Ok, As yall've probably noticed, I have tons of questions up on these forums. Ive only been at this 3 weeks and I'm now committed to 4 campaigns and some occasional PFS games. So I'm in a little deep and need to make characters. I need a two weapon fighter, here the quick view of whats allowed and what I want and my final thoughts:
Rise of Runelords (Pathfinder AP)
- *3rd party stuff possibly allowed
*hero points enabled
*20pt buy, no drow or goblin
*Monks get full BAB.
*Point Blank Shot is no longer a prerequisite for Precise Shot. However, it is still a prerequisite for any feat that has Precise Shot as a prerequisite, such as Improved Precise Shot.
*Weapon Finesse is a free feat for weapon-focused classes, including every class with full BAB, rogues, monks, magi, clerics or inquisitors with the War domain, or oracles with the Battle mystery. Certain archetypes may also qualify.
*Rolling a 20 for both the critical threat and the confirmation gives max damage.
*party can stop worrying about encumbrance, I'll won't make you track mundane consumables like ammunition and food.
What I Want
~Two weapon user
~Im in love with Kantana, Wakizashi, and Nodachi (probably butchered the spelling of them all)
~want a crit based build
~want insane damage like that of whatever God is a higher than the God of Pathfinder!
~Could care less if i am too dumb to even carry on conversations in this game
~want to be a master swordsman.
~light, med or no armor
~want good AC
~want good reflexes or evasion/imp evasion
~Dont care if i get PK'd instantly, as long a I looked cool fighting before i was insta killed by a low will save.
~other than this I could care less, please don't pick me some ugly ole uncool race though :)
What I've Looked At So Far
1. Looked at straight up Tengu Ranger(TWF focused) or Tengu Fighter(TWF focused)
2, Looked at Youxia hunter and Youxia Fighter (but I dont really understand the chart to figure out what I gain and loose)
3 Looked at Weapon Champion ranger and fighter(but I dont really understand the chart to figure out what I gain and loose)
4. Looked at Hunter
5. Looked at Bounty Hunter
6. Looked at Shadow Assassin
7. Looked at Scout and Spy
3 weeks in I got 300 hours of Pathfinder education and just found out there were prestige classes and 3rd party classes......
thank you for the help you guys are awesome!
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Try these on. Classic Ninja. Ninja/rogue feel, which may not be what you are going for.
Crit Fiend. Definitely more crit-centric, pumps out some great damage.
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Just going to throw a few (a lot really, hope you can take it all in) things out there. Tengu looks good with their blade training and all... until you notice their low con and a mid level baddie full attacks and slaughters you. Instead, get a human fighter/ranger, and use kukris. Weapon die damage slickly becomes irrelevant, the static (str+ all the other mojo) quickly becoming better. For evasion, I have a couple thoughts: dip 2 levels of Master of tMany Styles (MoMS) monk, which will snag you some snazzy style feats to help you survive combat (AKA crane style). Make stealth a class skill via a trait and take 2 levels of shadow dancer (maybe take a third and have an incorporeal companion make some fights irrelevant. Oh, you can't hit it? We'll wait outside while it knocks your strength to 0). Depending on how long the campaign goes depends on what you go for. Fighters can luckily retrain their feats, so if you grab two-weapon defense early, you can retrain it later when you can just afford a ring of force shield. The advantage to a ranger, however, is the ability to disregard those brutal dex requirements. An alternative is asking your GM for a homebrew feat that mimics dervish dance (dex to damage, normally scimitar only, and nothing in off-hand) for something like the kukri, so you can go pure dex. Power attack (or piranha strike for the dex based you, from the sargave book) is well worth it. Full BABers, esp fighters and rangers, have the to-hit to make it work. If you go non-archetype fighter (because really, the two-weapon fighter archetype sucks) you can eventually move full speed in full plate. Also, why TWF archetype sucks: the lessen on to-hit is meh, and late. The increase in die damage is far to minuscule to be relevant. The bonus to attack and damage? Got it from weapon training, which isn't as restricted. Also, gloves of dueling, works on weapon training, not the whatever the archetype gets. Gloves are an absolute must. Standard action, two attacks? DO NOT FALL FOR THIS TRAP. No matter what, at high levels, it's better to delay, letting the bad guy come to you, getting a single attack, and then full attacking him, rather than the opposite. Why do monk get full BAB, there is no point? When they flurry, they get full BAB. From what I've seen, monks don't have that many problems to hit as compared to a two-weapon fighter until the very high levels. And that's only because of weapon training, really. If you want absolutely insane damage (TWFer, but not with swords) may I direct you to the weapon cords shenanigans double-barreled gunslinger? This is a shameful build, but somewhere between 10-13 they can put out over 1000 damage (math is debated, but it's scary high. And complete munchkin). FINALLY, I have a suggestion to get over that low will save. 3 actually: Iron Will (YES), trait , and finally, there is a magic item in the Pathfinder book called Seeker of Secrets. If you have a way finder (a mere pittance of 500gp) you may socket an ioun stone in it to access it's resonant power in addition to it''s norma power. A clear spindle ioun stone normally gives immunity to hunger and there. Socketed, it makes you IMMUNE to mental control: suggestion, sleep, hold person, dominate, charm (BUT not confusion, it's not "control," but sleep has been ruled as control).
