We have a GM that seems to largely use template adjusted enemies. I don’t have a problem with that. It makes it interesting and unpredictable. Hill giant again, it will throw a rock then charge with a club. Vs. Advanced fiendish half-dragon minotaur sorcerer ghoul, now what the carp is that thing going to try to do to us?
That’s great. However, it seems to make it so that offensive spell casters have a tough time. Many of them now have SR and most have really high save bonuses. So almost every spell cast they make the save to take the reduced, minor, or no-affect. It has been making it so the spell casters often seem to be a "was-also-there" instead of one of the heroes. The martial characters are doing almost all the work.
A couple of us were discussing strategies to deal with this non-standard situation. Yes, we could make a primarily buffing/support caster but that isn’t really what we were looking for. We have both played that relatively recently and want to be able to bring the hurt. We were able to come up with possible avenues and we’re looking for input. Both are a form of extreme specialization instead of a more balanced caster.
1) Really go for the SoS/SoD spells in a big way. Absolutely max the save DC’s of our spells. Things like greater spell penetration, greater spell focus, heighten spell, max casting stat, bouncing spell, misfortune revelation, etc… Everything to give the greatest chance for the bad guy to fail the save and take the full badness.
2) Go for no save spells (and maybe so no SR spells). Which seems to be largely rays. The bad effects are less, but it would be much more consistent.
Which do you think would work better? Have you actually tried it? Do you have any build advice for either or both possibilities?
Do you have a different idea?
Vague answers, suggestions that don't apply to your particular characters, examples of completely different ways to play . . .
Or, you could actually tell us the classes, levels, builds, and other information necessary to get a useful answer.
I find SoS/SoD spells to work well as you listed it with one major caveat. Make sure you talk to your group and DM and make sure they are OK with you using them.
I know they are allowed by the rules... but some groups and DM's HATE them. If the DM is unwilling to let his monster die on the very first attack because of a failed saving throw then give these a pass. You also have to be willing to go several rounds with no real effect when the dice go against you.
I personally love them... and my group still tells stories to this day when the big bad from a long campaign was one shotted with a Slay Living bullet after the bad guy rolled a one. (D20 Modern Urban Arcana Game) Some groups may call that anti-climactic but my group loved it. (Think Indiana Jones pulling a gun on the sword guy.) SOD LINK.
If any of the above things turn you or your group off... you are better going with rays and orbs for damage and buffing or crowd control options.
Piercing Spell is a +1 adjustment metamagic feat that might help with the SR. It gives you +5 to the check. Pick up a rod.
You can also work things in combo to bring down monster saves. A bards crushing despair + a witches hexes + wizard debuffes can really lower defenses (although it might not help with SR).
Rays are pretty impressive.
For straight up damage, it sounds like acid spells are probably your best bet, as most of them do not need to worry about spell resistance. If you're worried about resistances, Elemental Spell could help get through that as well (not sure if you're a prepared or spontaneous caster, which may change how likely that is to be useful).
Otherwise, battlefield control (e.g. wall spells, pits, and so on) can be great, though if you're being assaulted by multiple-templated monsters, does that imply there are generally fewer numbers of them? (In which case, battlefield control is less of a big deal.)
As was mentioned, Summons can be very nice contributions, even if they're only there to tank and flank, while debuffs can be great for making it easier to cut through saves, though less so for SR.
Those are a couple thoughts at least.
Buff and use stuff like wall of force and summons to sculpt the battlefield. Screw their mental defenses, you'll just make your fighters stab them instead, after you've forced them into the worst possible engagement option.
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Are you a wizard? If yes, and your going for kill counts...stop. In a game with highly optimized template critters, your not gonna get kill counts with a wizard. Hell even in normal games you generally don't. Control the field (there are plenty of no save no SR screw you in your arsenal). Buff the party. Before you use the save or die, prep the enemies if you can. Enervate is awesome for this. But even then, don't expect much kill counts. But your field control will be far more important then kill counts anyways.
Are you a cleric? If yes and you want kill counts, don't bother with damage spells. Buff yourself up and go join the fighters.
Are you an oracle? See above.
