Ok, how do I start. Maybe I explain the situation first.
We are playing the Way of the Wicked AP from Fire Mountain Games and the players all play various villains (with me dming). The Path expects the player characters more or less lawful evil because it is very Asmodeus specific. The pc don´t need to be religious - but lawful evil or at least neutral evil (read: NOT CHAOTIC evil). The pc should be tyranns not spastic evil maniacs... (at least thats not my imagination of this campaign).
So was the premise when the players created their pcs. The witch has an taken Improved Familiar at level 7 and took the Imp (Lawful Evil). Now the player did more or less with purpose bring about an alignment change (he likes to play chaotic evil characteres).
What will now happen to his Imp Familiar? Normaly a spellcaster can only take an Improved Familiar with a matching alignment. The witch has an Ring which protects her from reading her alignement and thoughts. But I think her actions will speak for themselves after a while. The Imp is not stupid - and she will be no servant of Asmodeus anymore (the Alignment change was by meditating for a while in a chamber of the horsemen of the apocalypse - after she had been told that there is an risk of going insane).
- Would it be a dick move to take her familiar away?
- How can the familar detect she no longer serves Asmodeus cause with that ring? Her actions?
- She repeatedly told me and the players that Asmodeus is her patron. While I know per RAW that the witch is no divine spellcaster - what consequences could this have for her in regard to her alignment change? Could even Asmodeus deny her her spells?
@OP: Your post is rather hard to read, you never state that the witch in question is CE, you only allude to that fact several sentences/paragraphs after the point it would make sense to mention that fact (along with Imp alignment).
Imps don't give a f!#@ if you worship Asmodeus or not. Their 'job' is to ensure your soul ends up in Hell, if you are already LE or worshipping Asmodeus, that will already happen, so for those characters the rules mentioning the Imps' agenda is totally superfluous (they will just continue to be LE bastards who will screw around with you for just their personal interests).
The Imp can still try to manipulate the witch's alignment into shifting, just because she is CE doesn't mean she will always be so. You don't need to be LE to select an Imp, although N is normally the extent allowed to SELECT an imp, being CE is just more of a challenge than NE. Normal Devils are also supposed to try and influence/manipulate mortals into becoming LE, regardless of Familiar/Master status, so the behavior isn't substantially different here. Also note "SELECT", if the witch is now CE then she couldn't select a new Imp, but the existing one can continue to 'serve'.
The imp can also act evil and do things not exactly ideal for the witch... if they think that will help their long term strategy, or just if they get pissed at the witch for whatever reason. I believe that if the Witch dies before the Imp, the Imp can 'grab' her Soul and take it to Hell, regardless of the Witch's Alignment, so if the Imp feels like the Witch is resisting his efforts for LE alignment shift, and doesn't like the Witch, then he could try to get her killed... Shielding alignment from detection is mostly irrelevant, if you act Chaotic the Imp will likely realize that unless you are really taking serious means to conceal your Alignment from magical and mundane observations, if you act Lawful then your Alignment will shift away from Chaotic. I'm not sure how (if) a Re-Incarnation would work if the Imp has 'taken' the Witch's Soul, if it's allowed to work, that Imp would probably want to get revenge later, probably the Imp would try and re-birth the soul as a Devil ASAP once they are in Hell, after which you can't be rezz'ed.
The bigger issue sounds like the player willingly trying to subvert the assumptions of the AP, by being chaotic (I guess they didn't start that way but willingly went into it when not needed), although I can't say how important that is to the AP and whatever.
About the Asmodeus Patron thing, when the player told me that I would be very clear that "OK that is what your character BELIEVES", it's made clear in the rules that the identity/nature of the Patron is mysterious even to the Witch themself. They can tell other characters whatever they want of course.
Prerequisites: Ability to acquire a new familiar, compatible alignment, sufficiently high level (see below).
Benefit: When choosing a familiar, the creatures listed here are also available to you. You may choose a familiar with an alignment up to one step away on each alignment axis (lawful through chaotic, good through evil).
