Druid vs Sylvan Bloodline Sorcerer


Advice


Someone please enlighten me, but why is it that a sylvan sorcerer (using Boon Companion feat) can have a much stronger animal companion compared to a druid?

The druid does have a slight advantage on buffs (longstrider, GMF, strong jaw, barkskin, etc.), but most of their buffs are not 1hr/lvl (longstrider and GMF being the exceptions). The sorcerer gets haste, which automatically outdamages the druid's animal, up until level 9 when druid gets animal growth. But then one level later the sorcerer gets it too.

At levels 11-16, it gets even crazier. Sorcerer gets Transform, and Form of the Dragons spells, and can use Spell Perfection with either of those spells, allowing the sorcerer to quicken them for free. So the sorcerer ends up with a dragon form with 6 attacks at full BAB all in 1 round.

At level 17 the druid's companion can finally compete again with Shapechange, but the sorcerer still has Transform to give the upper hand. And once the sorcerer gets Time Stop (specifically in terms of using it for buffing the companion), forget it, it's over.

So... imagine playing a druid in a party with this sorcerer. It'd be demoralizing.


You cant use quicken + SP on both these spells. Druid can cast while being a beast. He can be transformed all the time, has many great forms to use and just plays completely different to a squishy sorcerer. Actually a sorcerer without PrCs/dips should not waste time in "transformation".


Don't forget the Sorc can use Enlarge Person on the Companion from level 1.


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You cant use quicken + SP on both these spells.

You can use SP with Transform (using Magical Lineage trait) to Quicken it, and use your standard action for Form of the Dragon.

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Druid can cast while being a beast. He can be transformed all the time, has many great forms to use and just plays completely different to a squishy sorcerer.

My point wasn't about sorcerer vs druid as casters, but about the animal companion of these two classes. Druids can be built to be a caster or built to be a melee character, I realize that, and sorcerer's style of play is more towards the battlefield control or sometimes blaster, but that wasn't my point. I'm trying to understand what Paizo was thinking when they gave a sorcerer a better animal companion than the class that it was based after.

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Actually a sorcerer without PrCs/dips should not waste time in "transformation".

Transformation would be cast on his animal companion, not himself. I think you might be misunderstanding my entire post.

stuart haffenden wrote:
Don't forget the Sorc can use Enlarge Person on the Companion from level 1.

I keep seeing this mentioned, but I thought that animal companions can only benefit from spells that have "you" as a target/range? Enlarge Person doesn't have that. Can you explain?


Yea, I misunderstood that. In that case there are a lot of classes that can have AC's that are really good. Oracle for example is even more powerful than sorcerer. Let it be an aasimar to have a higher level companion and dip into mammoth rider (what actually any AC-class could do) or just take a cavalier 1, BUFFCLASS 10, Mammoth rider with horsemaster feat. Well, there are a lot of options actually. But as far as AC wont ever be something gamebreaking, especially after level 10 they lose efficiency really fast and need a lot of gold investment to be really viable, I dont really see the issue here. After level 10 even the most optimized pounce companion with 10 levels of Mammoth rider and what so ever wont be too strong or even broken.


I was going to say something about not being able to use spell perfection on either of those spells, but I had forgotten about magical lineage. Do note, however, that doing this is a big feat investment, with boon companion, extra traits, and spell perfection. While he couldn't quicken it, a half-orc druid with beast rider, magical aptitude, and an item creation feat can take 2 levels of pathfinder savant and get access to transformation as well.

Also note that form of the dragon doesn't give you 6 attacks at full BAB but 4 attacks at full BAB and 2 secondaries, which are at BAB-2 and, more importantly, only deal half your strength modifier.

Anyway, at this point you can't deny that you're investing some resources for things similar to what a druid gets already.

However, more importantly, in the end you're not replicating a druid, but fusing the druidic animal companion with the sorcerer's powerful arcane magic. I like this idea a lot actually, and under this sort of thought process seems only sensible that the sorcerer's companion be even stronger than the druid's.

To defend our good friend the druid, we can admit that she gets a lot more mileage out of those same buff spells than the sorcerer does, having wild shape, a higher hit dice and BAB, etc etc. So in terms of fighting in the wild with the help of an animal companion, it would seem the druid still wins first prize.

In the end, it comes down to: Similar feature, but very different style.

Now, that's maybe an acceptable justification, but I mean, it probably wasn't the original intention. As to why Paizo did it? Probably because the game is very large, and they have no real way of predicting every possible option. Combining magical lineage and spell perfection, the boon companion feat, the transformation / share spells combination... There's a lot to look at here. We can't hope to see them get all of it.


First of all the sorcerer had to blow a feat to get his companion up to snuff. That puts the druid one up there. Because of that the druid is going to get augmented summoning two levels earlier. So his summons will be a lot tougher.