...I wrote more than I intended.
I checked the Ninja it looks good. Noticed ur ac was 18 at lvl 1 and 19 at 20, that's a wi little low for my expectations.
Are Agile weapons allowed? If so, a pure dex-based fighter is possible. I'm playing a Halfling fighter in a Legacy of Fire campaign, wielding a pair of agile +1 kukri. Piranha Strike replaces Power Attack. Halflings get Risky Striker to do additional damage to large+ opponents.
A 20 point Halfling build could be (Str 10, Con 13, Dex 20, Int 12, Wis 8, Cha 10). Dex is all important for to hit, damage, AC, initiative, reflex save. Halfling get a size bonus to hit. That bonus plus starting Dex of 20 helps counter the penalties of two weapon fighting and Piranha Strike.
This build starts off with an impressive to hit but piddling damage. The damage per round grows exponentially. By level 8 a full attack round will consist of 4 attacks with a large damage bonus that crit on 15-20.
A Dex-based fighter could use skills in Perception (always useful), Acrobatics (to avoid AoO's while closing), Escape Artist (grappling is a concern for low Str characters) and optionally Stealth (since it will be high). The Cad fighter archetype has most of these as class skills, but you probably don't want to give up Armor Training.
We aren't allowed to use gunslinger in this AP :( Also Im pretty stuck on the use of Kantana's or Wakizashi's. Would like to dual wield Kantana's but without TWF fighter archetype you never can wield that offhand Kantana without a pretty big penalty. I guess I could take the free weapon fin feat and use waki's but the damage is going to be a bit less than Kantana. So not sure.
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The AC for the Ninja is without any magical items or buffs. At Level 20 we might be looking at +5 armor, +5 amulet of natural armor, +5 ring of protection... anything really. With those 3 items it's 34, and, in any case, we have near permanent invisibility. In general you are looking for items and buffs to improve your AC, not the build.
Can you use the weapon master archetype? That works just as well for two-weapon, and rocks critical hits. Hence the crit-fiend.
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Wall of Text
Kiinyan, my friend: you had some good advice in there, but it was very, very painful to read!
Put some paragraph spaces in your reply and it will make your stream-of-consciousness prose much more useful to the people you are trying to help!
BZ: I like the Ninja build, but that Crit Fiend build is doomed. An 11 con for a melee fighter -- AND no power attack? Really?
Swing some weapon finesse and Piranha Strike so that you can overcome DR when you have to - and so that you can start with a 14 STR/CON and 18 DEX -- and focus all of your stat bumps on DEX for your Attack/AC and saves. Sub Weapon Finesse for Dodge and Piranha Strike for Defensive TWF.
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Wall of TextKiinyan, my friend: you had some good advice in there, but it was very, very painful to read!
Put some paragraph spaces in your reply and it will make your stream-of-consciousness prose much more useful to the people you are trying to help!
BZ: I like the Ninja build, but that Crit Fiend build is doomed. An 11 con for a melee fighter -- AND no power attack? Really?
