On The Concept
I think that mythic as an idea is incredibly ambitious. It's an enormous departure from epic in all the right ways, though I would not describe it as a replacement. That said, I think at present it's a little too ambitious. Trying to make up for 10 levels of static bonuses through ten tiers of mythic is over reaching in my opinion. For a full caster that's ten caster levels, 4-5 levels of spells, and dozens of spells per day. For a full martial character it's 12-13 points of attack bonus – before you talk about wealth (we'll get to that later). Hybrid characters suffer the worst of both worlds. I don't think 13/day mythic uses make up for that (for a number of reasons, but certainly including the fact that once you've run out of mythic power you are far less effective and likely to die outright in your next encounter).
I think design and implementation of mythic would be much easier and more rewarding if instead of 1 tier = 1 level design changed to 2 tiers = 1 level. Instead of trying to cram in ten levels of extra power in the system, fit in 5. You are closing a much smaller gap in terms of numbers, and it allows you to focus less on increasing raw power.
Mythic Power
Needs to either come in with many more uses per day or be based off of some kind of encounter/day mechanic. As it stands I can easily see high level characters blowing through all of their mythic uses within the first encounter or two of a day. I'm also of the opinion that having more limited uses makes combats less interesting, rather than more. A great deal could be done with mythic feats and abilities to increase a character's power and ability in an interesting and dynamic way using numerous abilities that are fueled by mythic points. Embrace that option. My preference would be for more uses per day (based on a level + tier + X formula), but an use per encounter option might be more sustainable in the long run, allowing characters to expend points in combat dynamically, without worrying about burning out later in the day (this does however present issues with out of combat uses).
The current pure tier formula doesn't work, because it does not acknowledge the assumed increased staying power of higher level characters (who gain mythic late in their career). A 14th level character who gains 3 mythic tiers needs to gain more than a 6th level character out of those same 3 mythic tiers. There is nothing a 14th level character with 6 mythic points is going to be able to do that will make it the equal of a 17th level character in terms of resources, raw power, and options. Whether or not the same can be said with 20 some uses of mythic power or not I can't be certain, but certainly the contest must be closer.
Surge
I'm torn because this ability should probably increase the number of dice instead of just the die size if it is going to become more useful across levels (e.g. 3d4 @ 10 instead of 1d12), but the current single die version is certainly easier to quickly calculate at most tables. Regardless, it should be a non-action to use it. As it stands it is virtually useless to many classes that rely on swift or immediate actions, which is flatly bad when you are introducing a new system that applies to all characters.
Ability Scores
This ability needs revision. Providing +10 to a given casters ability score does bad things to save Dcs vs. the saving throws of NPCs/PCs/Humanoid enemies in general. Problems exist for casters who are also supposed to be able to function as meleers (divine casters, magus, inquisitors, ect) that are expected to fill multiple roles but are forced to abandon one or the other in favor of specialization. Similar problems exist for anyone who relies upon two separate ability scores.
My suggestion would be to either axe ability score increases or to make them more universal (leaning on the later). Make it a +1 bonus to each ability score instead of +2 to one, or something similar.
Hard to Kill
I don't really have any problems with this ability. Seems straight forward, if perhaps a little strong at very low levels when combined with something like die hard (not a combo I'm concerned with).
Mythic Flaws
The Good: These are now optional.
The Bad: They are still boring.
Really, flaws present an interesting set of optional rules for a game, but they need a lot of work. They are not all balanced with each other – and I think that's something that can be used if they are an optional addition. Embrace that they aren't unbalanced, and use that to provide scaling benefits for those who choose them. My preference would be more mythic uses per day/encounter or being treated as a higher mythic tier. A larger pool that shows some more diversity would also be awesome. Include things that are not strictly combat based flaws.
Amazing Initiative
Count me among those who would prefer a larger initiative bonus (2 per tier). I'm on the fence about extra actions on your turn vs. extra turns per round.
Recuperation
This ability needs some clarification. How does renewed spells after the hour of rest option interact with prepared casters? Does it cause them to re-prep spells for the day? Only extended spells? Does it automatically refill their slots with expended spells? Ect.
