i am playing a multiclassed character with 2 levels of mindchemist archetype. i am trying to make him completely a support character, but i still have the ability to throw bombs.
the thing is i don't really see this character as the type of person to make aggressive actions in combat. is there some way for an alchemist (even another archetype) to give up bombs for something else? (especially if it's a support ability i would gain)
i could see maybe the character in question using the timed bomb ability in combat possibly, but flavor-wise it is supposed to be an old man who really isn't good at combat actions. so healing or buffing allies is ok, but no direct aggressive actions.
anyone have any ideas on how to fit bombs into that concept?
Vivisectionist gives up Bombs for Sneak Attack.
And I THINK it's compatible with Mindcehmist.
And have you thought about keeping Bombs but only taking the non-explodey ones? Smoke Bomb, Force Bomb (knocks people down), some of the mind affecting gas bombs, etc.
unfortunately this is a PFS character and vivisectionist is not allowed. also smoke bombs is something i thought about, until i found out they still explode and do damage. but in that vein of thinking terrain changing bombs i think would fit into the concept, but not really bombs that target people or could possibly hurt allies. the idea is that he is too old and frail to reliably throw dangerous items and not hit his allies. a smoke bomb that JUST did smoke would work though, as long as he didn't have it throw it near anyone.
curious why does PFS not allow that archetype?
Precise Bombs.
Bam, don't damage teammates any more.
An Alchemist is not really the class you take if you JUST want to buff people. Like you literally wouldn't even be able to do that much until level 2.
curious why does PFS not allow that archetype?
ask michael brock for a definitive answer, i'm not sure why.
Precise Bombs.
Bam, don't damage teammates any more.
An Alchemist is not really the class you take if you JUST want to buff people. Like you literally wouldn't even be able to do that much until level 2.
but you still hurt people if you miss. the concept is that i would miss a lot and don't want to hurt my allies. i am only taking 2 levels of alchemist for the mindchemist bonus to knowledge checks, i just wanted to do something else with bombs that might be useful. if remote bomb didn't require level 8 i could manage with that and remote detonation.
this build is not really optimized at all and in PFS (especially season 4 scenarios) it really hurts your party if you don't do something at least somewhat useful in combat. i plan to be better when i am level 7 and can have an improved familiar who will actually do things in combat, but until then i am looking for options. (options which still fit within the character concept)
for the record this is supposed to be a cloistered old sage professor from a prestigious taldor university, who is only adventuring to find a lost friend (the lost friend being an indiana jones type of professor who mysteriously went missing). he is completely clueless about adventuring but has tons of book knowledge (level 2 mindchemist alchemist, level 2 archivist bard, all other levels divination wizard)
How about the Smoke Bombs discovery?
I'd be wary about this build, though; it seems like you're setting yourself up for disappointment with such an extreme one-trick pony setup, and you're sacrificing a lot for precious little benefit. Why do you need to split between three classes to play this character concept?
smoke bombs has already been mentioned, and like i said previously, it is a good idea except that smoke bombs still do the normal bomb damage.
the idea is that i start with a 20 int, at 6 level have 2 levels in each class, and 6 ranks in each knowledge skill. so with the bard take 10 i would get 10+6(ranks)+5(int)+5(mindchemist)+3(class skill)+1(bardic knowledge)= 30 on every knowledge skill i ever make guaranteed.
i understand it is a weak build, but i am an aasimar who will have the boon companion, celestial companion, and improved familiar to have a celestial faerie dragon as a familiar at level 7. and with all the various skills and abilities it will have it will be able to do a lot in combat, while i just buff or heal people.
i was just looking for an option other than to not use the throw bombs ability while i am low level.
You could always just...not use bombs.
Because Vivisectionist is literally the only one that gives up Bombs. Just take Infusion as your one Discovery (though with only level 1 spells fat lot of good it would do ya) and never throw bombs.
i plan on getting infusion at level 2. giving out basically potions of shield and enlarge person to allies.
i would like to not use bombs, but i play with a lot of new players and if i don't do some damage i fear people dying because i'm playing a concept character instead of a rules optimized one. i really do like playing him as an over-intelligent, somewhat elitest, clueless old man, though :)
if anyone has read the first tarzan book, i have based him on the old professor in that book.