Swing some weapon finesse and Piranha Strike so that you can overcome DR when you have to - and so that you can start with a 14 STR/CON and 18 DEX -- and focus all of your stat bumps on DEX for your Attack/AC and saves. Sub Weapon Finesse for Dodge and Piranha Strike for Defensive TWF.
Sorry! I originally meant to only mention a few things. It went longer than expected, so didn't have the structure I normally give.
Are Agile weapons allowed? If so, a pure dex-based fighter is possible. I'm playing a Halfling fighter in a Legacy of Fire campaign, wielding a pair of agile +1 kukri. Piranha Strike replaces Power Attack. Halflings get Risky Striker to do additional damage to large+ opponents.
I'm the GM. I don't see what the big deal over agile is (by the time you can afford it, the Strength-based fighters have been getting their STR bonus the whole time and are adding shocking or something so they're still ahead in damage), so he's good there. I didn't know about Piranha Strike, so that's nice, too.
I had been trying to convince Trueshots to go Strength-based, via ranger or something, but these make Dex better than I thought. Worth playing when that's your character idea, anyway. Is there anything else that would help?
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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If he wants to focus on crits, he should use double kukri. They are considered light weapons and have a 18-20/x2 critical. This means you only take a -2 when fighting with two weapons, and the critical range will give you the most amount of critical hits.
I know he said swords, but the penalties will be slightly higher and he won't be able to have the same crit range unless he goes with scimitar/kukri.
I hate to rain on your parade but you have a few requests which are to a good degree mutually exclusive.
Particularly:
~Two weapon user
and
~want insane damage like that of whatever God is a higher than the God of Pathfinder!
as well as
~light, med or no armor
and
~want good AC (though a flexible definition of 'good' might permit this, )
especially coupled with the two weapon idea
Two weapon fighting is pretty suboptimal in PF. If you are going to do it, sticking to a single type of weapon is the best way to go.
Dual agile Wakizashi is your best bet. However your damage is going to start pretty slow until you can afford 2 +2 weapons. That's a goodly pile of cash (~17k).
I'm not really sure if fighter or ranger is a better bet. A fighter will do better steady damage, but the ranger will have better saves (getting evasion eventually as well), and gets the two weapons feats without pre-requisites which is nice. Fighter can do it with a dex focused build, and the free weapon finesse is a nice luxury.
Personally I'd say consider two handing a nodachi if you want the godly damage. The damage will be great, and you won't be spending a ton of feats on trying to keep up on damage. Power attack, furious focus, and the staples (weapon focus, weapon specialization) will be plenty good.
Since you mentioned wanting to be crit based, that leans towards fighter. They are the ones who get all the really nasty crit feats. Exhausting critical is well worth the wait, and you will be able to play with it for a few levels since that AP goes all the way to 17th.
yea Wakizashi is the way to go. These are some more ideas, I've been tossing around.
Concerns:
*Going dex based, I'll really need to depend on str for damage because the agile property will take a while to get, and the AP is only to lvl 17 so don't want to play half the ap and being doing very low damage until then.
Pro's:
*I can crit just the same with either focus, weather it's str or dex
Build thoughts:
*Thought about grabbing level of ninja to start to get exotics, skills, 1d6 SA, and poison use. Then taking fighter levels and/or prestige classes that corresponding to 2 weapon fighting.(BTW which P.Classes work well with TWF?)
*I want lots of feats so I can pile on the damage
*Could go Tengu and go all fighter
*This Alt class has been approved too. nitojutsu-sensei
*Im basically willing to do anything as long as when I strike with a waki or Kantana that the mobs pretty much dies instantly...I'm perfectly fine, and probably prefer, being a one trick pony, LOL!
Personally I'd say consider two handing a nodachi if you want the godly damage.
Yea I think this would do more damage tbh, I've already built one for another campaign, so didn't want to do the same. But its upsetting at how much Pathfinder's requires to TWF and how little that is required to use a 2HW. The balance of its way off and the 2HW comes out on top any way you build it, every single time.....
Yea I think this would do more damage tbh, I've already built one for another campaign, so didn't want to do the same. But its upsetting at how much Pathfinder's requires to TWF and how little that is required to use a 2HW. The balance of its way off and the 2HW comes out on top any way you build it, every single time.....
Personally I'd say consider two handing a nodachi if you want the godly damage.