Are you a sorcerer? Well now we can do some spell killing. In this case, yes pump up your DC and SR penetration and blast away. Piercing + the two SR feats + elf = +11 to SR checks. Craft a pair of nullifying weapons for your TWF person. If you have issues with SR with that, you need to just not play casters in that game. Remember that you still want the prep spells (like enervate) before spamming your kill spells.
Vague answers, suggestions that don't apply to your particular characters, examples of completely different ways to play . . .
Or, you could actually tell us the classes, levels, builds, and other information necessary to get a useful answer.
I don't have a build. Neither one of us have built a really specialized caster like this. We have built and used several hybrid casters, fairly generalist or specialized in support casters. Diviner wizard, buff cleric, pretty lousy bard, healbot oracle, etc...
I was trying to get a feel for if either concept is a really good or really bad idea. It already sounds like several people think either could work.
... with one major caveat. Make sure you talk to your group and DM and make sure they are OK with you using them ... but some groups and DM's HATE them. If the DM is unwilling to let his monster die on the very first attack because of a failed saving throw then give these a pass. ...
That is a very good point that I had not considered. We don't meet again for a couple of weeks. I will be sure to bring t up then.
Well, there are also battlefield control, like Grease, Web, and Fog Cloud.
Then there are also Summons.
You don't need blasts and direct debuffs to contribute.
You also don't need to stick to buffs only.
Grease and web are fine. That is still doing something to the bad guys. I didn't mean to imply only direct damage. Though I think most of the no save spells are.
We as a group have agreed to really hold back on the summon spells. we usually have 5 or 6 players and 1 or 2 NPC's along with the group. The round is already pretty slow. If we add a bunch of summons it almost grinds to a halt.
We have been working on it, but our group is not terribly good at tactics. Things like fog cloud tend to hurt us at least as much as the bad guys. We are trying to improve, but I would be worried about relying on that too much.
Piercing Spell is a +1 adjustment metamagic feat that might help with the SR. It gives you +5 to the check. Pick up a rod.
You can also work things in combo to bring down monster saves. A bards crushing despair + a witches hexes + wizard debuffes can really lower defenses (although it might not help with SR).
Actually piercing was what I had meant to put in option 1) above not bouncing. Yeah, that would be a biggie.
None of us have tried a witch, so that is certainly a possibility that sounds interesting. Debuff hexes is doing something to the bad guys.
... Otherwise, battlefield control (e.g. wall spells, pits, and so on) can be great, though if you're being assaulted by multiple-templated monsters, does that imply there are generally fewer numbers of them? (In which case, battlefield control is less of a big deal.) ...
Yes there tend to be only 1 opponent. If there are mooks, they usually (though not always) so much weaker they can be almost ignored.
Are you a wizard? If yes, and your going for kill counts...stop. In a game with highly optimized template critters, your not gonna get kill counts with a wizard. Hell even in normal games you generally don't. Control the field (there are plenty of no save no SR screw you in your arsenal). Buff the party. Before you use the save or die, prep the enemies if you can. Enervate is awesome for this. But even then, don't expect much kill counts. But your field control will be far more important then kill counts anyways.
Are you a cleric? If yes and you want kill counts, don't bother with damage spells. Buff yourself up and go join the fighters.
Are you an oracle? See above.
Are you a sorcerer? Well now we can do some spell killing. In this case, yes pump up your DC and SR penetration and blast away. Piercing + the two SR feats + elf = +11 to SR checks. Craft a pair of nullifying weapons for your TWF person. If you have issues with SR with that, you need to just not play casters in that game. Remember that you still want the prep spells (like enervate) before spamming your kill spells.
Doesn't have to be kill counts. But I want to be doing something to the bad guys. I've done a lot of support, buff, info, etc... before and want to try to effectively do something to the bad guys. But it doesn't have to be kill. If they fail their save vs a slow spell, that is still plenty o fun. A blinded and deafened opponent is definitely contributing.
I guess I said the SoD spells in option 1) because whenever I see really high DC build they are always for SoD spells. I have no particular problem with really high saves for debuffs either. If it can be made to work.
I don't have a class yet. Once I decide on a concept, I will try to figure out how to do it. I will be looking for help with that as well.