Why not just go a straight six levels in Archivist? You'd still have a 27 on every Knowledge check, and you could actually, you know, be useful. Even if you do insist on having both the Mindchemist bonus and all Knowledges as class skills, why do you need both Wizard and Bard?
That's the trouble with what you're proposing. It's already not a strong concept, since you're trying to be a one-trick pony in Knowledge checks and are refusing on principle any form of offensive action (or of even being useful in combat for the first six levels, it seems), but you're making it far weaker than it needs to be with this strange decision to take two levels each in three different spellcasting classes for no obvious reason. You're allowed to be good at Knowledge checks without sacrificing every other class feature you could conceivably have.
Like, this isn't even "not rules optimized"; this is what you'd get if you rules-optimized yourself to be of as little use as possible.
wizard for the familiar (that was the original idea, having a familiar that was very useful) i tried witch but didn't like it.
mindchemist for the large bonus to int checks, also indirectly increasing the dc of spells by 2 while under the mutagen, and with the infusion discovery be able to hand out buff potions that are not normally legally allowed. (effectively) potions of shield are awesome for 2 handed fighter melee types, especially when they last 20 rounds. and as far as i know this is the only way to make them. other 'potions' like enlarge person as a standard action are nice too.
archivist bard for the ability to take 10 on knowledge checks, plus the knowledge skill check bonuses from mindchemist pretty much guarantees you will be able to use the Naturalist ability you get that replaces inspire courage. also the ability to cast some small healing spells, and get the trapfinding (magical lore)ability to use the disable device skill you get from alchemist to disable magical traps like a rogue.
i will not just be able to do knowledge checks, i will just be incredibly good at them, and still have useful other skills like perception, disable device, various social skills, UMD, and have a large amount of skills as class skills. it is just combat i am lacking some, until i get 7th level and i effectively get 2 standard actions a turn with a sorcerer familiar who has all the skill ranks that i do.
do you really see that character as being able to do as little as possible?
You could take the tanglefoot bomb discovery, but I'm not sure if it still deals damage. The half-elf alchemist archetype Bramble Brewer lets you deal no damage with tanglefoot bombs and create difficult terrain with them at second level.
Kind of, yeah. You said this was for PFS, which generally ends about level 15 I think?
So think about that. You have NO combat efficacy until level 7. That's fully halfway through the progression at that point.
pretty much guarantees you will be able to use the Naturalist ability you get that replaces inspire courage.
Unless you run out of performance rounds per day. Which isn't unlikely, since you're never going beyond second level of Archivist so you'll be stuck with just 6+Cha rounds of performance per day - and if you're spending 17 points of your 20 point-buy to buy yourself 18 Int at first level, you're not going to have much of anything left over for Cha.
And even then, it's only a +1 bonus that never scales up because you abandon the class immediately.
also the ability to cast some small healing spells,
And you'll be needing them badly.
You're left with just a 3 point-buy to spend on your non-Int stats, you're playing arcane casting classes so you can't wear decent armor (unless you want to abandon spellcasting along with all of your other class features), and you've got a mix of d8 and d6 hit dice and can't spend your favored class bonuses on HP because you're not sticking with one class and you need to spend them on skill ranks instead (see below). What are your Dex and Con looking like? Is your plan for staying alive "be so irrelevant that nobody bothers attacking me"?
and get the trapfinding (magical lore)ability to use the disable device skill you get from alchemist to disable magical traps like a rogue.
i will not just be able to do knowledge checks, i will just be incredibly good at them, and still have useful other skills like perception, disable device, various social skills, UMD, and have a large amount of skills as class skills.
Where exactly are all of these skill ranks coming from? 20 Int gives you 9 skill points per alchemist level, 11 per bard level, and 7 per wizard level. You can increase one of those three numbers (probably wizard) by 1 with your favored class bonus, but you're still not even getting enough ranks to keep all ten Knowledge skills maxed, let alone to be competent in several others. (You said you were aasimar, not human, so the human +1 skill point per level doesn't apply here.) And after dumping your entire point-buy into Int, it's not like your ability scores will be able to make up for your lack of ranks in those other skills.
do you really see that character as being able to do as little as possible?
