Can an earth elemental carry someone underground?

[Tiny Coffee Golem]

james maissen wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

What about people in objects (such as a chest, sack, or bag of holding)? ;D

No. :P

Just no.

Kill 'em, move 'em, then raise 'em. Live with it (even if they don't fully...)

-James

So your word is law? interesting. Anyway, moving on.

[Tiny Coffee Golem]

So we seem to be in "DM Discretion" territory, yet again. I guess I'll either wait for something official or just ask my DM.

[james maissen]

Ravingdork wrote:

Why not? I'm pretty sure I can stick someone in my bag of holding then teleport us both. What's so different here?

Without having them count towards the maximum number of people that you can teleport? No. Just as you'd have to pay for both rider and mount if you were teleporting both of them.

-James

[james maissen]

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

james maissen wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

What about people in objects (such as a chest, sack, or bag of holding)? ;D

No. :P

Just no.

Kill 'em, move 'em, then raise 'em. Live with it (even if they don't fully...)

-James

So your word is law? interesting. Anyway, moving on.

When players want to mess with the game, the best answer is a simple no.

And that's all we're seeing here.

If a ghost TKs you into a wall, you slam into the wall.. you don't go through it and get trapped in stone. You shouldn't need to have a dev tell you that.

Have fun,

James

[Troubleshooter]

Is there really a rule preventing you from teleporting more creatures than your caster level allows by putting them into a bag of holding? Or just DM arbitration?

[Ravingdork]

james maissen wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

Why not? I'm pretty sure I can stick someone in my bag of holding then teleport us both. What's so different here?

Without having them count towards the maximum number of people that you can teleport? No. Just as you'd have to pay for both rider and mount if you were teleporting both of them.

-James

Well I happen to disagree. I think it would work as described. Furthermore, I might congratulate a player on his creative thinking should he come up with the idea on his own.

Troubleshooter: James has no evidence supporting his belief that the trick wouldn't work. I don't have any evidence backing my stance up either, really. It's what people often refer to as a "gray area." It's likely best left to individual GM arbitration in the end.

[james maissen]

Troubleshooter wrote:

Is there really a rule preventing you from teleporting more creatures than your caster level allows by putting them into a bag of holding? Or just DM arbitration?

You mean beyond the teleport spell?

Quote:

You can bring along objects as long as their weight doesn't exceed your maximum load. You may also bring one additional willing Medium or smaller creature (carrying gear or objects up to its maximum load) or its equivalent per three caster levels. A Large creature counts as two Medium creatures, a Huge creature counts as four Medium creatures, and so forth. All creatures to be transported must be in contact with one another, and at least one of those creatures must be in contact with you.

I think it clearly says so there. Black and white, but not grey unless you are trying to purposefully blur the lines.

Where do you disagree?

-James

[Troubleshooter]

James, I can't help but suspect that if you make a habit of declaring that anybody disagreeing with you is trying to be obtuse before they have even taken a position, you may find people become more ornery and defensive of their positions than if you hadn't said anything at all.

For the purpose of clarifying your interpretation:

If a halfling Wizard is carrying less than his maximum load of 100 pounds, but that weight includes his a Bag of Holding I (itself weighing 15 pounds) and it contains 240 pounds of equipment, is the halfling able or unable to cast teleport?

[The ShadowShackleton]

So you have to pay to bring your toad familiar with you as well, James?

[Diego Rossi]

The ShadowShackleton wrote:

So you have to pay to bring your toad familiar with you as well, James?

You have to pay to bring your toad familiar.

You don't have to pay to bring stuff or people stashed in a extradimensional container, turned into cloth with the Item spell, stored in a gauntlet of storing and so on.

[SurplusRaine]

Wait. A bit of a non-sequitur, but... People actually think that Earth Glide displaces the area around an elemental while it's moving through it?

That doesn't make sense simply by the fact that they can glide through solid stone and leave it intact. I always thought it was clear that they could exist simultaneously in the same spot as any earth or stone without physically interacting with it. They don't move the earth at all when passing through it, as evidenced by the fact that they "Don't create any ripples or any sign of its presence." They just glide through it.

