Goblin Squad Member
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If a game doesn't force first person perspective, most people will use 3rd person perspective because of its advantages.
Oculus or not, VR technology is only going to become more available and cheaper.
Immersion to me is the sweet idea of sneaking up on someone without an invis mechanic. Or not being able to look around corners by rotating the camera and keep my character safe and hidden. Or actually dealing with the height difference and visual perception differences of each race. Or even facing people when interacting with them. Which are all defeated by 3rd person perspective.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If it forces a first person viewpoint, I won't be playing. I can't play any FPS due to motion sickness. Even the unity environment demo made me nauseous after running around for five minutes. I'm all for you having an option to zoom to first person, but I need a character to focus on or I can't play.
Mortal online is first person only. Or it was during beta.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I can't play any FPS due to motion sickness.you are much less likely to get motion sick with full steroscopic vision
Uh, isn't the opposite true?
CES 2013: Oculus Rift Virtual Reality Headset Is Freaking Amazing
Then there's the issue of motion sickness, which is not a term Oculus uses--they prefer "disorientation"--but is real all the same. It's a little hard to tell if my nausea was caused by the Rift or by the fact that I was up until 3:30 AM playing poker, but the human body's interaction with such a complete perception replacement is not something to be taken lightly, I think. I suspect some people will react more poorly than others.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Mortal online is first person only. Or it was during beta.
That's actually a strong argument in favor of this. Not sure if you intended it that way or not. Mortal Online was a great game in a lot of ways. I still think it was the most immersive game I have ever played in my life.
It had it's problems. Mainly a choppy combat system, and ridiculous racial imbalances, oh and forcing REAL nudity after each death... but there is a lot that PFO can look to Mortal Online for that they really got right.
That being said this topic seems like a lost cause. I doubt they will force an FPS perspective.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Even if the game was first person this would not be possible since there will be tab-targeting and all abilities will auto-aim for you.
I'd be surprised if stealth in this game is not complete invisibility like in almost every single MMORPG out there (Darkfall being one of the few exceptions).
That is an assumption. This game won't be full aim like Darkfall or Mortal but they've never said it will be tab-targeting either and have in fact alluded that they would like to avoid that.
A smart-target system like RaiderZ, Terra, or Mass Effect is a strong possibility.
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Goblin Squad Member
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you are much less likely to get motion sick with full steroscopic visionUh, isn't the opposite true?the video I posted, the guy who tried oculus suffers from motion and car sickness. But reported no such feelings from the oculus. Using both eyes is more natural to humans.
See, I am fine with RL motion. I am fine on boats, I can read in cars, whatever. But I threw up when I watched Blair witch. I didn't bother with cloverfield, and felt a little nauseous in hunger games. Anything with shaky cam gets me... It's the virtual motion of the screen moving out of sync with reality that gets me. For whatever reason, if I have an avatar to focus on, I'm okay. I don't see using the goggles changing that. If I could demo it and I was ok, maybe. But I'm highly doubtful.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Haven't liked FPS melee combat since Hexxen. Hated it in EQ1. It sucks.
Care to expound on what sucked about it? Also Hexxen being the only true fps you listed was made nearly 20 years ago. I will happily research the improved FPS combat mechanics in other games that have evolved and iterated on ad nauseum since then.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm real iffy at the prospect of forcing 1st person view. I frankly don't think this is the game for it. Also, if we did would we have to get an Oculus? I'd rather not have to buy some fancy gadget to play the game (I'm assuming it costs a pretty penny, mind you).
Oculus would be a gaming accessory, but the ground work for locking the camera in your eyes, and only allowing it to pivot or rotate naturally on a neck-like structure would be laid down in the ground work. So you would still receive the benefit from playing on your computer monitor.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Anything with shaky cam gets me... It's the virtual motion of the screen moving out of sync with reality that gets me...If I could demo it and I was ok, maybe. But I'm highly doubtful.