Yes. You've got a concept that the Archivist was pretty much custom-made to fill, and you're building it by splitting between three classes and ignoring half the class features of each of them but it's okay because after half of your career has passed you'll start having a familiar who can fight for you. You also seem to be wildly overestimating the number of skill ranks you'll have and the ability scores your point-buy will afford you.
Perhaps you should post the full build so we can critique it.
stats are str7 dex14 con12 int20 wis8 cha14
11 rounds of performance a day, which doesn't really matter much, since imo i believe the default bardic performance to be better than the +1 ac/saves versus only 1 type of enemy youre fighting to be that great. it's not why i took the class. it just has some cool synergy.
the skill points will get there, and with just a +2 int headband i would just need 4 ranks in each skill to achieve what i wanted (i think thats what i was actually planned on, i had made this character awhile ago and was working from memory) then after that all skill points will be spread out into whatever skills i need.
i'm not really married to the specific build, but the background story requires him to have a familiar in some way, which is why i chose wizard. the mindchemist gives a huge boost to knowledge checks, and lets allies use my infusions as potions for free. archivist was primarily to get to be able to take 10 on knowledge checks, which i found out recently technically anyone could do if not in combat.
@Roberta Yang: i'm curious, how did you get to 27 on all knowledge checks with just 6 levels of archivist?
i still like the mindchemist though, would just being an archivist bard with 2 levels of mindchemist be significantly better(i know spellcasting-wise it would be), and would there be a better way to get a familiar that way than taking eldritch heritage?
11 rounds of performance a day,
How are you getting 11 rounds of performance per day? You get 4+Cha rounds per day, plus 2 more rounds per level. With only two bard levels and 14 Cha, that's 8 rounds, not 11. Are you using your Int instead of your Cha to calculate performance rounds per day?
the skill points will get there, and with just a +2 int headband i would just need 4 ranks in each skill to achieve what i wanted (i think thats what i was actually planned on, i had made this character awhile ago and was working from memory) then after that all skill points will be spread out into whatever skills i need.
Wait, so you're dipping three different classes to max out your Knowledge skills, and then... ceasing to progress each of them after just the first four ranks? Talk about taking the path of greatest resistance. You're taking the absolute most expensive path to increasing your checks (burning entire levels) and foregoing the cheapest paths (skill ranks, the Breadth of Experience feat, continuing to be a bard).
Even with a +2 Int headband, you only have enough ranks to max one single non-Knowledge skill by fourth level. You're not exactly a skill monkey here.
@Roberta Yang: i'm curious, how did you get to 27 on all knowledge checks with just 6 levels of archivist?
6 ranks + 5 Int + 3 class skill + 3 bardic knowledge + 10 take ten = 27 (28 with the headband). No dipping required, no need to give up being competent at any other class feature - just putting ranks into the skills in question. Between the headband and the favored class bonus, this also lets you max out three other skills, so it's also a better skill-monkey than your build. By eighth level, its Knowledge check is 31 - better than your current 30.
i still like the mindchemist though, would just being an archivist bard with 2 levels of mindchemist be significantly better(i know spellcasting-wise it would be), and would there be a better way to get a familiar that way than taking eldritch heritage?
Mindchemist 2 / Archivist X is certainly better than Mindchemist 2 / Archivist 2 / Liverpool 2 / Wizard X, though I still think a flat Archivist X would work better. As for the familiar: why are you so dead set on having a familiar in the first place? Did the old professor from Tarzan have a celestial faerie dragon? Are you relying on, after spending half your career sitting out of combat, having your fragile familiar do enough fighting to make up for it?
as far as extra performance rounds, 3 extra come from maestro of the society trait.
i was going for 30 as an arbitrary number to aim for since it should give you everything from each knowledge check, and i don't have the skill points to keep them all maxed every level.
the familiar is just because i like them. i always have ever since 1st edition ad&d, and having an improved one is just cool. plus i have a special scenario cert that allows a faerie dragon familiar in pfs, which isn't normally available.
