DMPC or no DMPC?

[DrDeth]

Great, and as you said, experiences differ, groups differ. But, what I want to make sure the various DM’s here know is that DMPCs are often (but not always) resented by the players. And, as such the DM should consider this when inserting one, and discuss the issue with his/her players. Also, *IF you must run one, do follow the guidelines given here.

[Charlie Bell]

That's the way my buddy's been handling the caravan NPCs in Jade Regent. They'll usually come with us if we ask, and he just hands us the stat block for one of us to run. That's a good solution to help make sure the NPCs don't become the focus of the action.

[NobodysHome]

My experience: I am running a GMPC barbarian for RotRL because the party consisted of a paladin, a bard, and a sorcerer, and they were far more interested in roleplaying than combat, so they wanted someone to soak up hits.

The barbarian proceeded to outshine all of them in combat for many levels.

He was then brutally killed.

The party, with no obligations to anyone, proceeded to pay out of their own funds for a full resurrection. I had no plans to bring him back; I was just as happy to have him dead and let them play a 3-player game, but they wanted him back.

So I will refute the statement that players always resent GMPCs, especially if the GMPCs outshine them in combat. (Which is honestly downright embarrassing, but they wanted a barbarian, so I built one for them.)

[Rynjin]

Papa-DRB wrote:

Rynjin wrote:

Our GM rolled up a Barbarian because our party consisted of a Monk, Druid, Sorcerer, Bard, Rogue, and Cleric, so we didn't really have any fighty guys at low levels and we kinda needed to survive or the whole campaign would fall apart pretty much (a major flaw in Souls for Smuggler's Shiv IMO).

As pres said, that is not a DMPC issue, it comes up with PCs also.

For your situation, and I am assuming your are playing the Serpent Skull AP, and are near the end of book 2. ** spoiler omitted **

-- david
papa.drb

Yes. We just finished Racing to Ruin last session.

Actual Spoilers, 'kay?:

Our ire reached a critical peak versus Issilar, the Wizard. Nobody could hit him except on a 19 or 20 because his AC was through the roof, and none of the casters were making their DC 21 caster level check for his spell resistance. Naturally, after about two rounds of us flailing around at each other (Issilar blew both of his "big money" spells, Hold Person and Dominate Person on me, the guy with +10 Will save. I looked him up on the NPC database later to see what they were.) I decided "Well his CMD can't be that high" and I grappled him, after which his AC became hittable by the Barbarian and the Bard. Problem was, my AC was also hittable by them and they kept rolling badly on the percentile rolls to avoid hitting me. After getting hit by an arrow, a 30+ damage greatsword strike, and a spear, I was righteously pissed. But okay, fine, s+*% happens. I pin the guy and prepare to tie him up next round so we can coup de grace him or do whatever we want. Barbarian tries to hit him, crits, rolls damage (after spending 3 charges from his Devastation Gauntlets) and comes up with somewhere around 92 damage. Then the GM remembers he hadn't rolled to see WHO he hit and ends up with a 39. 50 and above misses me.

Basically because the GM can't keep his sword in his scabbard when the battle would probably be over NEXT TURN (my turn is right after the Barb's), with no danger to anyone, he had to fudge some dice to keep from chopping me in half. It pisses me off twofold because for the past 3 sessions all the boss monsters have been crit to death by this damn Barbarian, even when it was made abundantly clear that we COULD have handled them had he not been there.

Maybe I'm being petty but I and a few of the other players are getting tired of it. The Cleric and the Barbarian are a package deal (they're brothers) but I couldn't honestly care less at this point. I'm multiclassing Alchemist in a couple of levels, I can make some potions.

[Tacticslion]

EDITED for clarity, 'cause, ugh.

Yeah, you're describing two problems at once.

First, there's the problem with the barbarian in general. I've... actually seen a lot of similar complaints about barbs on these forums.

Second, there's the problem with your particular GM and his style. Talk. Work it out. Explain the issue. It may help!

[Funky Badger]

DrDeth wrote:

Great, and as you said, experiences differ, groups differ. But, what I want to make sure the various DM’s here know is that DMPCs are often (but not always) resented by the players. And, as such the DM should consider this when inserting one, and discuss the issue with his/her players. Also, *IF you must run one, do follow the guidelines given here.

You're talking about a game I hardly even recognise.

"Don't let your NPCs take over the group" is, what, rule 3 or 4 in How to be a Good GM.

[DrDeth]

NobodysHome wrote:

The party, with no obligations to anyone, proceeded to pay out of their own funds for a full resurrection. I had no plans to bring him back; I was just as happy to have him dead and let them play a 3-player game, but they wanted him back.

