Design Manager
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So the Monk's Flurry of Blows feature states "A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands."
And the Zen Archer's Flurry has the following change listed " A zen archer does not apply his Strength bonus on damage rolls made with flurry of blows unless he is using a composite bow with a Strength rating. A zen archer's flurry of blows otherwise functions as normal for a monk of his level."
Does this mean that non Zen Archer monks apply their STR bonus to damage when flurrying with ranged weapons?
I was just thinking how amusing it would be to have a Sohei/Weapon Master/Pistolero/Duelist who gets to add their STR, DEX, and INT to damage for all of their attack rolls.
Probably, yeah.
Not all that helpful for a normal Monk whose ranged Flurry options boil down to Shuriken and...that's it I think.
A Sohei/Pistolero with Kirin Strike would be hilarious.
Generally though, when the rules fail you, use common sense. Pulling the trigger harder on your crossbow or rifle isn't going to make it do more damage. :P
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Design Manager
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A Sohei/Pistolero with Kirin Strike would be hilarious.
Generally though, when the rules fail you, use common sense. Pulling the trigger harder on your crossbow or rifle isn't going to make it do more damage. :P
I feel like the rules aren't failing me here, they're providing me with awesome.
No, non-zen archery monks do not get STR to ranged attacks, unless it is a thrown monk weapon, as flurry of blows states.
The usual monk does not receive proficiency in a projectile range weapon. The zen archer archetype does, so the passage you linked provides clarification and basically adds bows to the list of items that qualify for Flurry of Blows, including the STR bonus, if, and only if, you have a Composite STR bow. Even so, you would only be able to add as much of your STR as the bow allows, not the entirety of it.
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monks apply full strength damage on thrown weapons when used in a flurry. thrown weapons apply strength to damage. If a TWF character drew and threw two daggers, he'd get +STR on the main attack, +1/2 STR on the off hand thrown attack.
zen archers are limited to the strength pull of their bow. bows are limited in their damage.
a STR 18 fighter still needs a +4 strength pull bow to apply any bonus to damage when firing.
a monk does not magically get to add his strength modifier with a weapon when used in a flurry. that is still a property of what weapon he is using, and how.
since a character never applies strength bonus to a gun for damage when making a ranged attack. a soehei/weapon master/pistolero/duelist would gain no benefit from a high strength score. Guns do not add strength to damage.
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Design Manager
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since a character never applies strength bonus to a gun for damage when making a ranged attack. a soehei/weapon master/pistolero/duelist would gain no benefit from a high strength score. Guns do not add strength to damage.
Flurry specifically adds STR to all attacks made in it though. It doesn't differentiate between ranged or melee or anything else. It just says "A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows."
So barring any other reason why this specifically would not apply, if you can flurry with it, you get your STR bonus to damage and can disarm, sunder, or trip with any of the attacks.
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you do not gain a strength bonus to damage with a ranged weapon when you flurry, unless you can normally apply it.
flurry of blows is specifically talking about melee attacks and attacks with thrown weapons.
zen archer specifically adds bows, and says that you need a strength pull in order to apply your strength bonus. if you have a strength penalty you take that normally.
you're being a dense cheese weasel. stop it.
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Projectile Weapons: Blowguns, light crossbows, slings, heavy crossbows, shortbows, composite shortbows, longbows, composite longbows, halfling sling staves, hand crossbows, and repeating crossbows are projectile weapons. Most projectile weapons require two hands to use (see specific weapon descriptions). A character gets no Strength bonus on damage rolls with a projectile weapon unless it's a specially built composite shortbow or longbow, or a sling. If the character has a penalty for low Strength, apply it to damage rolls when he uses a bow or a sling.
Flurry of blows is specifically talking about melee weapons.
Normally when you use two weapons you apply your strength modifier to your primary attack, and half your strength modifier to your off hand attack.
An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon.