Ok the entire backstory is this.
the tarzan description is basically from the scene in the book where the professor and his colleague are debating highly intellectual topics all while a tiger is stalking up to them to attack them. they both know the tiger is there, but don't want to start running or end their debate becaue it would be 'ungentlemanly' and they think the debate is more important than the tiger. tarzan deals with the tiger once they finally get the idea it might be better to run up a tree. i like the character and wanted to play something like him.
So the story goes that he is very good friends with a fellow professor, this fellow professor being a typical indiana jones type of character and an actual member of the pathfinder society. this pathfinder also has a fully grown faerie dragon familiar that joins him on his pathfinder missions. my character fully enjoys the stories since he never really gets to leave taldor, and leads a simple life. this faerie dragon familiar eventually finds a mate and lays an egg, which everyone is very excited about a new member of the little family.
One day indiana jones and his familiar come up to my character and inform him that they must go on an incredibly important but highly secret mission for the pathfinders, but would like him to take care of the egg until they get back. the problem is that they never return.
so my character who is a genuinely good guy (neutral good) believes that the egg should be with its rightful parent, and that he should take it upon himself to find his friend and return the egg its mother. so he goes to the pathfinders who give him no information at all, so he joins them in hopes of finding his friend that way. the idea is that along the way the egg hatches, becomes his familiar/child, and lots of entertaining roleplaying could be had with an absentminded old fogey and his younger 'teenager' child/dragon who has actually more sense.
so the familiar is pretty important, that's why i am attached to it.
So drop the Mindchemist bit and take a level of Wizard to go with your Archivist.
You can't have it all and still be effective. Figure out your priorities and focus on those.
as far as extra performance rounds, 3 extra come from maestro of the society trait.
i was going for 30 as an arbitrary number to aim for since it should give you everything from each knowledge check, and i don't have the skill points to keep them all maxed every level.
the familiar is just because i like them. i always have ever since 1st edition ad&d, and having an improved one is just cool. plus i have a special scenario cert that allows a faerie dragon familiar in pfs, which isn't normally available.
Ok the entire backstory is this. ** spoiler omitted **...
Why is a faerie dragon not normally available? I thought any familiar listed under the improved familiar feat was allowed as long as you meet the 2 requirements. Another thing I'm curious about, with you dipping into 3 different classes, how are you getting a faerie dragon at 7th lv? The requirements to take a faerie dragon as an improved familiar are to be within 1 step of CG alignment and a caster lv of 7, but if you go 2 bard/2 alchemist/7 wizard you wouldn't get it until 11th lv.
Another way you could get a familiar, is to take skill focus in any knowledge skill, then take the eldritch heritage feat and go with the arcane bloodline.
as far as extra performance rounds, 3 extra come from maestro of the society trait.
i was going for 30 as an arbitrary number to aim for since it should give you everything from each knowledge check, and i don't have the skill points to keep them all maxed every level.
the familiar is just because i like them. i always have ever since 1st edition ad&d, and having an improved one is just cool. plus i have a special scenario cert that allows a faerie dragon familiar in pfs, which isn't normally available.
Ok the entire backstory is this. ** spoiler omitted **...
Why is a faerie dragon not normally available? I thought any familiar listed under the improved familiar feat was allowed as long as you meet the 2 requirements. Another thing I'm curious about, with you dipping into 3 different classes, how are you getting a faerie dragon at 7th lv? The requirements to take a faerie dragon as an improved familiar are to be within 1 step of CG alignment and a caster lv of 7, but if you go 2 bard/2 alchemist/7 wizard you wouldn't get it until 11th lv.
Another way you could get a familiar, is to take skill focus in any knowledge skill, then take the eldritch heritage feat and go with the arcane bloodline.
faerie dragon is not listed as available on the additional resources page. it is from bestiary 3 and is not listed as an available familiar. i assume it might be since the ones from bestiary 2 were put on the list in UM and therefore allowed. as of right now there is a scenario that gives you access, that's the only way.
boon companion was how i still got the familiar at 7th level.
and i have mentioned eldritch heritage, it is just a bit feat heavy for me.
So let me get this correct: You want to play a relatively obscure character from a book that almost nobody has read in 30+ years and you are building it with a huge multi class mess that sacrifices nearly every ability of those classes to be the party load?