Because of this, I'd say that an elemental would NOT be able to bring a creature underground with Earth Glide as there's no entry point (I'm envisioning the victim being whacked against the ground repeatedly by stony arms as it tries to pull them under), but they could most certainly grapple and bring them using conventional burrowing.

So the answer is yes and no. Yes, they can bring passengers behind them while burrowing (As any burrowers that leave a tunnel can). But no, they can't do it with Earth Glide.

[Diego Rossi]

SurplusRaine you raise a very good point.

PRD wrote:

Earth Glide (Su): You can pass through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except worked stone and metal as easily as a fish swims through water. If protected against fire damage, you can even glide through lava. You glide at your base land speed. While gliding, you breathe stone as if it were air (you do not need to hold your breath). Your burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or sign of your presence. A move earth spell cast on an area where you are flings you back 30 feet, stunning you for 1 round unless you succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save. Activating this ability is a free action. You can glide for 1 minute per day per oracle level. This duration does not need to be consecutive, but it must be spent in 1-minute increments. You must be at least 7th level to select this revelation. You can bring other creatures with you when you glide, but each passenger costs an additional minute per minute of travel.

PRD wrote:

Earth Glide (Ex) When the creature burrows, it can pass through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water. If protected against fire damage, it can even glide through lava. Its burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or other sign of its presence. A move earth spell cast on an area containing the burrowing creature flings it back 30 feet, stunning it for 1 round unless it succeeds on a DC 15 Fortitude save.

Format: earth glide; Location: Speed.

So: Earth Glide (SU) allow you to move at your land speed, Earth Glide (Ex) use your burrowing speed.

I recall a piece of text saying that a creature with burrowing speed would tunnel through earth, dirt and co. but that he will not leave a tunnel behind him because he is displacing the material in his location there while he advance and that the tunnel is not shored or reinforced, so it will collapse immediately.

Sadly I can't find that clarification in the PRD.

A earth elemental has Burrowing, Earth Glide (Ex), not Su, so he is physically moving the terrain and leaving a filled tunnel in his wake, he is not flowing through the terrain without leaving a trace.

That force me to change my position.

So:
- if an earth elemental has the appendages to both grapple his target and burrow through the terrain he can bring a creature with him (as the earth elementals can have different shapes some, but not all, of them can do that);
- a creature using Earth Glide (SU) move without displacing the terrain and can't share his ability with another creature, so he can't bring a grappled target with him.

A Earth elemental using his burrowing speed to move through the earth change the risk of dying thanks to this maneuver.
Flowing through the terrain with the SU ability will not leave a entry point or lose dirt and gravel in your wake, so finding the earth gliding creature is very difficult.
A burrowing creature would leave a tunnel filled with gravel and dirt, relatively easy to excavate and easy to follow, so there will be a chance to free the person buried alive in time.

Edit: found that description, it is from the 3.X editions

D20PSFRD wrote:

*Burrow (Ex)

A creature with a burrow speed can tunnel through dirt, but not through rock unless the descriptive text says otherwise. Creatures cannot charge or run while burrowing. Most burrowing creatures do not leave behind tunnels other creatures can use (either because the material they tunnel through fills in behind them or because they do not actually dislocate any material when burrowing); see the individual creature descriptions for details.

Format: Burrow 30 ft.; Location: Speed.

*Note: Burrow details were not included in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook so the details were obtained from d20srd.org.

[SurplusRaine]

Diego Rossi wrote:

A earth elemental has Burrowing, Earth Glide (Ex), not Su, so he is physically moving the terrain and leaving a filled tunnel in his wake, he is not flowing through the terrain without leaving a trace.

That's easy enough to say, but even as an Ex ability, the elemental still leaves no trace of its passage whatsoever. That would imply that when it passes through the material, it leaves it exactly how it was before. I think this is really a just case of wording that needs to be cleaned up.

Diego Rossi wrote:

I recall a piece of text saying that a creature with burrowing speed would tunnel through earth, dirt and co. but that he will not leave a tunnel behind him because he is displacing the material in his location there while he advance and that the tunnel is not shored or reinforced, so it will collapse immediately.