One-Handed: A one-handed weapon can be used in either the primary hand or the off hand. Add the wielder's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or 1/2 his Strength bonus if it's used in the off hand. If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls.
Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.
If you gain the ability to Flurry with a non-monk weapon, you do not automatically get to apply strength damage to the attack. Just like you do not get to apply strength damage twice to a melee attack with flurry, once because you normally do and once because flurry says you get to do it. You apply damage like you would normally with the attack you are using. Flurry is stating that there is an exception to the usual treatment of light weapons ( your unarmed strike, or monk weapon ) when using it to flurry in melee, in that you apply your full strength modifier, not 1/2 your strength modifier.
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Design Manager
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you do not gain a strength bonus to damage with a ranged weapon when you flurry, unless you can normally apply it.
flurry of blows is specifically talking about melee attacks and attacks with thrown weapons.
zen archer specifically adds bows, and says that you need a strength pull in order to apply your strength bonus. if you have a strength penalty you take that normally.you're being a dense cheese weasel. stop it.
I can't deny it's cheesy, however:
Specific trumps general, and while generally you don't gain STR to damage with ranged attacks, Flurry of Blows specifically applies your STR modifier to all flurry attacks. There is absolutely nothing in the ability which limits this to a particular weapon type or combat type, outside of the clauses specifying which weapon groups can be used to flurry.Duelist's get to apply their INT to all attacks with a light or one-handed piercing weapon. Does their ability to think harder make that much mechanical sense for added damage?
Dervish dance allows you to use DEX for damage. Does being more graceful make sense for dealing more damage with a melee weapon?
Flurry of blows states no such thing.
Ahem, "a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham"
Then further down, "A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands."
So, you ONLY get the STR bonus when using monk weapons, and the only ranged weapon for a monk listed is Shuriken. So you only get STR bonus, for flurry of blows when using a thrown monk weapon, specifically, shuriken.
As previously stated, the zen master merely adds bows to the list of monk weapons. Thereafter allowing them to be used with flurry of blows and gaining the STR bonus, but only with condition, like every other character, you use a Composite STR bow.
The second passage you linked is actually clarifying that you ONLY get the flurry of blows bonus with bows, and it the ability functions regularly otherwise. (If you chose to throw a dagger using Flurry of blows, you would not get the bonus)
As Seraphimpunk stated, you are trying to bend the rules beyond the obvious for benefit. No right-minded DM will allow it.
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Design Manager
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Flurry of blows states no such thing.Ahem, "a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham"
Then further down, "A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands."
So, you ONLY get the STR bonus when using monk weapons, and the only ranged weapon for a monk listed is Shuriken. So you only get STR bonus, for flurry of blows when using a thrown monk weapon, specifically, shuriken.
As previously stated, the zen master merely adds bows to the list of monk weapons. Thereafter allowing them to be used with flurry of blows and gaining the STR bonus, but only with condition, like every other character, you use a Composite STR bow.
The second passage you linked is actually clarifying that you ONLY get the flurry of blows bonus with bows, and it the ability functions regularly otherwise. (If you chose to throw a dagger using Flurry of blows, you would not get the bonus)
As Seraphimpunk stated, you are trying to bend the rules beyond the obvious for benefit. No right-minded DM will allow it.
"Right-minded DM" is a pretty subjective term, and you still haven't provided me any RAW context for this not working. Is it cheese? of course it is. Would one of my players get a swift slap upside the head if they showed up at my table with the proposed character sheet? Odds are. Is it completely legal by RAW? Sure is.
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Precise Strike (Ex): A duelist gains the ability to strike precisely with a light or one-handed piercing weapon, adding her duelist level to her damage roll.
so no. Duelists do not get to add their INT damage. they get to add their CLASS LEVEL because they are using precision to strike.
and a pistol is not a one-handed piercing weapon, its a one handed ranged weapon that uses ammunition, that can deal bludgeoning and piercing damage.
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13, Weapon Finesse, Perform (dance) 2 ranks, proficient with scimitar.
