with consumables, is well they are temporary. Even vets aren't always going to want to blow 1/10th of their money on consumables, on a day in which they don't know of any major lifechanging event, rather I think more likely they will use low/mid level consumables for the day to day, high end expensive consumables for the rarer high risk high reward events. This isn't WoW's style where everything is permanant and thus the only reason to get an item less than the best you can afford, is if you are about to level into a better tier, and you would never use an item below your current tier.
The basic summery of my view is, maximizing characters dependancy on eachother creates a much more dynamic game vs encouraging everyone to become a jack of all trades self sufficient character.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I did not read many of the posts in this thread, so if it has been said already, I agree with that person.
Contrary to popular belief, learning how to enchant items does not make you a wizard, it makes you a crafter that can enchant items that he or she makes.
Many or perhaps most crafters will be dedicated crafters. They will not train very many skills outside of crafting. Their activity in game will mostly be crafting, and they will be much sought after by settlements to do just that.
Would it be to their advantage to learn how to enchant items, absolutely. Does this mean they will also learn the Fireball spell, not likely.
I think it would be best if GW and those of us on these forums stopped using the class based terminology of classes, in this supposed classless MMO.
Wizard becomes Magic skill tree
Fighter becomes Combat skill tree
Rogue becomes Stealth skill tree
Cleric becomes Divine skill tree
Aristocrats are Settlement Managers
Artisans are Crafters and Refiners
Commoners are Gatherers
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Goblin Squad Member
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I guess I'm falling between two stools here.
I don't believe that every crafter should be able to create enchanted items. Apart from anything else, think of what having such easy access to magic would do to the 'feel' of the world. That magical sword is no longer special, you can get them in any 'Magik'R'Us' dealership.
I prefer a world where magic and enchanted items are special. Common enough that most PCs will have access to enchanted items, but rare enough that such access is not easy or mundane.
On the other hand, I am in favour of crafting enchanted items to be separate from spell-casting. Perhaps we should be looking at a branch of combined spellcasting and crafting that is primarily concerned with enchantment? The Enchanter would have access to the spells required to meet pre-requisites (if that is still a function of the magic creation system), but the effects can only be only be 'cast' through those items he creates.
A sort of specialised magical crafter role. Something that is not a wizard in the 'throw fireballs and fly about' sense, yet far more than a simple caster. You would have a smaller market but make more valuable items.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Sadurian
That is pretty much what I've been saying. People are fixating too much on the Wizard class. There are many magic using classes, Wizards, Sorcerers, Druids, Clerics, Paladins, Rangers, Bards. There are less classes that can't use magic than can use magic.
And not all magic users may be able to enchant items. In the tabletop game if you didn't use one of your very few and fleeting feat slots on one of the magical item creation feats then you couldn't enchant. And besides having to find all the very expensive components as well as a masterwork item to enchant, and requiring knowledge of the spells needed for the specific enchantment it also took a large toll in the shape of experience. You had to spend your experience points. So it likely wasn't common for there to be magic users making loads of enchantments.
Perhaps something similar could be put in. Once all the components are together, and the crafting and spell levels and spell types are met, it takes X amount of time to make the item based on the power of the item. This amount of time stops all skill training. This is a way of investing personal experience in the magical item.
I completely agree that it should not be simple to pump out magical items and over saturate the market. A good crafter should be required, AND someone with the appropriate magical talent who possesses the required spell to do the enchantment too.
Making magical items shouldn't be restricted to just one niche. And that's what all the guys saying 'only crafters' are trying to say.
I'm trying to say it should require a crafter, and a caster. It should require the right spells, which the casters don't just manifest, they devs have already said that spells will be found as loot. And besides the normal resources required to make the item, the enchantment components might be hard to find either, they might require someone to slay some specific type of monster for spell components. And it should require an experience investiture as I detailed earlier.
In this way magical items can be made in concert with a significant amount of areas of game play needed to make the whole.
Yes one person probably could do all of this if they put their points in all the reqired areas, but it would be quite a while before that one person could make anything mind blowing by themselves, but it could be done.
Some people here are just arguing one side, and they think that the people saying it should require magic users for enchantments are just arguing the opposite side. That is not so, it's arguing the middle, for both to be required to cooperate.
Stop being unrealistic and selfish.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the DnD-style XP cost was dropped in Pathfinder, to be replaced by the gp and time. Certainly, I've never been called on to spend XP on making magic.
In any case, I think I sort of agree, except my suggestion is the single creator that you say will be possible if they put all their points into it. That would be why those magic items are so rare, because the Enchanters able to create them are rare. Not Wizards or Clerics or whatever teaming up with a crafter, but a separate role which combines magical ability with crafting.
Having an open skill tree and no classes means that building such a character is quite possible. It will be rare, as it should be to keep the world being flooded with cheap magical items, but enough people will fill that niche to provide magic to the 'front-line' adventurers. You may have to wait a few months before you get the +1 Flaming Sword you have ordered, but that's because the Enchanter has more orders than he can fill.
That, to me, seems somehow more 'realistic' than the PnP system. It may not be Pathfinder canon, but it would work for me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A change to match upcoming characters I wager? At least I doubt anyone will be playing a maniacal chef/rabbit. Or The Atomic Skull for that matter. Waiting until next year will make you even more cranky and upset about change. Best to get it done while there is some youth left. ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I understand what you're saying, and with the open system I agree that such a thing is possible that you could have an enchanting tree that could stand alone, since you're not being restricted to class.
However if an enchanting class is completely it's own tree and doesn't require any other sort of magical ability or aptitude that makes it a much easier singular pursuit.
The reason I've advocated needing a caster present is because it adds another level to the difficulty, just because you have knowledge of how to make a certain type of magic item with your character researched perhaps in an enchanting tree, I don't think that should mean that you can just make it. Requirements of knowing and being able to cast specific spells for the enchantments should be a big part of it to.
Though in the tabletop game a lot of the base spells required to add enchantment bonuses are low level spells. Like Bull's strength for a strength bonus, or Cat's grace for a Dexterity bonus, Mage Armor for an AC bonus, etc... After that the level of the bonus being dependant on a divisor of 3 on the caster level, having enough experience that was required available before you hopped over to the next level since you couldn't use enough to drop you a level, having the right components and tools, etc..
I think that there should be an enchanting tree, that would replace the feats like 'Craft Wondrous Item' and 'Craft Magical Weapon/Armor' etc... and it could be expanded on, and be required to have have higher levels in specific skills to do an enchantment, or research a type of enchantment.
But I also think that being able to cast the spells should be required. If you have the spells, you can do something similar to how they described researching a spell for crafting. Once you have researched it and can reproduce the spell, you can research using that specific spell in enchantments if you have the enchanting skills.
And the process of enchantment should put on hold all skill advancement for the length of the process, if it takes a few hours, or a few days or longer to make the magical item, the character enchanting it will have to wait until that time is over before they can resume skill training.