Just come across this issue and having discussed it. does control water actually create and destroy water, or does it just move it?
A 2nd level wizard can effect a 20x20x4 foot block of water so does that mean he can take a pool and grow it to that volume of water? Or does it mean as long as the pool of water is smaller than 20x20 he can raise it to 4 feet?
It does not say anywhere in the entry that it creates water, simply it's area of effect per level, so no you cannot use it to create more water than is actually there. Of course, if you have a cleric or druid buddy, he can just create water until you have the desired amount.
Ah true.... thanks
Control water does not create water. It means you can affect existing water that's up to 20x20x4 in volume.
It does not create water since that is not explicitly stated and it doesn't have the creation descriptor.
However, it's a still a transmutation effect. It clearly expands and reduces the mass of water, similarly to how shrink item can reduce a boulder to a pebble or enlarge person can make a man double in height. If all it did was move the water, it would read more like telekinesis or mage hand. But it doesn't. It specifically states that it increases the water's depth and floods surrounding areas. THIS WOULD NOT BE POSSIBLE IF IT DIDN'T GENERATE MORE WATER.
Remember, it's a SIXTH level spell. That makes it MORE POWERFUL than the likes of teleport, overland flight, magic jar, plane shift, awaken, raise freaking dead and true seeing.
It's a POWERFUL SPELL. It's MEANT to be.
Feel free to house rule it to the power of a 1st-level or 2nd-level spell in your own games if that seems like too much to you, but I really don't believe that it simply "moves water around."
It's nearly useless in an open field where the water will just rush out into the open, doing little more than getting everyone wet. But in an enclosed space or out at open sea? That's where it can get real fun. ;D
You can expand and reduce the mass and volume of water without creating more of it.
For the "lower water" effect, it basically states in the flavor text that the water recedes into the surrounding area, meaning it's absorbed through the ground or whatever container it's in.
For the "raise water" effect, it would kind of be like the effect of water taking the shape of it's container. Put a gallon of water in a small cup, and that cup overflows. Put that same gallon of water in an aquarium, and it may barely line to bottom.
Note that to use the "raise water" effect, you need a drop of water as a spell component. In all actuality, you are adding water and then changing the properties of the water up to your maximum effective volume.
Note also that you can raise water level through displacement and changing density. You don't always have to generate more water.
That's how I see this spell working. In effect, it's like Ravingdork says. There is seemingly more water present. By raising the water level in an enclosed space or controlling it out at sea, you use it to maximum effect.
Using it on a dry lake bed in the open air would be almost useless.
More curious than anything is how you think a 2nd level wizard will be casting a 6th level spell....(or were you just using that as a baseline for the "volume" measurement?)
Using it on a dry lake bed in the open air would be almost useless.
True, the water would just rush out and lose any meaningful depth in a matter of moments on a flat open plane. However, if said lake bed is a depression roughly 120x120x24' feet, and you happen to be a 12th-level caster, then you can fill up said depression with water for a total of 200 minutes.
Using it on a dry lake bed in the open air would be almost useless.True, the water would just rush out and lose any meaningful depth in a matter of moments on a flat open plane. However, if said lake bed is a depression roughly 120x120x24' feet, and you happen to be a 12th-level caster, then you can fill up said depression with water for a total of 200 minutes.
Truth. But I hold to the argument that you wouldn't actually be creating water out of nothing, simply controlling the water in the ambient surroundings and raising it up to create your own lake for 2+ hours.
Semantics, I know. But it's still an awfully fun spell. I think that's why wizards and sorcerers have it at 2 caster levels higher. They're less nature-y than druids who are used to manipulating Mother Earth (Or whatever the planet Golarion is on is called).
Remember, it's a SIXTH level spell. That makes it MORE POWERFUL than the likes of teleport, overland flight, magic jar, plane shift, awaken, raise freaking dead and true seeing.
It's not a sixth level spell, it's a FOURTH level spell. That makes it LESS POWERFUL than the likes of animal growth, awaken, baleful polymorph, control winds, raise dead, scrying, slay living, and true seeing.
Prove otherwise, if you disagree.
Lol. Sorry, I'm accustomed to playing sorcerers.
Bump. I'm curious to know the answer to this too.
Well, an Aquatic Sorcerer's 15th level ability is this.
At 15th level, you raise water as per control water, but no water need be present. This created water is stationary and does not flow out of the area where you create it; it lasts 1 round per sorcerer level and then disappears. At 20th level, the dimensions of the effect are doubled. You may use this ability once per day.
Making me figure that yes, the water to be controlled needs to be there in the first place, while nothing in the spell description makes me think otherwise. I believe the matter of controlled water spilling out and flooding things is meant to be a byproduct of the fact that it is raised above where it would normally be, so if it goes above whatever's containing it, it can also spread further just by gravity.
My interpretation, anyway (with a different ability to provide what I might consider an indication of RAI).
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Are we saying that it cannot create water, like the 0-level spell, but instead can only move water around? this is a 4th or 6th level spell we are talking about, I feel that it can create water (temporary) with no problems.
Create water a level 0 spell creates water that lasts up to 24 hours
Control Water, at most, only raises water for 10 minutes/level
Also note. That a 10'x10'x2' area is about 1,496 gallons of water. By the time a druid gets this spell (at 7th level) he is raising or lowering water by 513,164 gallons (70'x70'x14'), which is just over 75% of an Olympic sized pool (also about the size of your average city water tower). How much water is in the surrounding area again?
Was an answer ever found for this?