I haven't had a chance to try it either, but they report extremely low latency to counter the out of sync effect. Even watching the video of the guy try it, it seems extremely responsive.
Mortal online is first person only. Or it was during beta.That's actually a strong argument in favor of this. Not sure if you intended it that way or not. Mortal Online was a great game in a lot of ways. I still think it was the most immersive game I have ever played in my life.
It had it's problems. Mainly a choppy combat system, and ridiculous racial imbalances, oh and forcing REAL nudity after each death... but there is a lot that PFO can look to Mortal Online for that they really got right.
That being said this topic seems like a lost cause. I doubt they will force an FPS perspective.
FPS wouldn't fly in PFO. I bet you would be lucky to get 2% of voters going for it if it came down to a vote, which I don't think it would even make it to a vote.
The nudity in MO was kinda funny to me. On the beta forums you had tons of people begging the Devs to put clothes on the models. It was funny reading all their reasons why nudity was bad.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Of course we will be able to scroll out. What is this? Daggerfall?
+1
So true no modern game is going to go to market without these basic features... Consumer mentality = If i want a new car let me decide if I want to use the optional cup holders don't remove them from the vehicle.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If it forces a first person viewpoint, I won't be playing. I can't play any FPS due to motion sickness. Even the unity environment demo made me nauseous after running around for five minutes. I'm all for you having an option to zoom to first person, but I need a character to focus on or I can't play.
I feel your pain Imbicatus. I'm the exact same way. I used to play every FPS game there was back in the day. Maybe it's just because I'm getting old, but I can't even watch my son play Minecraft for five minutes without getting motion sick.
A forced first person view in PFO would simply mean I wasted my money on the kickstarter. The game would be unplayable for me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My feelings on first-person perspective:
"i wonder where my legs are, would be nice to have a clue before trying this jump"
"did i remember to equip that armor, i need to check inventory. Ooh, is that how my character looks?"
"ooh, my health is falling. I wonder if i was shot in the back, or maybe the sides? or maybe I stepped in the bonfire?"
An over-the-shoulder view at least gives you some visual feedback to compensate for the loss of kinesthetic/touch/balance/temp. A standard 3rd person view gives more.
How stealth is implemented is a separate discussion. Forcing first-person perspective is not a good solution. (minimap+hacker addon would alert you anyway, or we would have people by default doing pirouettes instead of standing still).
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am personally against first person perspective because I find the better overview you get with 3rd person fundamental to coordinate a group without extensive training.
Also I think it will be needlessy hard to make formations work if everyone does not see (and have no feel for) the people around him.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... but I can't even watch my son play Minecraft for five minutes without getting motion sick.
Hey Toxycycline I read an article recently where a study was done on motion sickness tied to computer monitors and one solution was to change from 60refreshrate to 75refreshrate (obviously not all monitors allow you to do this and it could just be upper end ones) But thought it might help if u ever wanted to play something new/old ;)
@ Randomwalker - OMG too funny (and true)
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Goblin Squad Member
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My feelings on first-person perspective:
"i wonder where my legs are, would be nice to have a clue before trying this jump"
As with real life, you learn. It's easier in the game, because your character has a static footprint, it doesn't matter where their feet are, just that you jump before your footprint is off the cliff, you learn the timing as you play the game. And adding in a body to the first person camera is easy enough"did i remember to equip that armor, i need to check inventory. Ooh, is that how my character looks?"
As stated above, you could have a body in the FPS camera and look down, or you can just open your equipment window"ooh, my health is falling. I wonder if i was shot in the back, or maybe the sides? or maybe I stepped in the bonfire?"
Easily represented with screen effects. With the absence of physical stimuli, you get audible and visual warnings. As for stepping into a bonfire, as in the first statement, you learn to move around the world and avoid things, and if you step in fire, the edges of your screen start to burn, and move towards the center the larger the fire...
we would have people by default doing pirouettes instead of standing still).