If you want to ignore SR, conjuration spells seem like the smartest bet. Things like Aqueous Orb, Black Tentacles, and a lot of the acid based damaging spells don't bother with SR, so taking spell focus on conjuration can give you options to get through that and raise the DC on avoiding them. Piercing Metamagic, as mentioned, can be a good help in getting through that too, and spell penetration is probably worthwhile, just overall.
For saves, lots of touch spells ignore them, but the same ones will usually allow for spell resistance too. Persistent spell is great for making it more difficult though, and any kind of debuffs that you can apply ahead of time can help a lot.
A sorcerer might be useful in this case as you can load up on spells that ignore SR or don't allow saving throws, and use them as the situation demands. Applying metamagic (Piercing and/or Persistent) on the spot helps too, depending on what you need, though Spell Focus and Penetration are probably still smart to grab to make it that much easier.
If you want to go blasty with one, Draconic arcana will give you some extra damage on the element of your choice (as I said, you might like acid for skipping SR), and you can take elemental spell to switch it up. Elemental arcana lets you convert any energy damage into that of your bloodline, so that can be useful too. Arcane's increase to the saving throw DC may be useful too if you foresee using metamagic a lot.
A witch's hexes are frickin' potent without a doubt and even better if you just don't much want to deal with either SR or saves at all. Especially if you're only having one enemy usually, or at least fairly few, just pick up Evil Eye, hang out behind the martials, and apply -2 or -4 to the enemy's everything (don't forget to Cackle). Bust out a Misfortune if you think it'll work (Accursed Hex on it can make it harder to resist too), and that enemy is in some major trouble.
If you also have multiple people who want to be spellcasting (sounded like it from the OP?), just having a witch to put the penalty on saves is already a big deal, and all of the above feats can still help for your actual spellcasting too. Having a witch in the party might be one of your best bets actually.
So, there's some more thoughts :P
... with one major caveat. Make sure you talk to your group and DM and make sure they are OK with you using them ... but some groups and DM's HATE them. If the DM is unwilling to let his monster die on the very first attack because of a failed saving throw then give these a pass. ...That is a very good point that I had not considered. We don't meet again for a couple of weeks. I will be sure to bring t up then.
Well, we talked it over and decided we didn't want to specialize in SoD spells. Seems like it might be anticlimactic sometimes and could feel like we are trying to marginalize some of the other players. If after 4 rounds of 3 characters whaling on it there is finally a failed save, that would mean the 80% damage they had done was meaningless. They were just a distraction while the caster did the real work. That is not what we are looking for.
So I think we want to go for no save and/or no spell resistance affects on the bad guys. (We still haven’t decided which of us will run the character.)
So are most of the spells of this type arcane or divine? My friend thought there were a lot of touch divine spells that didn’t have saves and/or ignored SR but I haven’t looked through them yet. Touch spells are risky for a primary caster but there are ways around that.
I like the concept of the witch (though I’m not big on prepared casters), but I thought all the decent hexes allowed a save. Are there a bunch of feats I don’t know about to increase those save DC’s? I don’t see how the target successfully saving against my hex is a whole lot better than him saving against my spell. Except that I can usually use the hex over again. Does a hex ignore SR? I guess I had just assumed it was affected by SR.
Vague answers, suggestions that don't apply to your particular characters, examples of completely different ways to play . . .
Or, you could actually tell us the classes, levels, builds, and other information necessary to get a useful answer.
I don't have a build. Neither one of us have built a really specialized caster like this. We have built and used several hybrid casters, fairly generalist or specialized in support casters. Diviner wizard, buff cleric, pretty lousy bard, healbot oracle, etc...
I was trying to get a feel for if either concept is a really good or really bad idea. It already sounds like several people think either could work.
I'm sorry, I took your statement "It has been making it so the spell casters often seem to be a 'was-also-there' instead of one of the heroes. The martial characters are doing almost all the work." to indicate that you are already playing spellcasters.