Mythic Saves
This ability started out overpowered. Now it is broken in the sense of simply not functioning as intended. The intent seems to be to allow characters with mythic tiers to survive against higher CR enemies that have save DC's a character might not otherwise be able to succeed against. It doesn't do that. Instead it simply benefits a character that makes the save. That's a horrible dynamic to create. Let me offer an alternative: Mythic characters of tier 5 or higher roll twice on saving throws against non-mythic opponents, taking the better of the two results. This offers a benefit against non-mythic enemies without providing a flat mechanical bonus.
Force of Will
On the fence on this ability. I like that it lets a character negate a crit or some such. I dislike that it interrupts the narrative of play, and I'm always wary of immediate actions. Its extremely limited nature (only non-mythic foes) combined with my concerns leads me to feel it should probably just be axed. I'm simply not sure what it is adding to the game on the whole.
Unstoppable
This ability was probably too good originally, but I feel the list could use to be expanded a bit. Dominated / charmed jump out as major and frequent conditions that are excluded. While I understand removing them is potentially damaging to various plots and such, leaving them on the table in combat seems a little unfair to others who use the current list of conditions (e.g. spellcasters vs. meleers)
Immortal
I dislike this ability intensely. It feels like it should be an option, rather than a flat ability given out to everyone. I can see it being tremendously inappropriate for many mythic characters. Further, as noted above, tracking mythic vs. non-mythic damage is tedious and should probably be removed entirely.
Legendary Hero
Per the above, I dislike this ability. Tracking mythic vs. regular damage is tedious. The goal of this system should be simplicity and dynamic combat, not extra book keeping. Further, this sort of ability does not seem applicable to every character type. I'm firmly of the belief this ability should be axed in favor of something more flexible.
Next up, some mythic feat discussion.
If you can pull this off, you will win Pathfinder.
But seriously, I would love to see this work well. Thanks for tackling this problematic area of gaming.
If you can pull this off, you will win Pathfinder.
But seriously, I would love to see this work well. Thanks for tackling this problematic area of gaming.
o.O?
I'm simply commenting on the existing base system, with more to follow on specific paths, feats, spells, ect.
I'm simply commenting on the existing base system, with more to follow on specific paths, feats, spells, ect.
Sure, but I appreciate your critical approach.
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Mythic Feats
I'm not going to go over every single feat, but I will touch on things I see as problematic, or especially well done.
Acrobatic, Alertness, Animal Affinity, Athletic, Ect (The +2 skill feats)
These are boring. An extra +2 and the ability to expend a mythic point to treat your roll as a natural 20. If someone is really dedicated to a given skill they are better off 90% of the time taking the feat of [ability score] mythic ability for the +20 (using the feat for Dual Path if you must to make up for lost mythic path options). Certainly something better can be done.
Arcane Strike
This seems like a good example of a mythic feat done well that adds dynamic options to a combat. Really happy to how this works out.
Augment Summoning
Does not fix the problems summoners face while presenting an outright feat tax on summoning based characters. Along with seeing mythic damage dropped, I'd like to see this feat dropped.
Blind-Fight
This could probably also grant blindsight or blindsense in a small area, perhaps based on mythic tier.
Combat Reflexes
Perhaps this could allow you to make attacks of opportunity even for 5ft. steps when you use a mythic point? Seems like a very nitch investment otherwise.
Dodge
Should probably be a non-action. Otherwise I really like the idea behind it. It adds an interesting option in combat.
Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will
These should not specify only spells, SLAs, and SAs. I'd also like to see the option to use a mythic point to reroll against mythic opponents. They might also allow a larger bonus on saves against non-mythic foes if my suggestion on mythic saves is used.
Improved Channel
This ability feels weak. I have difficulty ever seeing it taken.
Mythic Spells
Why do you gain more mythic spells from a single feat than from any path? This seems wrong.
Power Attack
This ability seems very boring and like the opposite of what Mythic could be. Large flat bonuses to damage aren't fun in my experience. Beyond that, the language is very messy (crits and such) and its interaction with things like the two-hander archtype, off hand weapons, and so forth is unclear. If nothing else the language needs a lot of work.
Quick Draw
How often is this feat taken to begin with? Can we spice up the mythic version a bit? Perhaps it could let you pick up fallen/dropped items more quickly as well?
Rapid Shot
I don't like this. Archery is already an exceptional option in combat, and handing out an extra attack seems like a bad idea.