Benefit: When wielding a scimitar with one hand, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee attack and damage rolls. You treat the scimitar as a one-handed piercing weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s precise strike ability). The scimitar must be for a creature of your size. You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand.
so NO, you don't get to apply your DEX to damage with a pistol thanks to dervish dance, you get to apply it to a SCIMITAR in place of your Strength modifier.
and last but not least: A SOHEI MAY NOT FLURRY WITH A FIREARM
Weapon Training (Ex): At 6th level, a sohei gains weapon training in one of the following weapon groups, as the fighter class feature: bows, crossbows, monk weapons, polearms, spears, or thrown weapons. He may select an additional group of weapons for every six levels after 6th, to a maximum of three at 18th level. A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training. This ability replaces purity of body, diamond body, quivering palm, timeless body, and tongue of sun and moon.
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Look, I get that it's cheesy and the very idea of it is abhorrent, but here's the thing. I play in PFS. If a player shows up at a PFS game with " a Sohei/Weapon Master/Pistolero/Duelist who gets to add their STR, DEX, and INT to damage for all of their attack rolls", you know what? He gets to play it, because it's totally legit, not even open to interpretation. So we come in and discuss things like this in the hope that the wandering eye of a dev will come in and say "Yeah, we actually kind of figured that was okay" or "Of course that doesn't work, what are you thinking?!". Because there's nothing in the rules stopping this guy, and most open gaming venues have to allow him.
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Because there's nothing in the rules stopping this guy, and most open gaming venues have to allow him.
yes. there is. there's this thing called the rules.
You'd need Pistolero 5 to add dex to your firearm.
For a Weapons Master to gain any bonus to damage you'd need Fighter 3
For a Sohei to get Weapon Training he's got to be 6th level.
that's already 14th level. well out of the range of PFS play. before you add in Duelist.
and thats well besides the fact that you won't get your INT to damage nor your STR to damage with a firearm.
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Design Manager
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[a whole bunch of stuff]
Let me take this one at a time:
INT just works well for the Duelist and adds to AC, the INT to damage is coming from Kirin Strike, which I could have been clearer on.I never said Dervish Dance was giving him Dex to damage, that's coming from Pistol Training.
The Sohei's ability says " A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training."
The levels in Weapon Master give him Weapon Training in a chosen weapon, which could easily be a double-barreled pistol.
There you go, all wrapped up nice and neat and pretty as you please.
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Design Manager
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Because there's nothing in the rules stopping this guy, and most open gaming venues have to allow him.yes. there is. there's this thing called the rules.
You'd need Pistolero 5 to add dex to your firearm.
For a Weapons Master to gain any bonus to damage you'd need Fighter 3
For a Sohei to get Weapon Training he's got to be 6th level.that's already 14th level. well out of the range of PFS play. before you add in Duelist.
and thats well besides the fact that you won't get your INT to damage nor your STR to damage with a firearm.
That's not necessarily out of range for all PFS play. There are a number of legal PFS games that go up to 16+ now. I don't have the link for you, but 12 is not the limit of play for all legal scenarios and PFS approved adventures currently.
I already laid out exactly how I'm getting INT and STR to damage, not to mention having a badass AC. And the argument that a firearm is not a one-handed piercing weapon is just silly. Of course it is. Just as much as a morningstar or a rapier.
"Right-minded DM" is a pretty subjective term, and you still haven't provided me any RAW context for this not working. Is it cheese? of course it is. Would one of my players get a swift slap upside the head if they showed up at my table with the proposed character sheet? Odds are. Is it completely legal by RAW? Sure is.Flurry of blows states no such thing.Ahem, "a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham"
Then further down, "A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands."
So, you ONLY get the STR bonus when using monk weapons, and the only ranged weapon for a monk listed is Shuriken. So you only get STR bonus, for flurry of blows when using a thrown monk weapon, specifically, shuriken.