IMHO PFS that is pretty selfish thing to do. The modules are designed for 4-6 players (depending on season IIRC) and that means 4-6 players who are built to contribute (and not just generic +1 or +2 to combat actions, or heal, anybody can heal if they have a stupid CLW wand). If a party member dies it is because there was a waste of space in the group. Do you want to be responsible for a player having tens of hours thrown away because you wanted to make a fluff build that only helps people achieve their faction missions? (some of which you can't even help with due to the stupid secrecy clause)
Also, Improved familiar isn't good enough on its own to make your character be very useful in combat. The extra actions are nice, but as soon as it starts contributing to combat most GMs consider them to be fair game, and level 7 is after most of the game time is past. 12th is the cap, and TBH if you are playing a public game its somewhat hard to get a group of 7-11th characters together. Being able to contribute meaningfully at 1-7 is arguably more important than high end ability (and this build hardly is a powerhouse worth waiting for). Death tends to be permanent at low level, while high level play its mildly annoying.
curious why does PFS not allow that archetype?
No no no trust me I play a Vivisectionist in my local game store's weekly game and there is no way you want to see these on the PFS tables.
They're just super gross when played right.
I mean so I've heard because I'm just basically terrible.
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You could take the tanglefoot bomb discovery, but I'm not sure if it still deals damage. The half-elf alchemist archetype Bramble Brewer lets you deal no damage with tanglefoot bombs and create difficult terrain with them at second level.
All bomb discoveries deal damage in addition to their effects unless they say otherwise. So Dispelling Bombs don't deal damage and certain bombs deal less damage than normal. So the default is "Yes it deals damage" unless you have that line that says otherwise.
wizard for the familiar (that was the original idea, having a familiar that was very useful) i tried witch but didn't like it.
mindchemist for the large bonus to int checks, also indirectly increasing the dc of spells by 2 while under the mutagen, and with the infusion discovery be able to hand out buff potions that are not normally legally allowed. (effectively) potions of shield are awesome for 2 handed fighter melee types, especially when they last 20 rounds. and as far as i know this is the only way to make them. other 'potions' like enlarge person as a standard action are nice too.
archivist bard for the ability to take 10 on knowledge checks, plus the knowledge skill check bonuses from mindchemist pretty much guarantees you will be able to use the Naturalist ability you get that replaces inspire courage. also the ability to cast some small healing spells, and get the trapfinding (magical lore)ability to use the disable device skill you get from alchemist to disable magical traps like a rogue.
i will not just be able to do knowledge checks, i will just be incredibly good at them, and still have useful other skills like perception, disable device, various social skills, UMD, and have a large amount of skills as class skills. it is just combat i am lacking some, until i get 7th level and i effectively get 2 standard actions a turn with a sorcerer familiar who has all the skill ranks that i do.
do you really see that character as being able to do as little as possible?
Note that you are basiclly playing a weak wizard. You are 4 caster level behind the curve wich means when other Wizard is casting cone of cold you now are just casting fire ball.
How many mod will you have to carried or draged because your PC can not hold this own wieght. ie to get where he works?
How many mod dose PC have till they reach Max level?
Why not build a Bard/lore maser or Wizard Lore master?
It sound like to me you more suck level in this build than cool levels
It not that you have Bomds that is bad in this build it that they only do 1d6+int and never get better. Wich means they not much better than any one throwing Vial fire or acid.
The enlarge person is cool but any Alchemist, witch, Wizard, Sorcerer, Magus can do it as well. The Shield spell that you pass out is great but only last one fight for max of 4 PC cause that all Extracts with your int you can do per day. Or all the fights for one PC.
Skills you will have 8 form Alchemist, 12 form Bard, and 14 form wizard + INTx11 or 34+(intx11). Witch mean you will be able to max 3+int skill per level. This is not the skill guy you think it is. He is a dabler He know alot stuff but not real well.
Bottom line go to 2 class not 3 and this should work. Be be hind 1 level or 2 sure but 4 no way.
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curious why does PFS not allow that archetype?No no no trust me I play a Vivisectionist in my local game store's weekly game and there is no way you want to see these on the PFS tables.
They're just super gross when played right.
I mean so I've heard because I'm just basically terrible.
