It may be a relatively trivial exercise to allow the player to select their targetting mode preference.
Devs might go for this if both methods were easily implemented. If one were really complex, unless they all agreed that it must be that way, it might be a problem. :P
Goblin Squad Member
|
What if, aside from having a very large targeting thing like in TERA (seriously, it's nothing like a shooter) it also highlighted what you currently were aiming at? You'll even have the crosshair/disc/whatever highlight too when you were in range, or just tell you the distance to target.
No one has been asking for a shooter style aiming.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
What if, aside from having a very large targeting thing like in TERA (seriously, it's nothing like a shooter) it also highlighted what you currently were aiming at? You'll even have the crosshair/disc/whatever highlight too when you were in range, or just tell you the distance to target.
No one has been asking for a shooter style aiming.
It isn't first person perspective.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
What if, aside from having a very large targeting thing like in TERA (seriously, it's nothing like a shooter) it also highlighted what you currently were aiming at? You'll even have the crosshair/disc/whatever highlight too when you were in range, or just tell you the distance to target.
No one has been asking for a shooter style aiming.
I haven't played TERA.
In general I think Tab-Targeting is both intuitive and easy to use which is why I favor it.
I have no problem with considering alternate systems as long as they are EASY and INTUITIVE for the user to express thier INTENT to the system.
My preferences are based simply on the goal that challenge in PFO comes from the players decision making skills in selecting effective combat tactics to pursue not his skill at manipulating the interface to enact those tactics. As long as that principle is preserved, I'm fairly agnostic as to the specific interface used.....although I have no physical disabilties either. Would be nice to see PFO accessable to those with some level of physical disability. YMMV.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
It isn't first person perspective.
Neither is TERA, but it seems many people associate "aiming" of any sort to be a player skill twitchy system that requires the player to have the precision aiming skill of a call of duty sniper, when really all it needs is for the player to point at the target with a big circle.
I find it far more convenient than tabbing because I get what I want to target first time, every time, whether I'm always after the same target, or if I keep switching for whatever reason (a more immediate danger, an ambush, target died, target left LOS, but there are other dangers in the room etc etc).
Goblinworks Executive Founder
|
You are jumped by 2 players. You all target each other and use your optimal DPS rotations (the typical 1111111222111111311111112222 spam that exists in every auto-aim/hotbar MMORPG). Who dies first?
I do, because they know the 'optimal DPS rotation' and have developed the trivial counter-tactic, which they can execute as soon as they recognize what I'm doing. Since they always know what my next move will be, they simply respond with the appropriate counter.
Now, if I go one step meta, I know they 'know' what I am going to do, so I know that they will execute the counter to that. If I then execute the counter to that counter, I gain a brief advantage, but now we both know more.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@Decius, I read that, and my only thought was...
Inigo Montoya: You are wonderful.
Man in Black: Thank you; I've worked hard to become so.
Inigo Montoya: I admit it, you are better than I am.
Man in Black: Then why are you smiling?
Inigo Montoya: Because I know something you don't know.
Man in Black: And what is that?
Inigo Montoya: I... am not left-handed.
[Moves his sword to his right hand and gains an advantage]
Man in Black: You are amazing.
Inigo Montoya: I ought to be, after 20 years.
Man in Black: Oh, there's something I ought to tell you.
Inigo Montoya: Tell me.
Man in Black: I'm not left-handed either.
[Moves his sword to his right hand and regains his advantage]
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Taking player skill and twitch out of the equation, you lose a lot of ways to make different abilities have different purposes. You can't have a slow projectile skill that deals a lot of damage, because it simply doesn't matter at what speed projectiles travel. Similarly it doesn't matter how big an AoE is in order to hit a single target. You don't have to consider leaving yourself exposed and unable to dodge because dodging doesn't exist if there's no aiming.
Sounds like Pathfinder to me!
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I haven't played TERA.
In general I think Tab-Targeting is both intuitive and easy to use which is why I favor it.
I have no problem with considering alternate systems as long as they are EASY and INTUITIVE for the user to express thier INTENT to the system.
My preferences are based simply on the goal that challenge in PFO comes from the players decision making skills in selecting effective combat tactics to pursue not his skill at manipulating the interface to enact those tactics. As long as that principle is preserved, I'm fairly agnostic as to the specific interface used.....although I have no physical disabilties either. Would be nice to see PFO accessable to those with some level of physical disability. YMMV.