Can't argue with that. Personally I like sword and board builds and Pathfinder really doesn't do much to help those out at all. It seems like the only really viable option (or at least the one they would direct you towards) is two handed.
In my home games I do make furious focus work in all cases, since I see that feat as the most clear indication of favoritism towards the two handed builds.
Though I do have to admit, the stacking against two weapon fighting seems to be a carry over from 3.5 as much as anything. Last time two weapon was good was second edition.
*Thought about grabbing level of ninja to start to get exotics, skills, 1d6 SA, and poison use. Then taking fighter levels and/or prestige classes that corresponding to 2 weapon fighting.(BTW which P.Classes work well with TWF?)
*I want lots of feats so I can pile on the damage
*Could go Tengu and go all fighter
*This Alt class has been approved too. nitojutsu-sensei
*Im basically willing to do anything as long as when I strike with a waki or Kantana that the mobs pretty much dies instantly...I'm perfectly fine, and probably prefer, being a one trick pony, LOL!
I would forget about prestige classes. Pathfinder really seems to have pitched those over the side. I'd take a close look at archetypes. I do tend to be of the opinion that the fighter archetypes suck in general. Fighters have so few class abilities other than feats (which never seem to get traded away) that you are always giving up something good (except bravery which is crap IMO).
If you do fighter, make sure you have to gold for gloves of dueling ASAP, that's pretty much the 'justify a fighter' magic item.
If you are going to take a ninja level, you might as well grab two.That gets you Ki pool and ninja trick as well as a point of BAB.
Fighter(Two-Weapon Warrior) or Ranger with Two-Weapon Fighting Combat Style, if you don't want to be M.A.D., are the best classes I have found.
Piranha Strike from Sargava is nice. As is the Agile Enchantment.
Wakizashi with Improved Critical is brutal. If you want a High Critical on all three you will either be spending Gold or Feats.
It is going to require a lot of Feats. unless you dip Ninja or Samurai.
In which I would recommend Samurai. Probably Sword Saint .
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Fighter(Two-Weapon Warrior) or Ranger with Two-Weapon Fighting Combat Style, if you don't want to be M.A.D., are the best classes I have found.
Piranha Strike from Sargava is nice. As is the Agile Enchantment.
Wakizashi with Improved Critical is brutal. If you want a High Critical on all three you will either be spending Gold or Feats.
It is going to require a lot of Feats. unless you dip Ninja or Samurai.
In which I would recommend Samurai. Probably Sword Saint .
Just going to point out a few things here. TWF Fighter archetype sucks. It doesn't negate the dex requirements, and since you lose out on access to weapon training, weapon master or vanilla fighter is far better.
As mentioned earlier, the OP is tentative about pure dex based because it does fall behind, and he will not pull his own weight those early levels.
Wakizashi is not all that much better than kukri. It has deadly (completely irrelevant) and has all but a die size more. A d4 rolls 2.5 on average. A d6 rolls 3.5 on average. All you're getting is 1 pt of damage more. You are spending 1 feat for 1 pt of damage.
The suggestion of ninja or samurai is baffling. They only give the exotic weapon proficiency. That first fighter level would give a bonus feat, and progress him faster to weapon training. Ninja loses him a BaB. Samurai challenge isn't great until high levels. Sword saint gives a full round action attack that just doesn't add much. Ignore it. Don't dip, and consider the extra fighter level feat as purely EWP. Or, even better, go Half-Elf and trade SF out for EWP. It gives better sight with LLV, and gives more skill bonuses.
Two-Weapon Warrior requires System Mastery.
He is wanting THREE weapons meaning THREE EWP Feats.
I have built a few TWF characters in fact... HERE is a TWW fighter that can be easily modified for this. She is built with a 25 PBS.
Drop INT or CON a bit and viola. You can even decrease STR and pick up Power Attack for Extra Damage.
Don't say something sucks if you don't know what your talking about.
Twin Blades is a better choice if you are switching weapons regularly as just so long as you are attacking with both weapons you get the bonus. This means after Level 9 you should be getting it at all times.
If you swap out her Sword and Shield for say a Double Walking Stick Katana or Twin Katana/Wakazashi you are perfect. And dropping the Shield Feats allows you to do this. You can freely switch around the INT Points to WIS or CHA.