As previously stated, the zen master merely adds bows to the list of monk weapons. Thereafter allowing them to be used with flurry of blows and gaining the STR bonus, but only with condition, like every other character, you use a Composite STR bow.
The second passage you linked is actually clarifying that you ONLY get the flurry of blows bonus with bows, and it the ability functions regularly otherwise. (If you chose to throw a dagger using Flurry of blows, you would not get the bonus)
As Seraphimpunk stated, you are trying to bend the rules beyond the obvious for benefit. No right-minded DM will allow it.
I just provided the RAW context. You are simply choosing to ignore it. Let me provide further clarification:
Non-zen archer monks only get the STR bonus when using a monk weapon, all monk weapons are of the type you would receive a STR bonus anyway (melee or thrown). It wouldn't matter if the monk gained other proficiencies, or what the weapon is, per the very specific class ability description, you would not receive a STR bonus unless it was a weapon listed in Flurry of Blows.
Modifications to this list, such as made by the Zen Archer or other archetypes, could very well result in different circumstances. But a regular monk does not receive a STR bonus on projectile ranged attacks while flurrying with a non-monk weapon.
Why? Because for you to even consider that ridiculous possibility you have to go the the Zen Archer ability description, which doesn't apply to the regular monk anyway.
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just provided the RAW context. You are simply choosing to ignore it. Let me provide further clarification:
Non-zen archer monks only get the STR bonus when using a monk weapon, all monk weapons are of the type you would receive a STR bonus anyway (melee or thrown). It wouldn't matter if the monk gained other proficiencies, or what the weapon is, per the very specific class ability description, you would not receive a STR bonus unless it was a weapon listed in Flurry of Blows.
Modifications to this list, such as made by the Zen Archer or other archetypes, could very well result in different circumstances. But a regular monk does not receive a STR bonus on projectile ranged attacks while flurrying with a non-monk weapon.
Why? Because for you to even consider that ridiculous possibility you have to go the the Zen Archer ability description, which doesn't apply to the regular monk anyway.
You did not provide RAW context, and I'm not ignoring anything. I laid out exactly how this all works, if you don't want to read it, that's your problem not mine.
Just because the "normal" weapons are a non-issue, does not mean that the base ability itself doesn't work exactly like it says when new weapons are introduced via a legal source.
I thought with a Sohei, you could only get weapon training in so many weapon groups. And firearms isn't one of them. Am I missing something?
Edited to add: Oh, you're saying he'd pick up fighter levels, and gain it. I see. Lame. RAW? Sure. Don't plan on playing it long, though, surely they'll word it clearly on an errata soon, and there you go.
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I thought with a Sohei, you could only get weapon training in so many weapon groups. And firearms isn't one of them. Am I missing something?
If you check out the Sohei ability it says "A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training". My proposed character took levels of Weapon master, which gives you Weapon Training in any weapon you please. Sohei doesn't specify that it only applies to weapons gained via that classes Weapon Training, and the FAQ in place covering a similar situation like this actually says "General rule: If a class ability modifies your spellcasting, it applies to your spells from all classes, not just spells from the class that grants the ability. (The exception is if the class ability specifically says it only applies to spells from that class.)"
Granted that FAQ is applying to spellcasting, but it gives some precedent for abilities affecting a given given function applying to all instances of that function.
We are in total agreement, and congrats on finding the cheese. It helps the erratas. And bonus points for that FAQ reference. I asked a bit ago, but that FAQ reference makes me believe that a level 1 sorcerer/level 19 druid can boost his sorc CL from 1 to 5 using a Strand of Prayer Beads (bead of karma). Now I'm more sure that it can. So, grats, and thanks.
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you still don't get to add your strength bonus to damage when flurrying with a firearm.
you're choosing to ignore the rules. and the Weapon Master weapon training is different than the Fighter Weapon Training class feature. You get it only in the one weapon. You need Weapon training from the Fighter group, aka, Fighter 5 not Weapon Master 3, in order to flurry with any weapon from the Firearm group.