Spell Mastery
This requires 6 mythic tiers? Really? I'd like to see a mythic point option as well here. Perhaps you can spontaneously cast such a spell with a mythic point?
Vital Strike
Wow, this is really good. Probably too good compared to other options. Also, large flat numerical bonuses to damage? Seems out of type.
Weapon Finesse
I see no problems here other than the fact that it is essentially providing a patch over existing options. Not bad.
Next up... wait. That's it? Really? No mythic spell penetration? No mythic metamagic? Wow... Any chance we could get a slightly better selection of feats, particularly for casters and two-weapon fighters? This seems like a very thin selection.
Spell Penetration in particular seems like it's something needed in an initial release given the lack of any caster level increase and the fact that only a single mythic path ability increases caster level meaningfully against SR.
Overall I'd like to see more feats that are use activated in combat, along the lines of dodge.
I think you summed up my problems with it.
I want to repurpose the Mythic system to be a bloodlines system for a Birthright homebrew I'm working on, so I just wish it were a tad more modular and a little less powerful. Yeah, the initiative thing is BONKERS. I'd rather a system that ramped up at each tier rather than a bunch of frontloaded stuff. Wasn't that the problem with PrCs anyway?
On The Concept
Mythic Saves
This ability started out overpowered. Now it is broken in the sense of simply not functioning as intended. The intent seems to be to allow characters with mythic tiers to survive against higher CR enemies that have save DC's a character might not otherwise be able to succeed against. It doesn't do that. Instead it simply benefits a character that makes the save. That's a horrible dynamic to create. Let me offer an alternative: Mythic characters of tier 5 or higher roll twice on saving throws against non-mythic opponents, taking the better of the two results. This offers a benefit against non-mythic enemies without providing a flat mechanical bonus..
yet a better option here:
Mythic characters of tier 5 or higher add 1/2 tier (rounded down) bonus on saving throws against non-mythic opponents, taking the better of the two results.this will be a lesser bonus, but still a bonus by itself.
actually i prefeer the +1/2 tier bonus for all those feats instead the option they actualy offer!!
Mythic power attack
adds 1/2 tier bonus to your base attack (+4 [one handed]/+6 [two handed] damage at 5th tier)
or maybe make the feats upgradeables like in iron heroes with this options or alike
Except for a few points, I'm pretty much in agreement with Peter. Mythic Saves needs to be changed, Surge needs to stop taking your swift/immediate action, Unstoppable should include more things, Immortal should be a universal Path power (though giving everyone Timeless Body would be a nice touch), and tracking mythic vs. non-mythic damage is a pain in the butt.
The feats, like he said, are just bonkers. Mythic +2/+2 feats don't even deserve to exist. I do personally like the damage bonus from Mythic Power Attack and Mythic Vital Strike, but the language on MPA does severely need to be cleaned up.
More variety in Mythic Feats is probably the single most needed thing in the whole rule set, IMO.
Any chance we could get a slightly better selection of feats, particularly for casters and two-weapon fighters?
I agree with pretty much everything you said, except this... i think these feats do favor two-weapon fighters- certainly more than two-handed fighters. (unless theres been updates since i downloaded the rules) mythic weapon finesse applies to attack rolls and damage (with any melee weapon)- allowing you to ignore str and focus completely on dex (which, beside improving AC, init, etc, opens up the later 2-weapon feats), plus it isn't halved for an off-hand weapon like str... add to this that mythic power attack just adds 3 damage/1 point of attack penalty to "melee damage rolls" (which doesn't benefit 2-handers at all since they already got that- but allows two-weapon fighters to get that on every attack, from either hand) and you're 3rd tier dual wielder can dish out quite a bit of damage...
frankly, i was surprised by how potent these rules are. i've been running a modified gestalt campaign (every character gets one PC class and one NPC class) and we decided to switch over a character to see how this compared to that (the cleric/adept4 volunteered to become a tier 2 heirophant/cleric4)- as we worked out the conversion it became obvious that he was just going to be too powerful to even try out in that context. and, imo, it seems like non-mythic monsters are completely worthless against them (unless, maybe, you doing a high number of encounters per day).