As they should, if you are looking around, you should be looking around, not standing still as you move the camera around your character.
Does anyone walk/run/jump looking at their feet touch the ground? Or do you look ahead and plan out the necessary motions?
I find it funny that the importance of immersion, and distaste towards immersion-breaking things are talked about so much, but when something that increases immersion is brought up, like action combat controls or first person perspective, it is met with so much flack if it adds the smallest level of difficulty. I want to control my character, see what my character sees, get visual queues to what they feel. I find first person games like The Elder Scrolls(in first person) or Far Cry more immersive than anything 3rd person.
If there is a 3rd person view, I want a reason that I should be looking over my character like a watchful deity, passing commands based on what I see not what they see.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I find it funny that the importance of immersion, and distaste towards immersion-breaking things are talked about so much, but when something that increases immersion is brought up, like action combat controls or first person perspective, it is met with so much flack if it adds the smallest level of difficulty. I want to control my character, see what my character sees, get visual queues to what they feel. I find first person games like The Elder Scrolls(in first person) or Far Cry more immersive than...
First Person view does not increase immersion though. The more 'realistic' you try to make something, the more wrong it seems when it doesn't work quite right. And unless this is going to be some kind of fully-immersive virtual reality, a first person view isn't going to look remotely 'realistic'.
A third person view is much more immersive than first person. Blame your brain.
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Goblin Squad Member
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First Person view does not increase immersion though. The more 'realistic' you try to make something, the more wrong it seems when it doesn't work quite right. And unless this is going to be some kind of fully-immersive virtual reality, a first person view isn't going to look remotely 'realistic'.
A third person view is much more immersive than first person. Blame your brain.
This simply is not true, and I really don't care what cracked brained pencil pusher you can find who said it was.
I've played 1st person RPGs sych as Mortal Online and I've played 3rd person ones such as LotRO.
I know which one absolutely blew me away with how immersive it felt. (Hint: It wasn't LotRO)
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I played tabletop and there is not 1st or 3rd person view and I was more immersed into that than any online game. Now one time I ate a mushroom and that was more immersion than any tabletop so I guess it depends on the person right?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think it will happen.
I wouldn't necessarily mind having a first-person perspective, but I don't prefer it. I feel too disconnected from the game as it is using keyboard and mouse, the motion first person always feels too artificial. Plus, being a floating hand/weapon/tool just isn't as fun for me, typically.
I'm all for immersion, but I also don't think this is the right game for that style.
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Goblin Squad Member
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For myself I've loved first person perspective since the Westwood title 'Eye of the Beholder'.
First person has distinct disadvantages in a PvP environment or in a PvE environment where things can come around behind you.
Directional audio would go far to overcome the problems, but it would not address the problem identified by our friend Imbicitus.
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I agree with Slaunyeh, in that first person doesn't feel quite right, and that not-quite-right feeling actually detracts from my ability to lose myself in the world. I much prefer a close-in third person view, one in which my POV is slightly behind and above my character so my character is in view but I'm not seeing anything behind her. To me, that's the best balance between real-life field of view, and compensating for lack of non-visual sensory input. I then feel more immersed in the world.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I want to open up the conversation to what the most ideal perspective would be to play from the future players. Feel free to suggest new ideas or conventions other than these:
How about a forced top down perspective or bird-eye view to reduce game and server load? Analogous to the table top experience. Character tokens you could highly customize and even paint that would animate? Set movement to only 8 directions.
Parallel view
Top-down
Side scrolling
Isometric
First person
Third person
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Goblin Squad Member
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For me it doesn't really matter whether 1st or 3rd person pov is chosen, but then, I don't perceive any change to the immersion due to the pov setting. If the game plays smoothly and I don't have to swear to mechanics, awesome.
As what comes to top-down, I feel it is a setting that only places artificial restrictions on the game - graphics would be left to state that is good enough and the reduction on server load would be rather minimal.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Top-down
Side scrolling
Isometric
First person
Third person
Screenshots of each would be more useful than wiki articles.