In my admittedly limited experience with the similar RaiderZ system it was easier and more intuitive. In most games your abilities are slightly transparent or have a tiny icon if you aren't it range to use them on your target. In RaiderZ if you are out of range your aiming icon changes colors.
This system could be used to make an even MORE intuitive system where the player could have the color change depending on distance to target. For instance yellow at their longbow range, orange at alchemist fire range, and red melee range. With the players having control over the ranges and colors used.
To me aiming seems extremely natural, and is incredibly enhancing to the game experience even though you would nearly have try to actually miss your target.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Projectiles should move straight (albeit subject to gravity) so moving targets have to be led, and blows can be dodged or blocked. These things can be mathematically modelled to an extent, or the game can leave it for twitch. The problem with the latter is that there is a portion of the population whose money is equally good as everyone else' who cannot effectively play twitch due to disability.
Or, in my case, abject clumsiness.
Should I simply accept turning ownership of all combat over to thirteen year olds whose reflexes are nine times better than mine?
Why ever should I? I would rather give them the handicap than give them the kingdom.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Latency is also an issue. Then you have to get into prediction systems and those usually end up at least partly clientside which in turn open up all kinds of exploits.
Latency issues are not fixed by tab targeting. As a Mage class (I know there are no classes, but you know what that means for an example) do you tank? Do you sit there when a melee monster strolls up to you? In latency issues thru just hit you from 20 meters away.
When an aoe attack is coming up, do you just stand there and take the hit, or do you try and avoid it? Latency affects you just as much.
As I've said before, I play at 300-400ms latency, being in Australia. I do fine on a TERA style system.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I think the problem here is every time people hear aim they have a knee jerk reaction and think Call of Duty / Counterstrike / Darkfall, then start griping about teenage twitch monsters and lag issues.
What they don't realize is that this is about as logical of a reaction as people who are screaming that PFO will be a WoW clone if tab targeted. A smart target system honestly has more in common with a tab targeted game, than an FPS. People giving these reactions have not bothered to test what is being proposed, and by large are quite frankly misinformed, and ignorant of the subject being argued. A great saying I've heard before is "The only wrong opinion, is an opinion based on misinformation." Some of you are just straight up wrong, and it makes it difficult to hold a productive debate with you.
TL : DR- Don't knock it until you try it.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In a game where there's something actually at stake, say your crafted goods that you spent all day making, do you really want the outcome of a fight to be out of your hands?
You make it sound like it isn't out of your hands anyway. Frankly, I'd rather lose to a guy who's build a better character than me, than to a guy who's out of a job so he can practice for 10 hours a day more than I can.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@Trikk- You are misunderstanding me. I'm basically asking people to go try a game with a smart target system before they rank on it. They can go do that right now. RaiderZ is free and the original Mass Effect is cheap as hell. Don't even have to try it for long, just long enough for the concept to sink in that having to aim =/= twitch based in every time.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
...
With auto-aim there is no leading of targets or dodging incoming projectiles. If the projectile was fired at you, no matter how much you move you will get hit. It cannot be done a different way - because you have no control over the aim then every single attack would miss if there was an actual projectile that had to hit rather than a simple mathematical equation.
...
Sorry, but false.
If you propose to use formulae rather than tracking the trajectory of every projectile fired, those formulae can just as easily factor my dodge skill compared with your accuracy skill and still come up with a believable result. Those formulae can easily factor the resistence to penetration my armor affords. Those formulae can easily factor the likelyhood that my shield will block your blow.
The question should be, presuming the above, whether the game will only factor those possible counteractions if I attempt them. If to dodge I am to double-tap my F key then if I do so timely it can calculate the odds of success or failure. Armore resistance would be involuntary and not subject to my action. If my dodge 'dice check' is successful I might trigger the animation of dodging and the projectile missing, but if not it doesn't.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In fact, anything that makes it EASIER for the player to relay his INTENT is desirable (IMO).The easier it is to translate your intent into character actions and thus results, the less you as a player matter. Anyone can go buy an account on Ebay and attach a bot to it that does what you want it to do. Take it to the extreme and you just have a prompt that says "KILL: <insert name here>".
Maybe a PFO should just be a MUD?