Theres a high dc blaster build built ard 1 level or sorc for crossblood and +2 damage dice to one element.. U then go full admixture wizard with spell spec, empower, intense, spell pens/focuses, elemantal focuses, spell perfection with quicken.. Most obvious choice is acid because its the least resisted of all elements availiable.. With that in mind Black/Green Dragon and Orc or Earth Elemental sorc and Tattooed Archetype 1/Admixture Wizard X.. Admixture allows u too switch the energy type of spells 3+int times per day and u can pick up elemental metamagic rods for boost that.. Take the trait that lower metamagics by 1 for free empower on fireball.. Example for 15th level with a 28int..
Standard Action: Cast Intensified, Empowered Acidball for 15d6+37x1.5 damage with a DC in the mid 30s for a 4th level spell slot and then quicken another via spell perfection.. Greater Spell Spec or Heighten/Preferred Spell allow u too blow s!%& up all day..
Dazing (or Rime wizard) Use the trick of elemental control to allow you to apply Elemental Focus (and GEF) to your DCs, as well as SF. Combine with snapdragon fireworks and magic missile. Bigger monsters reflex saves take a hit due to size.
Spell slinger. Gun can boost DC of saves up to +5.
Witch. Roll enough dice (misfortune) and someone will fail a save...
Can also look at battle scarred witch for a frontline caster.
Cleric: Madness domain. Give the monsters a boost to skills, and thus a debuff to attacks and saves. No save.
Oracle: Heavens Display. SAD your Charisma.
Summoner: Since you don't like summoned monsters (agree) go the synthesist route.
Go look in the arena for sample builds of Synthesist and Spellslinger.
I'm sorry, I took your statement "It has been making it so the spell casters often seem to be a 'was-also-there' instead of one of the heroes. The martial characters are doing almost all the work." to indicate that you are already playing spellcasters.Vague answers, suggestions that don't apply to your particular characters, examples of completely different ways to play . . .
Or, you could actually tell us the classes, levels, builds, and other information necessary to get a useful answer.
I don't have a build. Neither one of us have built a really specialized caster like this. We have built and used several hybrid casters, fairly generalist or specialized in support casters. Diviner wizard, buff cleric, pretty lousy bard, healbot oracle, etc...
I was trying to get a feel for if either concept is a really good or really bad idea. It already sounds like several people think either could work.
Ok, my misunderstanding back. I do not have the new build(s) to propose that. Which is what I thought you were asking for. We have had casters in the party. But they have been fairly general builds without much specialization (or optimization really). The prior builds were:
Halfling diviner with a 20 casting stat. He had spell focus necromancy (had not gotten the greater yet). I think he only had one major enemy fail a save against his necromancy spells. He used them pretty often against the mooks, but that really didn't contribute much. Made excellent use of divination spells out of combat to find out a bunch of information well before the AP expected.
Drow cleric that was trying to be a back-up melee. But he wanted to be able to use some offensive spells. I don't think anything ever failed the save. He switched to buff spells for a while before he was disintigrated.
Gnome bard (I don't remember the build exactly but I think he had greater spell focus enchantment), He was wanting to use charms to turn enemies to friends. Templates made it so most things were immune to charms. Those times they were technically vulnerable he either didn't beat SR or the target made the save. The charms were however, very useful for info gathering and he started taking more buff spells.
Don't get me wrong, the casters were successful in many respects. Info, buffing, negotiations, skills, and the (small amount) of battle field control that we know how to use well. We had fun with them. But they weren't all that great as offensive weapons. We would like to try changing that and don't really know the best way.
I am aware that part of the issue has been the group and individual players. Historically our group has had 1 sneak, 3 martial characters, and 1 caster. So the caster felt like he had to be kind of a generalist to cover alot of magic needs. Right or wrong, that is how we did it. Now we have 2 or more that are willing to play casters or at least hybrid casters. So we feel like we can specialize more than before and still have the breadth or coverage we want.
I haven't kept track but at a rough guess, I would say that for major opponents (not just the BBEG but other serious fights) somewhere around 1 in 3 or 4 have enough SR to make 2/3rds of the spells fail right off the bat. The templates make it dificult to tell what is the worst save (if there is a worst). And just watching what the GM rolls, most of them have their worst save bonus is better than any of our PC's best save bonus by a 50%. Many of our spell DC's were in the range or 18-20 (this was around 6-8 level) and the monsters usually succeed at their save on a 7+.