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Peter, the rason no Mythic Meta magic feats have been added is the unspoken rule of only casting one nonquickend spell per round and with the Path ability Metamastery if you wnat to take three levels of metastery you can metamagic all your spells except those cast by arcane surge. Static bonues for martial feats ae somewhat boreing ut with out changing the whole system I do not see a way around them.
A Mythic feat for Martial types that I would like to see is:
Mythic Weapon Mastery
Prerequsites: Weapons Training 2 orGreater Weapons Focus and Greater Weapon Specalization. Mythic Tier 2
Beifit You Gain +2 to hit and damage with one weapon of your choice that
you have in your highest weapons trainng group or that you have Greater Weapons focus and Greater weaons speicalization. This +2 bouns stacks with all other Weapons taining or weapons peiclization feats that you have.
This feat may be taken each time you gain a new mythic feat its effects stack with each other or you may take a new weapon that you meet the requirements for.
Improved Chanel shold be changd to add 1d12 of healing or damage per Mythic Tier and change th die type of the non mythic chanel to d12.
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Peter, the rason no Mythic Meta magic feats have been added is the unspoken rule of only casting one nonquickend spell per round and with the Path ability Metamastery if you wnat to take three levels of metastery you can metamagic all your spells except those cast by arcane surge. Static bonues for martial feats ae somewhat boreing ut with out changing the whole system I do not see a way around them.
I'll get to metamastery soon enough - preview: I think it is the single worst of the path ability for half a dozen reasons and should be shredded, burned, and scattered into the wind.
A Mythic feat for Martial types that I would like to see is:
Mythic Weapon Mastery
Prerequsites: Weapons Training 2 orGreater Weapons Focus and Greater Weapon Specalization. Mythic Tier 2
Beifit You Gain +2 to hit and damage with one weapon of your choice that
you have in your highest weapons trainng group or that you have Greater Weapons focus and Greater weaons speicalization. This +2 bouns stacks with all other Weapons taining or weapons peiclization feats that you have.
This feat may be taken each time you gain a new mythic feat its effects stack with each other or you may take a new weapon that you meet the requirements for.
Absolutely not. The entire point of using mythic points and all that is to avoid simply handing out large bonuses to key attributes (to hit, ac, saves, ect). This goes completely against everything I would want out of mythic, and that I believe Paizo is trying to achieve.
Improved Chanel shold be changd to add 1d12 of healing or damage per Mythic Tier and change th die type of the non mythic chanel to d12.
This isn't a bad idea per-say.
I agree with pretty much everything you said, except this... i think these feats do favor two-weapon fighters- certainly more than two-handed fighters.
I'm not going to deny that weapon finesse is powerful, though I'll point you at dervish dance which does the same thing pre-epic (admittedly with stronger requirements and more limitations). As I've said on power attack - it needs to be cleaned up because right now it's almost unintelligible.
Those were the only two feats I saw that were meaningful for TWF at all - and they both have other larger applications. Did I miss something?
Personally, I hope that most of the feats that provide just numeric bonuses are removed. It is too common for things to die in a single round at high levels, so we don't need things like power attack becoming even more powerful.
Matrix Dragon So what are yo ging to give Mrtial types to balance what you are giving casters? O do you just hate martial yypes and nat to completly overbalance te game in favor of casters? Mythic power attack is very balanced IMO Just a slight improvement to power attack
Way to jump to conclusions, lol. Maybe I'd rather that mythic feats give martials fun supernatural abilities that actually put them on par with casters instead of just letting them hit harder?
Also, this 'slight improvement' from mythic power attack is not as small as you make it out to be. Once it starts getting multiplied from two-handed fighting, high bab, and multiple attacks that +1 bonus per 4 bab can end up adding 30 points to a BAB +20 character's damage per round.... and that's assuming he doesn't even get a critical hit. That is *way* too much benefit from a single feat.
I have an issue with the fact that damage at high levels ramps up faster than the hit points gained per level. I'm hoping that the mythic rules will alleviate this problem, not make it worse.
What I really want to see is some Mythic Building Guides. Exactly what Peter gets at in most of his issues...how to build paths/abilities/feats/magic/etc. with balance.
I think providing a small set of examples (like what this document gives in the mythic feats and such) is a nice way to get a point across, but Mythic play by itself should be something much more customizable per table than a set of static X and Y.