No, the more your DECISION MAKING skills come into play rather then your NINTENDO skills.
Chess is a game where it is very easy for the player to move his pieces... care to try to argue that is not a game about player skill?
Edit: I WANT a deep and engaging combat system.
Do I advance across the swamp and risk getting mired to engage you in melee or pull out a bow to return fire? Do I pull back to higher ground where I have an advantage and risk getting nailed in the back? Do I fight defensively while waiting for an ally to turn your flank? Do I try to break through your line to get to your healers and risk the AoO's?
These are the things that START to make a deep and engaging combat system, not whether I can click on the screen faster and with more accuracy then you. Tab-targeting is merely a GUI method...has nothing to do with the combat system. Most MMO's (Tab-Target or not) have simplistic, boring combat systems because they've chosen to have simplistic boring combat systems...that has nothing to do with what sort of GUI they are using for target selection.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
On the RaiderZ targeting system:
To me this seemed to be pretty much a standard twitch-based crosshair targeting with the exception that the crosshair is permanently fixed to the center of your screen. So instead of moving the crosshair you need to rotate your facing (both vertically and horizontally) in order to get the crosshair within your target's hitbox.
The larger the hitbox, the closer you are to your opponent, the less mobile your opponent is and the less you need to move yourself, the easier it obviously is to hit with a system like this (and vice versa). If there was anything more to the RaiderZ targeting system I totally missed it.
As Micco, Randomwalker and many others have pointed out, most if not all of the issues attributed in this thread to tab-targeting (except the twitch skill aspect) are actually caused by design decisions which have nothing to do with whether you can select (and lock, which by the way even RaiderZ allowed) your (primary offensive/defensive) target with pressing a key instead of using your mouse (or the Schwarz or whatever alternative means there may be).
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
On the RaiderZ targeting system:
To me this seemed to be pretty much a standard twitch-based crosshair targeting with the exception that the crosshair is permanently fixed to the center of your screen. So instead of moving the crosshair you need to rotate your facing (both vertically and horizontally) in order to get the crosshair within your target's hitbox.
The larger the hitbox, the closer you are to your opponent, the less mobile your opponent is and the less you need to move yourself, the easier it obviously is to hit with a system like this (and vice versa). If there was anything more to the RaiderZ targeting system I totally missed it.
As Micco, Randomwalker and many others have pointed out, most if not all of the issues attributed in this thread to tab-targeting (except the twitch skill aspect) are actually caused by design decisions which have nothing to do with whether you can select (and lock, which by the way even RaiderZ allowed) your (primary offensive/defensive) target with pressing a key instead of using your mouse (or the Schwarz or whatever alternative means there may be).
The twitch is more in the dodging part of that system, which is perhaps not as smooth or easy as it should be, but I've only mentioned that briefly. You must still face your target in a tab targeting system.
I did not see any hard lock ons in raiderZ, you hit what you were aiming at.I really don't think it's twitchy. Is twitch not rapidly responding to things? Is that not how cool down systems work? The person who can hit their attacks not on cool down fastest does the better damage. How is that any less twitchy than doing an identical thing where your pointing at the target with a great big circle?
|
Goblinworks Executive Founder
|
I do, because they know the 'optimal DPS rotation' and have developed the trivial counter-tactic, which they can execute as soon as they recognize what I'm doing. Since they always know what my next move will be, they simply respond with the appropriate counter.
Now, if I go one step meta, I know they 'know' what I am going to do, so I know that they will execute the counter to that. If I then execute the counter to that counter, I gain a brief advantage, but now we both know more.
If there are different abilities that do different things and they cannot all be used at once then there is an optimal order to use them for maximum damage output. It's been true for every auto-aim MMORPG so far that I've played. It takes a trivial amount of time for people to figure out the best rotation and anyone who wants to be competitive will use the same rotation for the same type of character.
Taking player skill and twitch out of the equation, you lose a lot of ways to make different abilities have different purposes. You can't have a slow projectile skill that deals a lot of damage, because it simply doesn't matter at what speed projectiles travel. Similarly it doesn't matter how big an AoE is in order to hit a single target. You don't have to consider leaving yourself exposed and unable to dodge because dodging doesn't exist if there's no aiming.