I think its absolutly within the rules to take his familiar from him after reading up the feat. He can kill it and took a new one (ok costs him 3.500 gold and a lot of learned spells. Thats the price to pay if you willingly go insane ;)
First I want to penalize him for playing repeatedly against our rules. All players hold the lawful evil (or at least neutral evil) ideals up. But no... HE must again make some ingame decicions which "allow" him to play his spastic evil maniac (naturally he will say he must because the adventure forced the alignment change upon him - but he was very eager to visit the chamber even after knowing of the danger to become insane).
He just will use this as an excuse - on the other hand he told me already he don´t want that his alignment changes back. Exact wording of him:"How could I make the insanity go away? Not that I want it to go away!"
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Force the alignment change. Have the Imp gather water for his master, and have him get it from the same water that transforms Grumblejack into this current form, but instead have it make the witch no longer insane, and the pinnacle of lawful. It'd mean a template, and that he'd be getting 10% less xp for a level or two, or it's definitely a solution.
lol @ kevin video... you seem to solve every problem with some template?
I don´t want to reward her!
She shall experience some consequences of her actions!
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lol @ kevin video... you seem to solve every problem with some template?
I don´t want to reward her!
She shall experience some consequences of her actions!
There's rarely a reward for a template. What you could do to compensate is have her lose a level, or have that be her next level. Make them gain a negative level that can't be removed except for buying it off with levels and/or experience.
But yes, I tend to try solve things with templates. I get that from my Friday DM. That's how he does it. When it doubt, template it.
Just to point out: this isnt the only CE minion that asmodeus or Cardinal Thorne use. they use frost giants, a black dragon, boggards and bugbears. Alao use NE daemons. They are just a mean to an end. So it is not impossible for the PC to be CE. However, this might make her relationship with the imp veeeeery problematic. But besides that, he can play as CE.
If the player behaves as a chaotic moron, tell him to stop messing with the rest od the table's fun, including yours.
Ok, just by RAW (maybe the wrong forum for this question):
Would you let her keep her familiar. The feat clearly has prerequisite a more or less (one step away) alignment requirement. Does the ring of mind shielding protect somehow influence that? By raw no.
I wouldn't allow the familiar. You can't have the cake and eat it too. The requirement is a restriction on you, not on the familiar, so mind shield does not help it at all. It's *you* who can't take a familiar more than 1 step away from your alignment.
If the imp dies... can she summon simply a quasit? Or is she stuck with regular familiars? Just in case...
If the imp dies... can she summon simply a quasit? Or is she stuck with regular familiars? Just in case...
I'd let him to take a quasit, I don't see why he couldn't. The rules about familiars say that
"if the familiar is dismissed, killed or lost it can be replaced 1 week later through a specialized ritual that costs 200 gp per wizard level"
You could get a Bat familiar if your Toad Familiar dies.
Improved Familiars follow the rules for regular familiars, except it's not a magical beast unless noted so, and you can take a familiar from an extended table.
He should be able to replace his Imp with a Quasit, or any other appropiated familiar within 1 shift of his alignment... provided that he spends 8 hours and 200 gp per character level in a ritual, that is.
And remember: Non-detection means nothing. The requirement is not in the familiar, it's in the witch. And the witch can't cast non-detection to avoid *her* to know her own aligment.
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I would imagine that an alignment shift would void the carefully worded master/familiar agreement that was signed before the imp preformed any familiar services. The player has just lost all claim to the imp as a familiar and loosed it to preform evil on the world. Now, there is most likely a stipulation pertaining to forced alignment shifts that would allow the PC to exert control over the imp again if they made steps to recover their old alignment. Or they could always get a new familiar.
Talk to the player. Make it clear your concerns. Suggest some options. And if it is clear that they are not willing to make concessions and will not cooperate, the imp can drag the character's soul to hell for breach of contract and the player can be encouraged to find a game that facilitates their 'unique' playstyle.