Second as a divine caster the druid has access to his entire spell list when he gains a level and gains them one level earlier. A 4th level sorcerer gets a single 2nd level spell which he can cast 3 times per day, a 3rd level druid gets 69 2nd level spells which of which he can cast 1 per day. Pick up scribe scroll and you can have a huge assortment of extra spells. A sorcerer with scribe scroll is wasting a feat.

Third a druid can be a decent combatant himself. With wild shape he can turn into almost any animal and later elementals. This also does not use up his spells so he still has all his spells for use for other things. With the feat natural spell he can even cast while is in another form. This means he can be casting while flying at 4th level.

Fourth is survivability the druid has a big edge d8 instead of d6 HP, 2 good saves instead of one and a higher wisdom which means he will have an even better will save then the sorcerer. He also has access to healing spells which while not as good as a cleric means he can heal himself when damaged. True a sorcerer can use a wand with UMD, but they only have 2 skills points per level, while the druid has 4.

The biggest difference is the sylvan sorcerer is still very squishy and will have a hard time if he does not have a party around him. The druid on the other hand can take care of himself much better than the sorcerer.

If all you want is the meanest nastiest companion don't waste your time with either the sylvan sorcerer or the druid just play a summoner.

Scarab Sages

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Because of that the druid is going to get augmented summoning two levels earlier. So his summons will be a lot tougher.

And this druid has wasted a feat because all they get access to is Summon Nature's Ally which is a massive pile of...

Scarab Sages

Not disputing the rest of your point though


Sirokko wrote:
Anyway, at this point you can't deny that you're investing some resources for things similar to what a druid gets already.

Yeah, that's kinda my whole point though. If a druid wanted to invest her resources to maxing out her animal companion, she simply can't outdo the sorcerer from what I can see. The Pathfinder Savant would be the closest she could get, and it'd require a far steeper price for less benefits.

Form of the Dragon III's secondary attacks will still be higher than a normal druid's animal companion, because the full BAB +20 max -2 will still be higher than a druid's +12 BAB max.

But yea, I realize that when you take the caster into account, the sorcerer and druid play different roles, and certainly when taken as a whole the druid can arguably match the sorcerer.

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However, more importantly, in the end you're not replicating a druid, but fusing the druidic animal companion with the sorcerer's powerful arcane magic. I like this idea a lot actually, and under this sort of thought process seems only sensible that the sorcerer's companion be even stronger than the druid's.

Might wanna think about going aasimar for the Celestial Servant feat, or half-elf for the Paragon Surge spell.


Ender730 wrote:

stuart haffenden wrote:
Don't forget the Sorc can use Enlarge Person on the Companion from level 1.
I keep seeing this mentioned, but I thought that animal companions can only benefit from spells that have "you" as a target/range? Enlarge Person doesn't have that. Can you explain?

Share Spells (Ex): The druid may cast a spell with a target

of “You” on her animal companion (as a spell with a range
of touch) instead of on herself. A druid may cast spells on
her animal companion even if the spells normally do not
affect creatures of the companion’s type (animal)
. Spells
cast in this way must come from a class that grants an
animal companion. This ability does not allow the animal
to share abilities that are not spells, even if they function
like spells.

The bolded sentence appears to be a separate statement after the bit about spells with the target of "you".

It isn't perfectly clear, but then what is!


stuart haffenden wrote:


The bolded sentence appears to be a separate statement after the bit about spells with the target of "you".

It isn't perfectly clear, but then what is!

Huh, I always assumed that sentence was talking about spells mentioned in the previous sentence, but it is rather vague. Would that stack with Animal Growth?

I wonder what all sorts of other spells I've overlooked...


i would like to point out transformation has a 300g component cost every time you cast it.


minoritarian wrote:
Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Because of that the druid is going to get augmented summoning two levels earlier. So his summons will be a lot tougher.

And this druid has wasted a feat because all they get access to is Summon Nature's Ally which is a massive pile of...

If you look at the summon list you will see that for the most part they are pretty much the same except the summon monster have a celestial or fiendish template. While that does make them a little more powerful the druid can spam the summons until he has an army. A wizard trying to do this is going to have to memorize all his spells as summons and if he needs anything else he is screwed. A sorcerer doing this is using up very valuable spell slots that he does not have a lot of.

A 6th level druid could if he needed to summon on the average 19 wolves. Add in his own animal companion and it gets to be a tough fight. Now not all of them will be there at the same time because it will take 10 rounds to summon them all and at that level the first ones will be gone by the time the later ones get summoned. But that means that they will be replaced as they are killed. Add superior summons and that will be an extra 6 wolves for a total of 25 wolves.

Wolves can also use tactics especially if being directed by a druid. Pack tactics are named after wolves so they will be using them. Flanking Aid other and the like.

This type of situation does not come up that often but when it does it can be really effective. Think of a druid in bird form flying above the battle field summoning up creatures where they are needed. If done right the opponents may not even be able to find the druid to stop him. This would be a great way to cover a retreat or as a distraction.

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