Are you assuming that there is nothing that can be done to mitigate an attack when you know exactly what is coming?
|
Goblinworks Executive Founder
|
Try out the DCUO system for ranged combat; you can use a very generous autoaim, or you can lock onto one target. The input is a little twitchy, but not so much that it's hard to execute it perfectly. It also allows the opponent to counter everything you can do-lunge beats ranged, block beats lunge, ranged beats block.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Try out the DCUO system for ranged combat; you can use a very generous autoaim, or you can lock onto one target. The input is a little twitchy, but not so much that it's hard to execute it perfectly. It also allows the opponent to counter everything you can do-lunge beats ranged, block beats lunge, ranged beats block.
I havnt tried dcuo, not a fan of dc universe, but I might look at the combat system. It sounds pretty good.
I think it's strange to complain about combat being twitchy... Combat *is* a bit twitchy, you have to respond rapidly to some sort of attack or something, and a combat system has to reflect that. If you don't do it turn based, it's bound to be a bit twitchy.|
Goblin Squad Member
|
No, what he said was that every six seconds your stamina pool would refresh. At no point in time has anyone at GW said anything about it being turn based. Quite the opposite, that would be impossible in an MMO without instancing the combat. I'm sure someone quicker than I can find the links.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I've read it and Dario is correct. Apparently we start with a pool of stamina which refills at a certain rate. Optimal combat would involve using that pool evenly by timing our blocks, parries, and attacks. Someone who spams attacks will be frequently have stamina left over when it refreshes (evidently attacks have a cool down), thus wasting what could have been damage output.
Do the devs told about this subject since months ?
in my experience, i really liked aiming when i was in ranged combat (more excitting than just auto targeting and activate skills
in close combat, staying around and close to the target is enough
Does aiming is actually possible with the combat system developped in the secret ??? :)
i suppose aiming is not compatible with roll dice system they use and stamina regeneration.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Last I heard no manual aiming was going to be included, not even ground targeting for area-of-effect spells.Wait, what? Where was that said?
We are looking at... tab targeting being the primary targeting method...
[Edit] Or were you more interested in the ground targeting aspect? I don't recall a statement on that.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Yeah... Ground targeted AoEs is kind of a standard. Removing that seriously nerfs the effectiveness of AoEs as it's quicker to throw one down in the area you want then pinpoint the character closest to the center of that area. If there even is a character centered there.
I imagine in pfo, aoe's will be more of a niche, than a wizards bread and butter as they are in standard MMORPGs. Based on friendly fire rules etc... I see them being used mainly for the initial attack before the mellees lock into eachother, after that, unless say you've stacked your whole party in favor of it (IE heavy fire resist gear and going to plummet your allies with fireballs etc...) Unless you have a scenerio in which you're ally's are immune, I don't see a whole lot of practicality in them, regardless of character or ground targeting. (with latency + cast time, the old fashioned P&P line up the aoe behind the enemy so that it stops between the enemy and the guy he's locked into combat with 5' away ain't happening no matter what, either your information is going to be lagged just enough so that you'll be a few feet off, or they will move while you are performing the action etc...
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I actually find the targeting system in Darkfall pretty good. I am lousy at aiming at a ranged target, but it certainly seems more realistic than any type of sticky targeting. It also gives a greater allowance for friendly fire and area of effect targeting concerns.
I know it's an industry standard, and many consider actual targeting a "twitch mechanic". But it doesn't feel like a problem between me and the UI. It is a problem between me and my target, as a very active target is tough to hit (where the argument against twitch comes from).
Tab and sticky targeting make me feel like I am playing a game, where area targeting is more like you are living the game. It is far more realistic.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I ultimately would like a system that gives the feel of manual aim but heavily assists it. Darkfall and Mortal feel immersive right up until you start struggling with lag and clunky controls. Then they just feel frustrating.
A full tab target system is just handing victory to whoever has the most players / best gear / highest stats on a silver platter though.
I've taken on 5 equally equipped players at once and won in a manual aim game. Those things simply cannot happen in tab target games like WoW which is why PVP primarily happens in arenas of equal numbers vs. equal numbers.
I'd really like to see a compromise between the two. An aiming system like Terra or Mass Effect that requires a lot more than clicking on the target in your raid assist window but allows you to focus on tactics and ability selection far more than a game where the main struggle is getting your crosshairs on the opponent.