The rules for burrowing were actually forgotten when compiling the Pathfinder Core Rulebook, but it can be assumed that it works the same way as 3.5e. ie, on a case-by-case basis specific to each creature. The ambiguity in the rules here means that most of it's up to DM discretion. Edit: Ninja'd

But like I've said earlier, the evidence logically points to the elemental simply passing through earth. There's no other way it can go through things like stone walls without leaving any signs of passage.

The fact that it's an extraordinary ability is just a design attribute to ensure that they don't get stuck in the rock when you cast antimagic field (or similar). It doesn't imply that the creature actually moves the earth (As Extraordinary abilities don't have to be grounded in reality, as can be seen in things like incorporeality, natural invisibility and heat/burn). It's best not to take Ex, Su and Sp as literal reflections of a power or ability's origin (ie, magical and non), but rather as a gameplay mechanic, so it's safe to say that even as an Ex ability, the elemental would still just 'phase' through the earth, so to speak.

[Diego Rossi]

SurplusRaine wrote:

Diego Rossi wrote:

A earth elemental has Burrowing, Earth Glide (Ex), not Su, so he is physically moving the terrain and leaving a filled tunnel in his wake, he is not flowing through the terrain without leaving a trace.

That's easy enough to say, but even as an Ex ability, the elemental still leaves no trace of its passage whatsoever. That would imply that when it passes through the material, it leaves it exactly how it was before. I think this is really a just case of wording that needs to be cleaned up.

Quote:

Its burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or other sign of its presence.

That piece of text can be read in two ways: as you read it (and as I did too, before noticing the EX/SU difference) and as "the creature underground movement don't leave a tunnel or a hole as it is filled by the material it is excavating, not does it create any ripple or other sign of its presence on the surface".

Think about the difference between a bullette tunnel and a purple worm tunnel.
It is possible to locate the bullette tunnel as it tunneling just beneath the surface, often breaking it with his fin. It is more plowing the earth from underground than tunneling.
A purple worm instead work like a worn, tunneling ad a good depth under the earth. You can easily see the entry point of a worm tunnel but you can't follow it looking for telltale signs on the surface.

I have always envisioned the earth elementals as flowing through the earth without need to excavate it, but the current description of the ability don't support that interpretation.

[Tiny Coffee Golem]

So if the elemental "phases" through earth it can or can't bring gear with it?

If it can't bring gear that supports not being able to carry something (like a halfling) through.

If it can bring gear that supports being able to carry something through, including a halfling, though perhaps the halfling will need to be in side a portable hole or trunk or what not.

[Tangrid]

Oh, so many points to make.

First, I realize this thread is a little old, but while looking for people who actually cite authority (thanks by the way), I found some ridiculous arguments.

As for the distinction between a carried inanimate object (which acts as part of your person for most purposes) and a carried animate object (grappling or mounts), I don't see how people can be so confused. The rules are very different for attended objects and carrying/grappling living things. The one "gray area" regarding portable holes and bags of holding is actually a red herring. You can put people/things in a bag of holding (which acts as a portal to an extradimensional space), and then carry the bag of holding (an inanimate object without any living thing inside of it unless a body part's poking through) via Earth Glide as an object. This is not the same as putting a halfling in a chest, because he'd still physically be in the chest.

With regard to how Earth Glide works, it's really quite clear from the ability description. While the DM can always opt to override the rules (at his/her peril), the fact that it leaves no trace of passage and is undetectable means that the earth isn't actually being displaced. The argument that this just means you can't detect it from the surface, so long as it's sufficiently underground is reading WAY too much into a fairly simple description. Some DMs would apply logic and say that only things similar in construction to the elemental could travel this way, but that's not necessary.

The description of "moving as easily through the earth as a fish moves through water" could very well be construed to mean that the medium (earth or stone) becomes fluid immediately around the elemental, closing seamlessly behind it. This would allow more flexibility for who/what can be carried. If you gave adequate warning to your players of how your version of Earth Glide works, leaving them partially entombed in stone could provide an interesting dynamic. If you wanted to kill them in an entirely unfair way, you could bury them a mile below the surface in a perfectly-fitting tomb of stone. To actually be fair about it, why not apply the mechanic that says you take damage and are shifted back to the point of entry when your Earth Glide effect ends (it ends when you're no longer in contact with the grantor), as the spell? This allows your elementals to make full use of the ability, without providing an "instant" or "very-slightly-delayed" death attack.