DESPITE THAT. you would need the ability to reload it as a free action by then. It would not be granted to you automatically. Much like Crossbow archers/rangers need to take rapid reload and/or crossbow mastery to rapid shot with a Crossbow.
and this is the kirin strike you're looking at?
Prerequisite: Int 13, Kirin Style, Improved Unarmed Strike, Knowledge (arcana) 9 ranks, Knowledge (dungeoneering, local, nature, planes, or religion) 3 ranks.
Benefit: You gain a +2 insight bonus on Knowledge checks made to identify creatures, including the one Kirin Style allows. While using Kirin Style against a creature you have identified using that feat, as a swift action after you have hit a creature with a melee or ranged attack, you can add twice your Intelligence modifier in damage (minimum 2).
so lets see, you're planning to have what, Str 14, Dex 14, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 10 ?
take Weapon Finesse and Dodge at 1st level, Mobility at 3rd level, kirin style at 7th level, and kirin strike at 9th level,and be a Pistolero 5/Fighter 5/Sohei 6/Duelist 4 ?
lets say you did go Pistolero 1/Fighter 5/Sohei 6
and got your pistol with rapid reload and alchemical cartridges to a free action. you may trick it out and be able to add 2x your INT to damage as a swift action after you hit with one of your attacks. and you may add Dex to damage when you hit Pistolero 5.
YOU STILL DON'T ADD STRENGTH TO DAMAGE WITH A FIREARM. NO ONE NEEDS TO ERRATA THAT.
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Normally you don't. Unless you can flurry with it. Because flurrying, by RAW, says you do.
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Design Manager
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Exactly. Weapon Master gives you Weapon Training. That's exactly what it is, Weapon Training. Sohei says you can flurry with any weapon you have Weapon Training with. Still good so far. Flurry says "A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands."
What does that mean? It means that by RAW a Sohei 6 / Weapon Master 3 with a double-barreled pistol as his chosen weapon adds his full STR bonus to his damage rolls. Add 5 levels of Pistolero, and he's adding full DEX mod, take Kirin Strike and he can add double INT. Throw in Duelist levels to top it off and you get a further bonus = to PrC level to your damage.
And RAW, it all works.
Exactly. Weapon Master gives you Weapon Training. That's exactly what it is, Weapon Training. Sohei says you can flurry with any weapon you have Weapon Training with. Still good so far. Flurry says "A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands."
What does that mean? It means that by RAW a Sohei 6 / Weapon Master 3 with a double-barreled pistol as his chosen weapon adds his full STR bonus to his damage rolls. Add 5 levels of Pistolero, and he's adding full DEX mod, take Kirin Strike and he can add double INT. Throw in Duelist levels to top it off and you get a further bonus = to PrC level to your damage.
And RAW, it all works.
pistolero can actually add Dex twice.
Pistol Training adds Dex to damage with all 1handed firearms, but it doesn't explicitly say that it replaces Gun Training. which means that Gun training can add Dex a 2nd time.
Pistolero 5/Weapon Master 3/Sohei 1 is all you need. sohei 6 justs increases your weapon training further and lets you flurry with more groups.
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Exactly. Weapon Master gives you Weapon Training. That's exactly what it is, Weapon Training. Sohei says you can flurry with any weapon you have Weapon Training with. Still good so far. Flurry says "A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands."
What does that mean? It means that by RAW a Sohei 6 / Weapon Master 3 with a double-barreled pistol as his chosen weapon adds his full STR bonus to his damage rolls. Add 5 levels of Pistolero, and he's adding full DEX mod, take Kirin Strike and he can add double INT. Throw in Duelist levels to top it off and you get a further bonus = to PrC level to your damage.
And RAW, it all works.
pistolero can actually add Dex twice.
