Ok...Paulcynic has a thread going over feats and abilities being exclusive or synergistic...and he makes some really good points on many things but on this I am disagreeing so I want some more input :)
(btw Paulcynic...nothing but respect for ya...do not take anything as an insult it is not meant that way)
OK SO anyways lol...lets say you cast Summon Monster VII and summon a Vrock (demon) with the fiendish template ok.
Superior Summoning says:
Benefit: Each time you cast a summoning spell that conjures more than one creature, add one to the total number of creatures summoned.
and Added Summoing says:
Added Summonings (Su): At 15th level, whenever you summon a creature with the demon subtype or the fiendish template using a summon monster spell, you summon one additional creature of the same kind.
As I see it...it would go like this since "Summon Monster" is a full round cast as per the rules
A spell that takes one round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed.
Your turn...you CAST summon monster...at this point "Superior Summoning" makes a check...are you CASTING a spell that summons more than one monster...if your casting summon monster III and summoning a monster from the lvl 3 list then the answer is NO YOU ARE NOT...so "Superior Summoning" does not come into play
Now its the beginning of your next turn...turn starts...your monster is summoned with the fiendish subtype...at THIS point "Added Summoning" makes a check...was a monster with the fiendish subtype summoned? YES IT WAS...POOF another one is summoned with it
please give us some more input on this particular issue with synergy or exclusivity of feats and abilities/class features
How are you adding the fiendish template to the Vrock?
You can't apply the fiendish template to vrocks. They don't have an asterisk next their name on the summoning table (as they are already outsiders).
You can't apply the fiendish template to vrocks.
Guess it's a good thing they're demons then, for this scenario :P
Edit: You are correct though, of course. No fiendish template on demons, though that's how it was worded in the OP. Probably just a mistake, I would guess.
You can't apply the fiendish template to vrocks.Guess it's a good thing they're demons then, for this scenario :P
Yup.
I just posted immediately after reading "lets say you cast Summon Monster VII and summon a Vrock (demon) with the fiendish template ok."
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Sounds logical. Added Summonings merely gives you a "bonus monster"; it doesn't turn the spell into a multiple-monster spell. For Superior Summoning, the spell needs to summon a base number greater than one.
I see no reason why the reverse couldn't be true... you're casting a spell that summons a demon. Added Summonings makes its check first:
Added Summonings says:
Added Summonings (Su): At 15th level, whenever you summon a creature with the demon subtype or the fiendish template using a summon monster spell, you summon one additional creature of the same kind.
You are currently summoning a creature with the demon subtype, so when you do so, there's another demon that pops up. It doesn't say "after you summon a creature", it says "whenever you summon a creature".
Then, Superior Summoning makes its check:
Superior Summoning says:
Benefit: Each time you cast a summoning spell that conjures more than one creature, add one to the total number of creatures summoned.
You are currently casting a summoning spell which conjures more than one creature, so you get a third demon. It doesn't say "each time you cast a spell that normally summons more than one creature", or "each time you cast a spell that will summon 1d4+1 creatures" or anything like that, so I see no reason why you couldn't get three Vrocks from this combination.
thats my point...if it were true one way then it should be true both ways...thats obvious even in math a*b*c=d so something like 5*10*100=5000, 10*5*100=5000, 100*5*10=5000...no matter what order the variable numbers are placed in the outcome is the same...for myself and all the people I play PF with this is how we agree it works
Yes I know this isn't math...but for me math is universal and I can use it to quantify alot of other problems like this one (thats just me though)
And for you nitpickers OMG yes i know i cant use the fiendish template...i just spat out a creature i remembered from the list not even thinking about the fact that it was of the demon subtype...I used to play an oracle of bones that specialized in necromancy and summoning so I used Vrock's at one point...IM SO SORRY PLEASE FORGIVE MY INSOLENCE lol (not to be read as insulting for those thinking "that guy's being a dick")
and thank you Paulcynic for seeing that it was a mistake in the first place...i value you as an opponent in this argument lol you are "gadara" to me for those that have read the "codex of alera" books by Jim Butcher