If you go with the "only carried objects" approach, this is nothing like water or air. With this approach, you simply can't bring other animate things along with you. Period. If you go with the "earth parts like water" (for the user) approach, then the grapple bonus for moving into harmful terrain is the least you can do.

Finally, the idea that this in any way resembles the incorporeal trait is so far beyond logic it's hard to address. Incorporeal objects don't have a special affinity with any "real" thing the way an elemental does. They don't coexist with the wall or floor, they just ignore it. The notion that you could grant the incorporeal trait to a physical creature is laughable. Incorporeals have trouble affecting the physical world AT ALL. They wouldn't be able to bring things along with them except in very rare circumstances (a wizard's or druid's familiar/companion, which gets share spells, for instance).

See above for why you don't need to include your familiar as a creature for purposes of spells like teleport.

[Woodsfellow]

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

Essentially can an earth elemental (lets say friendly for the sake of argument) carry someone underground. Obviously they won't be able to breathe without precautions, but otherwise is it possible?

Follow up: What spells/items would make it possible?

Example scenario: A halfling wizard has an earth elemental familiar.

Well Earth Elementals could come in any shape and you could just use earth mold(You cause shapes, colors, or both to appear on the dirt or stone) Technically it's magic material but you could allow it since it's his familiar it would only last a hour but that should be plenty

[eyelessgame]

Tangrid wrote:

First, I realize this thread is a little old

Hold my beer.

(clears throat)

1. In general, you can bring other things with you when you move. This is true for monsters and PCs alike. It's specifically not the case for incorporeal creatures - they cannot interact with physical objects unless they have the ghost touch property, as covered by specific rules.

2. Items are not necessarily the same as characters. If you pick up a sword and turn invisible, the sword turns invisible. This is not true if you pick up the party halfling. So this makes things more ambiguous.

3. earth glide is not sufficiently described. The "essence" description above is one possible interpretation. "The earth simply acts like water" is another - the elemental's movement pushes the ground aside, temporarily, and it acts like a (viscous) liquid, its surface returning to look exactly as it did before.

4. It's also not clear at all how this power differs from the elemental's burrowing speed, beyond being a specification of how burrowing works for elementals specifically - can an elemental burrow without earth gliding?

5. If one were to buy the "earth=>water" argument, this provides a potential solution to the auto-burying power of a medium earth elemental: if a creature is abandoned in the earth after being grabbed and dragged by the elemental, the earth returning to its normal characteristics no longer has room for them, and thus causes them to "surface", squeezing them out to the nearest open air, possibly doing, say, 1d6/10 feet crushing damage that they're forced to travel. There is precedent; it makes this equivalent to what an air elemental can do in the opposite direction, where the crushing damage all happens at the end.

6. All that said, the problem I have with this interpretation is not combat-related: it provides a way for the fourth-level spell (summon monster IV) to duplicate the power of passwall, if you can tell a summoned elemental to move back and forth through a wall and carry each party member one at a time.

7. It is also a defensible interpretation of the rules that what cannot be carried by the elemental is not creatures but metal. In which case, the characters would simply have to place all metal items into a handy haversack or larger extradimensional space, then let the elemental carry them (holding their breath).

After all that, I don't know how I'm going to rule this.

[Melkiador]

Weird necro, but at least most of those guys are still around. It feels like you are stating your opinions as fact though. Do you have any sources to site on this that didn’t exist 10 years ago?

Funny enough I was wondering about this topic just last night. Could I summon an elemental to bury some treasure for me?

[eyelessgame]

Melkiador wrote:

Weird necro, but at least most of those guys are still around. It feels like you are stating your opinions as fact though. Do you have any sources to site on this that didn’t exist 10 years ago?

Nope. When RAW is insufficiently precise, everyone gives their own take. I simply hadn't provided mine yet.

Certainly the rules on incorporeals just in the main book seem clear, and some of the folks a decade ago seemed unclear about those.

But "X is a possible interpretation" doesn't require any additional rules to be discovered. It's just another interpretation, one that hadn't been made (or at least emphasized). Ditto for the metal exemption - something that is mentioned in the rules, though for what an elemental couldn't move through, not speculating on what it couldn't carry.

