Wildblooded Sorcs Rules


Rules Questions


Does a sorcerer have to use all of the wildblooded changes, or can he pick and choose? I am interested in going with the wildblooded sage archtype which allows you to use Int instead of Cha for all class abilities, this replaces the plus 1 to DC when using metamagic. The problem is sage replaces the familiar with a lame arcane bolt. I want to keep the familiar. Anything official on this? I don't think the DM would take issue with this, but I wouldn't mind something to back up the idea.


You take the entire archetype or you take none of it. Everyone would like to keep the familiar, but that's the real price you pay for using Int instead of Cha.


I can assure you that, if played correctly, that "lame arcane bolt" is quite good. You just haven't seen the combo yet. It's much more situational than the familiar, but having everyone in your party purchase a Ring of Force Fangs and charging them with your "lame arcane bolt" that changes effective spell level as you level up can mean a murder round at mid-levels as everyone shoots 5 MMs at a target.


Serisan wrote:
I can assure you that, if played correctly, that "lame arcane bolt" is quite good. You just haven't seen the combo yet. It's much more situational than the familiar, but having everyone in your party purchase a Ring of Force Fangs and charging them with your "lame arcane bolt" that changes effective spell level as you level up can mean a murder round at mid-levels as everyone shoots 5 MMs at a target.

5d4+5 averages 17.5 damage. If a 10th level character can't deal 17.5 damage in a round, I think your group is screwed.

Hell, if your 6th level character (the first time that the 8k ring is within the WBL budget to buy) can't deal 17.5 damage per round, you're probably in trouble.

Webstore Gninja Minion

Moved thread.


Can you go Sage then use eldritch heritage into arcane? I think you could gain a familar that way if you really want to.


Eldritch Heritage says you can't use it to pick up a bloodline you already have, so I assume not. There's a snake-based bloodline that offers a familiar down the way, though.


Right, but is sage and arcane the same bloodline. I'm inclined to say they aren't but I don't know about RAW for sure.


Hawktitan wrote:
Right, but is sage and arcane the same bloodline. I'm inclined to say they aren't but I don't know about RAW for sure.

Yes, they are the same bloodline. Sage alters the Arcane bloodline in the same manner that Tattooed Sorcerer alters the Sorcerer.


but yes there is the snake-ish bloodline that gives a familiar as the level 3 power, so it would take 3 feats just to get one.


Wildblooded:
A wildblooded sorcerer has a mutated version of a more common bloodline, with one arcana and at least one bloodline power that are different from those of an unmutated bloodline. When creating a wildblooded sorcerer, select an existing bloodline, then select one of the following mutated bloodlines associated with that bloodline. Use the normal bloodline’s class skill, bonus spells, and bonus feats, and the mutated bloodline’s bloodline arcana. Use the normal bloodline’s bloodline powers, except when the mutated bloodline replaces one of those powers.

Personally I disagree with mplindustries, but it doesn't seem explicitly clear either way. They refer both to "a mutated version of a more common bloodline" and "mutated bloodline" (differentiated from "existing/normal bloodline").

You can read it as being a completely different bloodline that is just built up from an existing bloodline, or as just being the same bloodline with a couple changes. I think it's just up to your DM, I don't see how any other sorcerer or character period can use eldritch heritage to get a familiar but a Sage sorcerer using it would somehow be overpowered or particularly problematic. The only potential issue would be if you planned on taking Improved and Greater Eldritch heritage (which would still overlap).

The "Tattooed Sorcerer" archetype also grants a familiar with some bonus abilities, but that seems even less RAW. Personally I think Wildblooded bloodlines should be treated the same way Subdomains are treated compared to Domains, which would allow you to use them with any other archetype, but that's definitely not RAW and probably not RAI.


Serpentine Bloodline Familiar:
Serpentfriend (Ex): At 3rd level, you can use speak with animals at will with reptilian animals (including various forms of dinosaurs, lizards, and other cold-blooded creatures), and you gain a viper familiar using your sorcerer level –2 as your effective wizard level.

As for using Improved Eldritch Heritage to get the serpentine familiar, your familiar would have to be a viper, it would be working at -4 effective level, and you wouldn't be able to get it until level 11.

Depending on how soon you need to make this character, this might have some things available to make this easier for you, but it won't be out until late February: Pathfinder Player Companion: Animal Archive.


If we accept the premise that Wildblooded are archetypes, one can't combine Sage and Tattooed Sorcerers, as they both modify the same features.
A very specific example, and potentially frustrating, I'm sure.


one thing to note about using the serpentine bloodline to replace your familiar, is that you can still take improved familiar and replace the serpent with whichever improved familiar is available to you. boon companion would make up the 4 level loss from doing it.

so you could get your familiar back in a new better form, at the low low cost, of 5 feats :)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
theishi wrote:
Does a sorcerer have to use all of the wildblooded changes, or can he pick and choose? I am interested in going with the wildblooded sage archtype which allows you to use Int instead of Cha for all class abilities, this replaces the plus 1 to DC when using metamagic. The problem is sage replaces the familiar with a lame arcane bolt. I want to keep the familiar. Anything official on this? I don't think the DM would take issue with this, but I wouldn't mind something to back up the idea.

Archetypes are strictly all or nothing deals, you want one part of the package, you have to take it all. Just look up the base rule on archetypes. If your DM wants to handle it differently that's his lookout. If you're looking for official "backup", it doesn't exist.


Sodapop wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

As for using Improved Eldritch Heritage to get the serpentine familiar, your familiar would have to be a viper, it would be working at -4 effective level, and you wouldn't be able to get it until level 11.