Probably also ought to mention, our campaigns usually die out around level 11-13. So builds that really start getting good in the mid teens don't do much for me.
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Glitterdust is a good "party spell"; it stops invisibility so that everyone can see/target the monster (no save, no SR), and possibly blinds the monster (save, still no SR), which means that other party members can then attack it better. Keep in mind that blind enemies lose Dex bonus to AC, so they're vulnerable to Sneak Attack. And in your case, it doesn't feel like you "stole" the encounter with a blast or SoD, because you helped the other players beat up the monster more easily.
Admixture Evokers are also an option for you: get enough Knowledge (probably Planes) to recognize what template the creature is using, what it's resistant to. Then circumvent it through admixture. Bonus points if you can apply Rime Spell to slow down the monsters.
Dazing (or Rime wizard) Use the trick of elemental control to allow you to apply Elemental Focus (and GEF) to your DCs, as well as SF. Combine with snapdragon fireworks and magic missile. Bigger monsters reflex saves take a hit due to size...
I kinda like this concept. Will it work as well with a sorc?
... Spell slinger. Gun can boost DC of saves up to +5....
I'm not big on guns in a fantasy game. But if the other guy ends up running it he will look into this.
... Witch. Roll enough dice (misfortune) and someone will fail a save...
Can also look at battle scarred witch for a frontline caster. ...
Don't want a frontliner. But I like this. I have to look at misfortune. Is it the same as the oracle misfortune?
... Cleric: Madness domain. Give the monsters a boost to skills, and thus a debuff to attacks and saves. No save....
Yeah, this one is a kool idea. I do like the madness domain. It is kinda hard to justify in a very good party. But I am most likely to try this one.
... Oracle: Heavens Display. SAD your Charisma....
I am playing an oracle now, so want something different. The other guy hasn't tried one, so it will go on his list.
... Summoner: Since you don't like summoned monsters (agree) go the synthesist route. ...
I thought this was mostly a way to make a magic melee machine not a caster. Am I wrong?
I am in the distinct minority that I *love* heighten as a feat for sorcerors.
You lose out on 1 DC as a sorcerer, and you lose out on the admixture ability. On the flip side, there are sorcerer bloodlines that let you apply cold to any spell, and increase the DC. So yes, its possible to do.
If you want to go the sorcerer route you can go a kitsune build. Again, one player built a very nice build for Hold Monster with DC 31 at 11th level.
As for the Cleric: I would look at samsaran. There are some good offensive spells in druid, paladin etc classes. Cold sliver when you get 6th level spells. I am particularly fond of Divine strategist, but I don't think the madness domain is particularly conducive.
A witch and madness domain cleric can be absolutely brutal. I do not think you should dismiss battle scarred witchs that easily.
You lose *nothing* in switching to con as your casting stat - and you gain incredible hp. It takes a SAD class and makes it SADder
... I do not think you should dismiss battle scarred witchs that easily.
You lose *nothing* in switching to con as your casting stat - and you gain incredible hp. It takes a SAD class and makes it SADder
I'm assuming you mean the scarred witch doctor for orcs. I had only head of them as melee build casters.
It has possibilities. Though trashes your mental stats and will make it hard in lots of cities.... Summoner: Since you don't like summoned monsters (agree) go the synthesist route. ...I thought this was mostly a way to make a magic melee machine not a caster. Am I wrong?
Was looking at this some more. Summoner doesn't have many offensive spells, but does have a few decent ones. Could again go Samsaran to get up to 5 other arcane spells.
The sythesist edelon would let me pick a bunch of defensive options like energy immunities and AC, the extra senses like tremorsense and blind sight, as well as movement like wings and burrow. All while completely dumping my physical stats and not taking any defensive feats or traits.My spells would not be as high a level which would lower the save DC a bit though. But this has definite possibilities.
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If you facing a lot of single monsters, abuse the hell out of a rimed piercing frigid touch. Ignore rimed for anything immune to cold (or period...all it does is add a no save entangle effect if they take cold damage...but just piercing for SR off a meta rod works just fine). Can add reach spell for safety sake.