As for the rest, and for stating my opinion with some assurance: if I didn't believe my own opinions to be correct, they wouldn't be my opinions; my opinions would be whatever I did believe to be correct. ;) Of course they're just my take.

Melkiador wrote:

Funny enough I was wondering about this topic just last night. Could I summon an elemental to bury some treasure for me?

I'd certainly expect you could. Depending on where you bury it and what you bury, a xorn might well decide you're their DoorDash delivery person.

[Diego Rossi]

Melkiador wrote:

Weird necro, but at least most of those guys are still around. It feels like you are stating your opinions as fact though. Do you have any sources to site on this that didn’t exist 10 years ago?

Funny enough I was wondering about this topic just last night. Could I summon an elemental to bury some treasure for me?

I have looked a bit at my old posts, and my current opinion is somewhat different.

Quote:

Earth Glide (Ex) A burrowing earth elemental can pass through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water. If protected against fire damage, it can even glide through lava. Its burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or other sign of its presence. A move earth spell cast on an area containing a burrowing earth elemental flings the elemental back 30 feet, stunning the creature for 1 round unless it succeeds on a DC 15 Fortitude save.

Earth Glide (Ex) of the elementals works as the Su version, but it is not magical. So the Earth becomes "liquid" around the elemental. That should allow it to transport something through the earth if it isn't too massive.

As Melkiador said, we are giving opinions, as RAW is unclear.

[Hugo Rune]

My view is that the Elemental's movement is more akin to a force moving through the earth. The creature's physical body is made up of the earth in that location. Therefore it couldn't carry something with it.

[Melkiador]

Hugo Rune wrote:

My view is that the Elemental's movement is more akin to a force moving through the earth. The creature's physical body is made up of the earth in that location. Therefore it couldn't carry something with it.

If that were the case, the elemental would leave an elemental size hole out of whatever earth it pops out of, but we know it doesn’t.

[Hugo Rune]

Melkiador wrote:

Hugo Rune wrote:

My view is that the Elemental's movement is more akin to a force moving through the earth. The creature's physical body is made up of the earth in that location. Therefore it couldn't carry something with it.

If that were the case, the elemental would leave an elemental size hole out of whatever earth it pops out of, but we know it doesn’t.

It wouldn't pop out of the ground but rather force the ground into an earth elemental (let's assume roughly humanoid) shape if it is traveling on the surface. Sort of like a hand running under a sheet, the hand shapes the sheet but can't pop out. Once the hand has passed the sheet resettled. I see the earth doing a similar thing after the elemental has passed.

[eyelessgame]

I do like the idea of an elemental being akin to a spirit or force inhabiting a quantity of whatever element it is - in DC Comics, Swamp Thing, a "plant elemental", is explicitly this; the plants themselves comprising his body are incidental, and "he" is just a spirit that animates them - but I don't know that elementals are meant to be that in standard Pathfinder or Golarion or D&D cosmology, and very little in the descriptions of them supports that reading.

That said, nothing particularly says that it's wrong, either. Some versions and editions of our favorite hobby have said that a quantity of the appropriate element must be present in order to summon an elemental, but that's obviously not the case from 3rd edition forward.

An elemental does definitely manipulate its element, meaning that an earth elemental must have some ability to manipulate earth (and thus stone). The inability of an earth elemental to do the equivalent of dig (see non-PF SRD sources) or stone shape or create pit is, I suppose, mostly a game-balance limitation - summon a small elemental, talk to it, get the effect of a much higher-level spell - note my comment above about passwall.

I'm not answering the question here (because of course it's obvious RAW doesn't resolve it even on careful reading). I do wonder whether I agree about the differences being assumed based on [Su] versus [Ex] earth glide, but I'm intrigued.

When RAW isn't clear, the most important consideration is this -- "if we give an earth elemental this capability, is it overpowered?" I gave my earlier response with that question in mind - if it is able to pull party members through walls, it has to be at least inefficient and clumsy about it to avoid eliminating the need for passwall, and it shouldn't be able to instakill a target by trapping them underground or inside a wall.

(Also, "no larger than" needs to be part of the calculation: Small elementals can't pull Medium characters through a wall. Still means every all-halfling/gnome parties get the equivalent of passwall at third level, as does a party willing to invest in some reduce person wands... but that doesn't affect my campaign too much.)