And, I agree pretty much with everything Peter mentions and his suggestions for improvement.
Matrix Dragon So what are yo ging to give Mrtial types to balance what you are giving casters? O do you just hate martial yypes and nat to completly overbalance te game in favor of casters? Mythic power attack is very balanced IMO Just a slight improvment to power attack
Yes! What are you going to give married characters? It is unfair to discriminate against them based on their marital status in favor of... wait. Casters? Spellcasters can be single. I'm so confused.
In all seriousness, I can't understand most of these sentences. Any chance you could do basic editing so that your points are legible?
Aside, anyone who reads the mythic rules and concludes that martial characters got nothing is deluding themselves behind tier based nonsense - and is in my opinion not really worth the time of day.
What does mythic give martial characters? Lets start with full attacks every single round - and an extra attack as well.
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Peter what feats would you suggest for martial characters? The Martial path powers are just fine IMO so are most of the Path powers for casters
the feature powers seem to fine too so It would appear to me that feats and Mythic magic items need to be worked on. More Mythic spels need to added also
Would you add a Multi-spell feat for Casters? What feats would you like to see for Casters? What type of Mythic Magic Items would you like to see. I wold like to see a Ring that allows a caster to store an x ammount of unused Mythic Power. Mythic Power for Magic Weapons that do more engery damage say 4d6 per hit, this would also cover alignmet based damage mabye mythic bane just a power up of the normal bane weapon power.
How wold you change Mythic Saves?
Peter what feats would you suggest for martial characters? The Martial path powers are just fine IMO so are most of the Path powers for casters
the feature powers seem to fine too so It would appear to me that feats and Mythic magic items need to be worked on. More Mythic spels need to added alsoWould you add a Multi-spell feat for Casters? What feats would you like to see for Casters? What type of Mythic Magic Items would you like to see. I wold like to see a Ring that allows a caster to store an x ammount of unused Mythic Power. Mythic Power for Magic Weapons that do more engery damage say 4d6 per hit, this would also cover alignmet based damage mabye mythic bane just a power up of the normal bane weapon power.
How wold you change Mythic Saves?
I'll get to path powers eventually - my current feeling is that they run mostly towards overwhelming or underwhelming, with very few in the middle.
Mythic magic items are not something I've seen enough of to make any kind of statement about. I'm reluctant to say too strong or too weak, boring or interesting, based on so few examples. As a whole though I'd like to see them as typically unique, functioning in ways outside the norm (perhaps powered by mythic uses) and providing things other than bonuses to ability scores, armor class, saving throws, and so forth.
Feats, in keeping with my desire to see a larger pool of mythic power and more frequent mythic use, would run towards a lot of "expend a mythic power use as a free action to ____". I provided examples of some reworks above that should give you some insight into what I believe is a viable and interesting direction for them.
I would not support multispell. I might support reworking things like metamastery into mythic metamagic feats for specific metamagic feats (quicken jumps to mind, probably requiring a higher mythic tier to take). As a whole though, I think a decision needs to be made somewhat forcefully as to what the primary path should be for mythic casters. This current split between anemic mythic spells and overpowered metamagic abilities (especially after 3-4 uses) is not a plus. I'd also like to see a firm divide between mythic spells and metamagic - you should not be able to apply metamagic to mythic spells by standard means (if they are going to be a balanced option vs. metamagic power ups).
I've already outlined what I'd do about mythic saves - I would change it to roll twice and take better result vs. non-mythic foes, while turning the mythic saves feats into burn a mythic point to roll twice or reroll against any foe.
Please, read what I've posted before commenting. A large number of these questions have direct answers above.
Rerolls and roll 2d20, take the best are much better abilities to give than +X to rolls, as long as we are keeping the system away from flat bonuses.
Giving more turns per round is superior to giving more actions per turn, for reasons pointed out on Final Thoughts Mythic Initiative. Moving between rounds swiftly is important for players, so they aren't just sitting there waiting for someone to finish their turn. It is also reasons that things like mythic time stop are poorly thought out.
Giving improved mettle/evasion to all mythic characters is probably ok, although I will echo Pete's point about dynamics. If the problem is that characters are always either auto-failing or auto-succeeding, then introducing something that mitigates the impact of failure is preferable to something that makes success even more sweet.