Personally I love first person. I even flew 1st person in Freelancer when 3rd person was an option despite that being a slight disadvantage.
The reason I play 3rd person in most RPGs that allow it is:
A. It's a much bigger advantage.
B. Sticking a camera in your character's head is not immersive without making some subtle changes to give it the right "feel."
If they forced to close 3rd person or 1st person and have First Person the right "feel"... just like Oblivion and Skyrim... I would be nearly as happy as if they forced 1st person. I can take a LIGHT penalty for the sake of immersion.
Or they could allow people in 1st person with high look sensitivity to turn a bit faster than those in 3rd. Then they each have their own advantage.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Why not just do they same thing WOW did, where you could use your mouse to scroll from first person to third person ...
Because 1st person in WoW was a joke?
There are subtle thing like the camera bobbing a bit as you walk, seeing your weapon infront of you, having your view move properly as you climb on to your mount, or having your view go back and forth as you swing a lumber-axe/pick-axe that make the difference between an immersive first person experience like Mortal Online and a useless one like WoW.
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Goblin Squad Member
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For a FPS shooter type game like Planetside2 or Battlefield, forced 1st person is a key element because situational awareness, spotting an enemy in cover and twitch based aiming are the essential elements of the game.
Allowing 3rd person gives players in such games the ability to look around corners or terrain obsticals to spot ambushes and to be able to spot players from different angles, minimizing the effects of cover in close quarters....and is in turn absolutely useless in long range as it can't possibly cover the distances on the screen on which long range engagements occur. Allowing such a perspective would eleminate key game-play elements in such games.
However it does so because such games are very "twitch"/reaction based. The small fraction of a second gained by being able to look around a corner and obstacle and being prepared (reaction speed wise) for an ambush before actualy encountering it makes all the difference.
In most MMO's and from what we understand of PFO so far, which are far less "twitch" based, 3rd person doesn't eliminate key game-play elements because reaction speed, by design isn't a critical game-play element. As such I don't see any problems with allowing 3rd person perspective, which many players like to use.
However, I would be EXTREMELY disappointed if PFO didn't ALLOW use of the 1st person perspective for those of us who prefer it. I, myself, play all MMO's almost exclusively in 1st person because I find 3rd person extremely disorienting. I also know that many players like to use it at least PART of the time (usualy for immersion purposes).
In other words PFO should not force perspective but rather allow players to choose whatever persepective works best for them personaly in a given situation. YMMV.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Why not just do they same thing WOW did, where you could use your mouse to scroll from first person to third person ...Because 1st person in WoW was a joke?
There are subtle thing like the camera bobbing a bit as you walk, seeing your weapon infront of you, having your view move properly as you climb on to your mount, or having your view go back and forth as you swing a lumber-axe/pick-axe that make the difference between an immersive first person experience like Mortal Online and a useless one like WoW.
I never said is was particularly good, but I used it from time to time when I came into a new area or city.
I recently played dishonored, and found it to be quite enjoyable, but I was alone and had all the time in the world. With several players in a group, I really prefer not to be limited like that.(PS: I am really not a fan of the Elder Scrolls games, I could only take about an hour until the first person view - among other things - became to much for me).
Frankly immersion is really not that much of a factor for me, when it comes to online games, or games in general, but I am pretty desensitized.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As to what works best for people or feels most "natural", really it's going to be different for each person.
Though, I personaly, find "1st person" in games more natural....I completely understand those who feel otherwise. "1st person" in games doesn't remotely match real life....as in real life we have a much wider field of view with periphial vision, we have stereoscopic vision, we have the ability to shift focus quickly and easly and we have lots of other feedback mechanisms, not just directional hearing, but touch, sense of equaliberium, pressure feedback from our feet and legs, etc.....and then our brains, of course, put all this data together.
Since we all rely on things to different degrees, the view that feels most natural to any given individual is going to be different as well.