Depending on how soon you need to make this character, this might have some things available to make this easier for you, but it won't be out until late February: Pathfinder Player Companion: Animal Archive.

I need him in a week and a half. If I am going with Improved Eldritch, I see no reason why I couldn't select the Arcane Bloodtype. Too bad the book won't be ready yet, that seems to be a useful one for my character.


LazarX wrote:
theishi wrote:
Does a sorcerer have to use all of the wildblooded changes, or can he pick and choose? I am interested in going with the wildblooded sage archtype which allows you to use Int instead of Cha for all class abilities, this replaces the plus 1 to DC when using metamagic. The problem is sage replaces the familiar with a lame arcane bolt. I want to keep the familiar. Anything official on this? I don't think the DM would take issue with this, but I wouldn't mind something to back up the idea.
Archetypes are strictly all or nothing deals, you want one part of the package, you have to take it all. Just look up the base rule on archetypes. If your DM wants to handle it differently that's his lookout. If you're looking for official "backup", it doesn't exist.

This all or nothing nonsense is really annoying. The racial alternate abilities is really cool as there are often things you don't want, like, or need. Every archtype makes assumptions on what your character is going to do and crams choices down your throat. I understand the fear of balancing issues, but really these should be separated smaller packages.

I do not like the Arcane bloodlines 'Bloodline Arcana'. I don't want to use metamagic feats, and seems so wasteful to gain an ability that I will never use. I would be happy if I could switch it out for even something as minor as a plus one to a single skill I use, just as long as it is something that I will use.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The problem with the pick and choose option is that archetypes come with deficits as well as bonuses, and if you allowed that, you'd get players who'd just pick the bonuses.


If you are prioritizing getting a familiar and not interested in being INT-based except avoiding the Arcane arcana you don't really like, then just sucking up the arcana is probably the easiest solution.

If you really want to be an INT-based caster and to have a familiar, then you are probably best off just playing a Wizard or a Witch, if you don't mind being a prepared caster instead.

The Sylvan wildblooded bloodline grants an Animal Companion, if you want a animal friend and don't care so much about what rules govern its abilities.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Wildblooded bloodlines are archetypes of existing bloodlines. They still count as the original bloodline, the same way Bladebound still count as Magus' and Ninja still count as Rogues. You can't take Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) when you already have the Sage Bloodline, since it's just an adjusted version of the Arcane Bloodline.


Sodapop wrote:

If you are prioritizing getting a familiar and not interested in being INT-based except avoiding the Arcane arcana you don't really like, then just sucking up the arcana is probably the easiest solution.

If you really want to be an INT-based caster and to have a familiar, then you are probably best off just playing a Wizard or a Witch, if you don't mind being a prepared caster instead.

The Sylvan wildblooded bloodline grants an Animal Companion, if you want a animal friend and don't care so much about what rules govern its abilities.

I am picking Fey for the +2 compulsion. That is just as important to the character as the companion. I am considering picking up E Heritage for a companion or going the Tattooed route.


LazarX wrote:
The problem with the pick and choose option is that archetypes come with deficits as well as bonuses, and if you allowed that, you'd get players who'd just pick the bonuses.

I don't mind being forced to take the deficits, but that really isn't an issue. Most deficits are built into the bonus. Usually the bonuses replace something. I doubt the arcane bolt was designed to be a deficit, they probably thought it was a bonus. Looking at the tatooed Sorc, I don't see any deficits, all I see stuff that I like less then what it replaces.


well, the rules are rock solid that you can't pick and choose abilities from archetypes, you choose the archetype period.
archetype abilities are not balanced on how good each ability is by itself, or on what is specifically replaced by that ability, but on what is gained/given up by the archetype as a whole. for example: the weapon master fighter archetype gains weapon training early at 3rd level (replacing armor training). if you can pick and choose, then you can gain that, and then proceed to gain weapon training again at 4th level, and gain double the bonus of weapon training over your career. that's why the rules are the way they are.

incidentally, tattooed sorceror's 'create spell tattoo' replaces the 7th level bloodline FEAT, not a power.
it's later ability, 'enhanced varisian tattoo', replaces the 9th level bloodline POWER.
'create spell tattoo' is quite a bit more powerful than 1 bloodline feat (even more so as the ability, and your spell levels scale), and 'enhanced varisian tattoo' is probably weaker than pretty much every 9th level bloodline power. tons of archetypes are similarly built, not balanced on 1:1 replacements inserted at the same character level, but balanced on the overall picture. ...that's why the rules are the way they are, and you can't pick and choose archetype abilities. that's also why the rules for combining archetypes are the way they are, which wouldn't make sense if you could just pick and choose abilities, which would let you pick and choose abilities to combine between multiple archetypes - but that's not allowed.


This is some serious thread necromancy, but in case it comes up on Google or something, things have changed a little.

Off the top of my head, the Ley Line Guardian witch ( http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch/archetypes/paizo---witch -archetypes/ley-line-guardian-witch-archetype ) is an alternative int-based spontaneous caster. While the spell list isn't as impressive as a sorcerer/wizard's, it might well suffice, and in a non-PFS game you might be able to play a samsaran with Mystic Past Life to get the wizard spells the witch is most desirous of outside Shadow or similar patrons.

Naturally, since the Ley Line Guardian loses the familiar class feature, one still must consider what feat chain to use to get a familiar, but it does open up the Arcane Eldritch Heritage feat, at the usual cost of a knowledge skill focus* and some investment in charisma.

* Dammit, half-elf, go away, we need those wizard spells!

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