In which I would recommend Samurai. Probably Sword Saint.
Yea this Archetype looks pretty good
TWF Fighter archetype sucks. It doesn't negate the dex requirements, and since you lose out on access to weapon training, weapon master or vanilla fighter is far better.
Yea I agree TWF archetype is horrible, weapon master much better, no clue what Vanilla is. Also I disagree bout the Waki, I can get it free one way or another and it does by your calculation +1 damage more per attack. Remember with the BAB's and TWF feats I'll have 5 attacks at level 15 and a 25% to crit for double damage(or more depending) so that's minimal +5 per attack and 25% of time +10 damage. Not bad for something i can basically get for free.
The suggestion of ninja or samurai is baffling. They only give the exotic weapon proficiency.
our AP is only to lvl 17, so last fighter feat I get is at 16, no real point in taking a 17th level in fighter, ninja gives, 1d6 damage, poison(more damage), basically 9 more skill points than I would have had(at lvl 1), eastern weapon. If I took a 2nd level I could get a trick which is as good as a feat in most cases and a bit of reflex bump, 3 more skills points.
He is wanting THREE weapons meaning THREE EWP Feats.
I think you misunderstood. I basically want to specialize in either a Waki(for dex based) or a Kantana (for Str based), not both of them.
I think for this AP, I would rather be more on the stealthy side. So, I'm leaning towards the Waki spec. I think if I was going Kantana route the Ranger would be better choice not to have to worry bout dex and all. There a lot of cool feats out there, I'm in the process of trying to get a few 3rd party ones approved. Thinking of taking some/all of the following:
piranha attack
double slice
twf
imp twf
greater twf
weapon focus
tw rend
weap spec
greater weap spec
flash attack
toughness
imp init
imp crit
vital strike
imp vital strike
greater vital strike
dev strike
I asked about approval of these:
flash attack
bleeding attack
signature weapon
leaping strike
swordplay
So many feats out there It's hard to figure out everything i need...lol, Thank for responding guys!
I normally have a hard time using all my feats...
And you can be a TWF Fighter while still using STR and it makes you a pretty good Switch Hitter.
If I would have switched the Shield for another Longsword or Even went Twin Bastard Swords/Katana I would be able to take some Archery Feats and have 6 Attacks, and been able to use my Bow to deal with Ranged enemies a bit easier.
And mine didn't even have the Human Feat or Skill Point. I used Dual Talent. Who knows what I might have been able to do with that extra feat causing me trouble by the need to fill it.
Also Vital Strike is sub-optimal for TWF. Unless your GM will allow it you to use Flash Attack with it. Though by R.A.W. it doesn't. It doesn't even Technically work with TWW's 9th level ability.
Flash attack has been approved.
Go to the advice page.
Look at guide to the Guides.
Read both
STR Rangers guide to TWF for fighters and
STR Rangers guide to TWF for Rangers.
Both explain good ways to optimize TWF for those classes.
Basically you need a way to
1. Full attack all the time.
2. Stop enemies moving away from you so you can full attack all the time.
The sample builds easily get 40 to 60 A.C. by 20 depending on what gear your DM allows.E.g. Mithral Breastplate with an armored kilt is +7 medium armor (add Defender of the society trait for +8) before adding any enchantment. This is a great start.
I may be blowing my own horn here but I haven't had anybody tell me my handbooks suck yet.
Can anybody provide an PFSRD link to the wayfinder+ioun stone =mind immunity combo?
EDIT: Found it. The combo does NOT provide immunity. Merely constant protection from evil. Nice but not as good as poster said.
@STR_Ranger: You have the Right to blow your own horn. I don't know of that combo... I really need it though...
Hmm... isn't there a Magic Item that you can take a Standard Action to make a Melee touch attack, a Grapple check, or something that Locks the target to making 5-Foot Steps from you?
If so combine that and the Step Up chain. Boom automatic pain.
Mobile Fighter is an option.
Also Flash Attack still doesn't work with Vital Strike unless your GM is allowing it.
EDIT: What is the Combo because I don't see it.
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Can anybody provide an PFSRD link to the wayfinder+ioun stone =mind immunity combo?