To me Mass Effect style aiming with Original Guild Wars style abilities and ability selection would be the Holy Grail of combat systems.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Tab and sticky targeting make me feel like I am playing a game, where area targeting is more like you are living the game. It is far more realistic.
I have the exact opposite feeling. Manual Aim feels very "gamey" to me.
Ultimately, though, I think it's going to matter a lot less in PFO than in other games. In PFO, you probably won't be running and jumping around a lot, so having better twitch skills won't help you as much.
I have no objection whatsoever to requiring the player to keep his target reasonably within a reasonable hit box, or having the target drop. And I have no objection to - and would actually very much like to see - reasonable line-of-sight checks that make it harder to hit the Wizard behind the Fighter.
Tab and sticky targeting make me feel like I am playing a game, where area targeting is more like you are living the game. It is far more realistic.I have the exact opposite feeling. Manual Aim feels very "gamey" to me.
Ultimately, though, I think it's going to matter a lot less in PFO than in other games. In PFO, you probably won't be running and jumping around a lot, so having better twitch skills won't help you as much.
Just have to make jumping and running 10 x more expensive in stamina points than just parry or using other combat technics : the guy who is jumping will be quickly exhausted and received a malus to all the action he 'll try until he recovers a good stamina pool. It is too difficult ?
I'm agree with Andius and Hardin, I like realism, if that don't make the game borring. I like loosing my loot when dead, if that don't push everybody to became PKers...
I want balanced realism even it's more complex, more difficult to make such a game , but It's not themepark game, it's the price.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Lee Hammock mentioned he's an avid archer, so maybe he'll give it some thought concerning how long to pull-back the string, how to elevate the bow to compensate for the arrow dipping and what the target is doing/where it is - increase the hit factor - which may or may not be fully tab-targetted, perhaps how narrow the cone of focus the archer is concentrating on making etc ???
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Lee Hammock mentioned he's an avid archer, so maybe he'll give it some thought concerning how long to pull-back the string, how to elevate the bow to compensate for the arrow dipping and what the target is doing/where it is - increase the hit factor - which may or may not be fully tab-targetted, perhaps how narrow the cone of focus the archer is concentrating on making etc ???
Please, no. If my character is a trained Ranger with +20 bows among his skills, he shouldn't fight like the Couch Potato with -6 bows who is looking over his shoulder.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I'd like to see the game give increased range when you are firing from the high ground. But I think that's about as close to Darkfall's archery system as most people playing this game will enjoy.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Oh I'm only saying I'm open to different ideas to capture an enjoyable experience. From all the devs have suggested I'm not expecting anything other than a tab-target / click hot-bar / roll dice limited interaction. But if any of the above "sim" ideas can be transformed into game decisions for range - then it makes an improvement on that basic system. Eg timer vs power generated to sim pull-back skill-train, angle of elevation perhaps skill-train range etc.
How to tinker with that basic format is worth querying.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Oops had to dash and cycle to the beach while sun is out: Above should read:"game decisions for archery"
I mean most ranged dps mmorpg tab-target be it bow/gun/magic is the same feeling/choices bar variation in rolling the dice that I've seen. If there is a certain logic to archery that has to be learnt as well as the output damage result of biggest numbers - I'd be happy to see it.
Eg long-bows in 100 Years War were more sheer numbers and frequency in a killing ground zone targeted than any Robin Hood. Though fantasy should have Elves who can choose "long-range" chance to hit (as opposed to kill which is due to mmorpg combat being stretched out), instead of the usual ranged limit 50m perhaps angling their bow pulling back for longer (charging up?) and plinking 100m. What about some UI info tells the player some range/cover info about targets? And/or elevation increasing range. Certainly long-bows were stationary weapons requiring concentration to achieve accuracy eg Seven Samurai is great scene.
I did some archery as a kid, remember plinking an arrow straight through a hay bail out the other side! Lesson learnt hard vs soft cover.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Regarding tab targeting, I had a half-formed idea which I wanted to throw out to let others consider...
A character's ability to choose/acquire targets might depend on how close the target was, how big it was, local cover, and related types of things. It would also depend on the characters skills, maybe stats, and maybe racial bonuses. So this might sort of be related to TT initiative. Together these could affect how fast a player could cycle through possible targets with the tab-targeting. (Reverting back to the close default target should be fast).