Real answer is probably "Anthropomorphic Animal"
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Real answer is probably "Anthropomorphic Animal"curious why does PFS not allow that archetype?No no no trust me I play a Vivisectionist in my local game store's weekly game and there is no way you want to see these on the PFS tables.
They're just super gross when played right.
I mean so I've heard because I'm just basically terrible.
So, Furries are the answer?
No. Why?
Google "Furry Guro", and find out.
Yeah man my GM hates it when I'm all like hey bro I'm going to rock out for like 2 hours and cut up on the Ranger's kitty so it can walk around for like an hour and use a wand or drink tea or whatever.
Or it could be that pumping out like eighty or ninety points of damage in a round at level four on the big bad is just super super gross.
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Yeah man my GM hates it when I'm all like hey bro I'm going to rock out for like 2 hours and cut up on the Ranger's kitty so it can walk around for like an hour and use a wand or drink tea or whatever.Or it could be that pumping out like eighty or ninety points of damage in a round at level four on the big bad is just super super gross.
You don't need to be a Vivisectionist to be weird and gross.
Take my old Mindchemist PC:
The character, Shivkah Magalla, is a core tiefling, with one of the alternate abilities, as instead of the darkness ability, a small size. This character was a hermaphrodite.
Raised as food for Grell in Sekamina as a chooser learned secrets of Grell alchemy 4690yr to 4695yr
Escaped to Bloodcove after Adventurers slay grell, the Beast of Bloodcove, an immense froghemoth,
claims 204 victims over the course of a record hot summer before it is finally slain by a dozen heroes. 4696yr
Found work with Bloodcove militia, under The Grand Admiral of the Fever Sea, Harthwik Barzoni. 4698yr
Found by crusader of Iomedae Valeria Albus, joined church. 4699yr
Moved to Mendev to join the crusades against the worldwound and did work as doctor and mortician in the Cruciform Cathedral Church in Nerosyan: the Diamond of the North. 4699yr to 4706yr
Crusader Valeria Albus dies in demon raid. 4706yr
Moved to Nex to assist with establishing a church. 4708yr
She looked something like this.
Her/his personality could be described as similar to Golum, if Golum was a reeeally devout Southern Baptist, and high on Ecstasy all the time.
No no no no
Man, I don't mean like all phlegmy or nasty or whatever.
Vivisectionists are outlawed because it's super easy to build one that is just basically a woodchipper in a sassy outfit.
It's no fun for the other players when you're just going buck wild and killing everything yourself.
The only reason I even use one in my LGS game is that the GM is just basically like "bring it, doggies" and we're all like "Oh, it's totally been broughten".
Mixing maximum Sneak Attack damage with a class that gets super-strong full-bab natural attacks up the goonch is just something that is gross as all get-out.
Now don't get me wrong, they're sorta glass cannons but if you start mixing in Barbarian dips and things like Spontaneous Healing, Lingering Spirit, etc...well, they just won't die.
Build an alchemist to deal damage and you will find that 18 starting strength + feral mutagen + sneak attack + extracts = tons of damage. Add in the fact they are still a good skill monkey and have good saves for the most part, and you can see why they could dominate the generally low powered skill focused PFS modules.
I think I will keep my original build. i didn't ask for optimization, i asked for other choices for alchemist bombs that would be more fitting for the concept. i have 9 other PFS characters that are optimized, and one of the reasons i wanted to make this character is for a challenge.
for those of you worried about a character not pulling his weight in a PFS scenario, don't worry. I am pretty clever at playing this game.
i do not find PFS scenarios challenging at all. even season 4. yes season 4 scenarios are hardER but they are not HARD. when myself and 2 or 3 other people at the table are very good at making optimized characters we almost always crush the enemies put against us, often before enemies get a turn. i wanted this character to have more of a challenge, and maybe do some oddball things.
even as it stands he still has a DC 19 grease spell as a wizard, which is useful, not to mention other spells which will be dc 18 as level 1 spells. and i never claimed i wouldn't be doing offense. i claimed i wouldn't be throwing bombs. i was hoping there were some weird obscure positive energy bombs that would harm undead and/or heal allies. that would have been perfect, but i guess there isn't.
anyway thanks for the help.