Pistol Training adds Dex to damage with all 1handed firearms, but it doesn't explicitly say that it replaces Gun Training. which means that Gun training can add Dex a 2nd time.
Pistolero 5/Weapon Master 3/Sohei 1 is all you need. sohei 6 justs increases your weapon training further and lets you flurry with more groups.
No, once again. it doesn't.
First off, Gun training doesn't add your Dex to damage a second time. Weapon Training from the fighter class feature adds +1 to hit, +1 to damage.Second the Sohei GAINS the ability to flurry with any weapon he has the Weapon Training feature in at 6th level of Sohei. He does not have the ability to flurry with any weapon other than a monk weapon before then, just like a standard monk.
A sohei gets Weapon Training as the Fighter class feature in a weapon GROUP, not as the alternate class feature of the Weapon's Master which grants an ability of the same name to ONE WEAPON. Sohei requires Weapon Training as the Fighter class feature in order for it to stack.
The rules do not state that you get to add strength damage with any attack that is considered a flurry. The rules just explain that you get your entire strength bonus with a melee or thrown weapon while flurrying.
i'll stop wasting my breath on you people, since you obviously don't care how the rules actually work.
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A sohei gets Weapon Training as the Fighter class feature in a weapon GROUP, not as the alternate class feature of the Weapon's Master which grants an ability of the same name to ONE WEAPON. Sohei requires Weapon Training as the Fighter class feature in order for it to stack.
The rules do not state that you get to add strength damage with any attack that is considered a flurry....
The Weapon Master's Weapon Training is still the Weapon Training class feature, it just applies to a single weapon instead of a group. It is a perfectly valid target for the ability. The Sohei's ability is "A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training." and the Weapon Master's class feature is... "Weapon Training". All nice and neat.
And the rules actually DO state that you add you strength to damage with any attack in a flurry, I've pointed it out like 20 times so far. The rules don't say anything about melee or thrown, just that all attacks with a flurry gain STR mod to damage, even for off-hand and two handed weapons. The rules say exactly what I'm saying they do, you just don't want them to. I don't particularly either. Thus the thread.
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last attempt.
the context of flurry of blows is melee attacks and two weapon fighting.
you see this passage in equipment that tells how to determine melee damage when wielding a weapon in both hands?
Add the wielder's Strength modifier to damage rolls for melee attacks with a light weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or half the wielder's Strength bonus if it's used in the off hand. Using two hands to wield a light weapon gives no advantage on damage; the Strength bonus applies as though the weapon were held in the wielder's primary hand only.
An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon.
notice how flurry of blows lists the differences in how a monk's unarmed strike reacts when using it for two weapon fighting?
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands.
thats it. its not saying that you get to add your strength damage with any weapon you flurry with as some supernatural property of the Flurry of Blows class feature.
all zen archer does is say that a Zen Archer can flurry of blows with a bow but,
A zen archer does not apply his Strength bonus on damage rolls made with flurry of blows unless he is using a composite bow with a Strength rating.
any GM with sanity left will understand that Flurry of Blows does not work with other ranged weapons, and even if it did, it would be limited by the weapon. If you could somehow flurry of blows with a crossbow, you would not get to add your strength bonus to damage.
all a developer will do will sneer at your cheese weasel idiotic question and gloss over it as already answered. You're just refusing to accept the answer.
good gaming.
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It says exactly what it says. When Zen Archer was designed, it was very apparent that the designer of the archetype saw the exact same thing I did and made sure to put in a clause specifically prohibiting it. While one should be able to infer intent, the reality remains that there are multiple ways to flurry with non-traditional weapons, and Flurry says you "apply your full Strength bonus to your damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows".
Cleric/monk's can flurry with their deity's favored weapon. Sohei's can flurry with darn near anything. I believe there are a few other options that open this up. It is worth discussing and hopefully gaining clarification on, so there's a nice little sound bite to kill it with the next time it rolls along.