EDIT: Found it. The combo does NOT provide immunity. Merely constant protection from evil. Nice but not as good as poster said.
Uh-oh, here we go again. This has been a topic of constant debate. I am of the opinion that it functions against all types of mental control, not just evil, as are many others, including SKR (yes I know that's not the end all, but still. And no, I don't remember where it was I saw this.)
Clear spindle: Protection from possession and mental control (as protection from evil).
The phrase "as protection from evil" is why people say it only works against evil. However, since "as (insert ability here)" is used in the PFRPG to pull out a specific part constantly, I firmly believe it's merely citing what forms of mental control it's resistant to, not the evil itself. If it were constant Prot evil, it would say so. Also, Pathfinders are a neutral organization. Why would they so blatantly have an anti-evil pro good type thing.
So I can get Mind Effect Immunity against most Mind Effecting Spells for pretty cheap? Sign me up!
I read the guides but they implied that the twf archetype was the end all be all. That's a horrible line. Everything comes way to late and most skills really aren't worth much.
Also I'm not sure how double Slice "sucks" it basically doubles the damage with the offhand weapon. Just seemed like there were a lot of feats missing.
Double Slice is only good on High Strength Builds. Rangers will get more use out of it than a Fighter.
Two-Weapon Warrior is the only Archetype that lets you get 2 One-Handed Weapons without eating a -4 on all Attacks when TWF.
Heck, If you are playing RotRL you get the really Nice Abilities around the time when the AP gets to really be challenging to you. At least IIRC. It has been a while since I got a chance to read through RotRL...
I really need to try and get my hands on the Anniversary Edition...
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Adding +2 damage to your offhand IF it hits is not as good as other things you could do with that feat slot (and that's IF you have 18 Strength).
TWW archetype might not get Weapon Training (though your DM may rule that Gloves of Dueling does indeed effect the TWW's equivalent, as you're still just a Fighter, and it's not particularly going to ruin things) but the ability to get more than one attack as a standard action is GLORIOUS. Well worth what you lose, in my opinion.
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Double slice really doesn't put out adequate damage, and it's not really doubling it either. Say you have an 18 str (generous with an TWF build). That's 2 extra damage on half your hits. Give weapon training, magic enhancements, weapon spec, power attack, and that +2 just doesn't seem like much. It is, however, a prereq for two-weapon rend, which is nice. So i suggest focus on other damage feats first that are better and more consistent, then trade something out for double slice around TWR level.
TWR is pretty nice. If you add to it that a TWW can do that as a Standard Action it boosts the Archetypes effectiveness.
It doesn't activate with Flash Attack. At least not R.A.W.
In relation to Double Slice:
Ranger > Fighter.
+1 The above posters.
Doubleslice does indeed suck.
It adds +1or +2 damage to only your offhand attacks.
Now once you have a means of full attackimg all the time AND a massive strength score it becomes worth it. Get it later when you need it for TWR.
Around 9th level when you get double strike.
@STR_Ranger: You have the Right to blow your own horn.
Thanks man.
I read the guides but they implied that the twf archetype was the end all be all. That's a horrible line. Everything comes way to late and most skills really aren't worth much.
Also I'm not sure how double Slice "sucks" it basically doubles the damage with the offhand weapon. Just seemed like there were a lot of feats missing.
It's not the be all and end all. It's abilities come online earlier than either the dawnflower dervish or the Mobile fighter. Both are great but by the time Rapidstrike comes online for them the TWW has been Double striking for multiple levels.
Double Slice is excellent for a Character with either a Massive Point Buy, Stat Point Placement, or Rolled Ability Score. Where they can get a nice STR, DEX, & Con with enough left over for at least 1 Mental Stat. Or A well built Ranger.
That said going Weapon & Shield Style and looking at the Ranger Combat Style for inspiration you can build a brutal Close Quarters Fighter, probably with the Brawler Archetype, that can weather most attacks.
If you can get Piecemeal Armour Allowed you can build a Sword & Cestus or such Fighter that can get a minimum of +13 from Armour+Shield Bonuses before Magic Enhancements & DEX...
And now I want to build Captain America...
@STR: It is the truth no need to thank me.
TWW is one of those nice AP Archetypes that you get your Abilities around the time you really need them.