[Java Man]

What this means for wildshaping druids in elemental form is a concern of mine.

[Azothath]

Large Earth Elemental
Earth Glide

I think it hails back to the old invisibility problem. If you can cover it or carry it IN gear/equipment then it's legal.
You can possess an object but not a creature. So just carrying it (within your load capacity) isn't enough.
Grappling/Pin or just the Condition Helpless isn't enough.
Reposition doesn't let you move CM targets into dangerous areas as there's a second feat to do that.

My example would be a human wizard and a halfling rogue. If the wizard puts the halfling on his shoulders and casts invisibility - only the caster goes invisible. If he puts the halfling in a sack and throws it over his shoulder then casts invisibility they BOTH go invisible (well - the halfling is in an invisible sack).

So give your large sized elemental a sack and get it for the ride. Woe unto the dropped sack mid trip.

-comments-

GM tip: never give a creature nummies and expect them not to sample a few.

Going into the exact shape of an elemental (hollow large cube) and saying it's an earth elevator is clearly in the Home Game GMs area. RAW wise the creature does not have swallow whole etc.
Personally I can see a GM giving a Large+ Earth Elemental a Move Earth SLA or "earth" abilities along those lines. Same for other elementals and their thematic elements (see Mephit).
I fully support casting Fly and Invisibility on a Gelatinous Cube and being swallowed and going on a ride. I'd consult the 3.0/3.5 Forgotten Realms/Neverwinter Drow about it or crystal ball "Gelatinous Cube Mount".

[Diego Rossi]

Hugo Rune wrote:

Melkiador wrote:

Hugo Rune wrote:

My view is that the Elemental's movement is more akin to a force moving through the earth. The creature's physical body is made up of the earth in that location. Therefore it couldn't carry something with it.

If that were the case, the elemental would leave an elemental size hole out of whatever earth it pops out of, but we know it doesn’t.

It wouldn't pop out of the ground but rather force the ground into an earth elemental (let's assume roughly humanoid) shape if it is traveling on the surface. Sort of like a hand running under a sheet, the hand shapes the sheet but can't pop out. Once the hand has passed the sheet resettled. I see the earth doing a similar thing after the elemental has passed.

There is no rule saying that an earth elemental need to be in contact with earth, rock, or soil. It can fly without problems if it has a way to do it. It can be summoned on the wooden bridge of a ship.

Its existence isn't dependent on having access to other earth besides its own, so forcing it to link with existing earth is imposing a rule that doesn't exist. Fine for a home game, not for the rule forum.

Do you allow the appearance of a fire elemental only if there is a fire going?

[Hugo Rune]

Diego Rossi wrote:

Hugo Rune wrote:

Melkiador wrote:

Hugo Rune wrote:

My view is that the Elemental's movement is more akin to a force moving through the earth. The creature's physical body is made up of the earth in that location. Therefore it couldn't carry something with it.

If that were the case, the elemental would leave an elemental size hole out of whatever earth it pops out of, but we know it doesn’t.

It wouldn't pop out of the ground but rather force the ground into an earth elemental (let's assume roughly humanoid) shape if it is traveling on the surface. Sort of like a hand running under a sheet, the hand shapes the sheet but can't pop out. Once the hand has passed the sheet resettled. I see the earth doing a similar thing after the elemental has passed.

There is no rule saying that an earth elemental need to be in contact with earth, rock, or soil. It can fly without problems if it has a way to do it. It can be summoned on the wooden bridge of a ship.

Its existence isn't dependent on having access to other earth besides its own, so forcing it to link with existing earth is imposing a rule that doesn't exist. Fine for a home game, not for the rule forum.

Do you allow the appearance of a fire elemental only if there is a fire going?

I've never said it's existence is tied to the earth or equivalent for other elementals. All I've said is how I visualise it's movement through said element. It's just imagination, nothing rule breaking.

I've run through the ToEE campaign several times over the decades and more than once the party has ended up on the elemental planes. I imagine roads in the plane of earth to be seams of ore and the like. Eg follow the iron ore seam until you hit the bauxite, then take a right along the bauxite until you reach the granite...again just imagination.