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Design Manager
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It says exactly what it says. When Zen Archer was designed, it was very apparent that the designer of the archetype saw the exact same thing I did and made sure to put in a clause specifically prohibiting it. While one should be able to infer intent, the reality remains that there are multiple ways to flurry with non-traditional weapons, and Flurry says you "apply your full Strength bonus to your damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows"....Actually, I doubt that since Zen Archers can ONLY flurry with bows, they can't flurry with anything else, even unarmed strike:
"Starting at 1st level, a zen archer can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action, but only when using a bow (even though it is a ranged weapon). He may not make a flurry of blows with his unarmed attacks or any other weapons. A zen archer does not apply his Strength bonus on damage rolls made with flurry of blows unless he is using a composite bow with a Strength rating. A zen archer's flurry of blows otherwise functions as normal for a monk of his level."
So I'm guessing they put that line in to clarify that Zen Archers don't get a special ability to add strength damage to normal bows, but they can add their strength to composite bows when flurrying. Adding their strength modifier to other weapons when flurrying certainly isn't an issue with Zen Archers.
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Thank you for making my point. Why would anyone think that a Zen Archer could add STR to his normal bow attacks unless... *GASP* The normal rules for Flurry say so.
Also, the Animal Companion lists really aren't comparative to this situation. Cavaliers and Samurais have a clause that explicitly states their mount must be one of a certain limited set of options. The Sohei only gains Weapon Training in a limited selection, but has no such clauses limiting his ability to flurry with his Weapon Training choices, regardless of how they were gained.
Exactly. Weapon Master gives you Weapon Training. That's exactly what it is, Weapon Training. Sohei says you can flurry with any weapon you have Weapon Training with. Still good so far. Flurry says "A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands."
What does that mean? It means that by RAW a Sohei 6 / Weapon Master 3 with a double-barreled pistol as his chosen weapon adds his full STR bonus to his damage rolls. Add 5 levels of Pistolero, and he's adding full DEX mod, take Kirin Strike and he can add double INT. Throw in Duelist levels to top it off and you get a further bonus = to PrC level to your damage.
And RAW, it all works.
pistolero can actually add Dex twice.
Pistol Training adds Dex to damage with all 1handed firearms, but it doesn't explicitly say that it replaces Gun Training. which means that Gun training can add Dex a 2nd time.
Pistolero 5/Weapon Master 3/Sohei 1 is all you need. sohei 6 justs increases your weapon training further and lets you flurry with more groups.
No, once again. it doesn't.
First off, Gun training doesn't add your Dex to damage a second time. Weapon Training from the fighter class feature adds +1 to hit, +1 to damage.
there is no rule that says gun training doesn't stack with the 5th level pistolero ability.
just like there is no rule that says weapon finesse and fury's fall don't stack for double Dex mod to trip.
hell. the lore oracle's sidestep secret revelation stacks with the paladin's divine grace.
RAW allows all sorts of crazy shenanigans.
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Design Manager
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***there is no rule that says gun training doesn't stack with the 5th level pistolero ability.
just like there is no rule that says weapon finesse and fury's fall don't stack for double Dex mod to trip.
hell. the lore oracle's sidestep secret revelation stacks with the paladin's divine grace.
RAW allows all sorts of crazy shenanigans.
There's not a rule, but there was developer clarification on the Pistolero's Pistol Training. There are rules that say Fury's Fall and Weapon Finesse don't stack, there's a thread where we lay them all out for you. I also explained why the Oracle's Sidestep secret stacks with Divine Grace. That was me who laid that out all nice and neat. None of those things bear any weight on the fact that RAW says characters add their STR mod to damage to all attacks made with a flurry. All of the "issues" you bring up have either dev clarification or plain old rules laying out that they do what they do. Until something similar is presented, a Sohei/Fighter can flurry with guns and add his STR bonus.
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Design Manager
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Just noticed that this tied pretty closely into another thread I had on the subject so I thought I'd go ahead and tie it in here.