For years, we -with no obligations to anyone- bought (out of our own funds) DrPepper & Cheetos for one of our better DM's. Reason? We liked to keep the DM happy.

[Poldaran]

Tels wrote:

Plus, it's a really rewarding experience when you see the players genuinely concerned about a GMPC and they go out of their way to ensure the characters safety.

Gods yes. That kind of thing happening is probably going to be the thing that will stick with me most when remembering my current campaign.

Some background on how I run GMPCs in current campaign that might be halfway relevant to discussion as a whole because I feel like posting it:

Spoiler:

I run half a dozen "GMPCs" in my current campaign. They're more than NPCs, but at the same time, less than players. I guess, if I had to classify them, they're mostly GM controlled cohorts, but they have their own motivations and character to them. I switch them out on a session by session basis(each session is a stand-alone adventure that is part of a greater narrative). I also use them as narrative tools by using their perspectives for supplementary materials, like the journal the bard writes which fleshes out what's going on between adventures.

Sometimes, I'll have the players run them in combat(except for the one who is hiding the fact that she's a Dragon Disciple which is a plot point because she's the descendent of a dragon whose blood is needed to fuel an evil spell to resurrect the Sealed Evil in a Can), but outside of combat they're completely mine to control. And ultimately, I'm as invested in their character development as much as one might be in any PC, but I do my best to keep them out of the spotlight unless I'm using one as a Macguffin or other quest driving tool.

And the moment, again because I felt like posting it because I'm bored at work and this is a great excuse to kill some time:

Spoiler:

One of the GMPCs is a paladin. A member of the multi-faith order one of the PCs. The two of them have known eachother for years.

I needed a villain to fit into a small gap between the BBEG's lieutenants where I was going to be stuck running a side mission as filler until they leveled to the point of being able to take on the next lieutenant. I saw this hole about 6 player levels before I needed it, so I started setting it up.

Cut to the day where the players are using their realization that the list of macguffins the enemy is seeking for a ritual contains mostly skymetals. They search out a small lode of one such metal and find evidence that the enemy is already there. So, at a suggestion from the aforementioned GMPC, they split up. She takes another GMPC and a number of low level NPC paladins to head around to the back and surround the bad guys.

Upon reaching the enemy leader, the second GMPC also arrives, telling the party that the NPC paladins were all killed and the other GMPC has been taken prisoner by a Dimensional Shambler, who is blocked from teleportation by the strange magic field within the caves. The enemy leader reveals that, to ensure his escape, he also sent 200+ orcs to ambush and slaughter a nearby village and rushes out a third entrance.

I had set it up to see what the PCs would do. I wanted to know if they'd take the tactically most sound decision(go after the general and save countless lives that his leadership would cost in the long run), the most pressing "save people" one, or the emotional attachment to a single character one.

I was prepared for all three. If they went with either of the first two, the captured paladin would indeed be taken away and tortured until she came back broken, becoming a new villain for them later. If they opted to save her, then she would be twisted by her experience, the fear of what almost happened and anger at the loss of so many villagers just to save her one life. She would have become a Hell Knight(mechanically, not fluff), becoming an extremist until the point where she believed that the PCs needed to be destroyed for the good of all.

Instead, they opted to do something I hadn't planned for(it's obvious in hindsight, but I hadn't expected it). They split the party at the insistence of the PC paladin. The two casters(+GMPC messenger) went to stop the orcish marauders while the other two went after the GMPC paladin. Out of character, I told them it was suicide. There was almost no chance of saving her with a split party.

They tried anyway. And died horribly(though they did better than I expected). I was so moved by it that I had them resurrected at no cost and changed her outcome as well. Now, instead of being tortured and coming back as a villain, she slays the wounded Dimensional Shambler and begins a trek back across planes(ending up in the far reaches of the cosmos and only returning while they still live because she finds a plane where time flows differently). Sure, she still returned warped(she's now a Dark Tapestry Oracle who has renounced her faith and fused with an entity from beyond the stars...though the PCs don't know that last part), but she came back as a friend. A friend with a personality that can only be described as some combination of Heath Ledger's Joker, Pinkie Pie and Deadpool, but a friend nonetheless.

[Rynjin]

Quote:

a personality that can only be described as some combination of Heath Ledger's Joker, Pinkie Pie and Deadpool

What in the name of Saxton Hale's glorious chest hair have you created.

[Blueluck]

Darkwolf117 wrote:

Most of my experience with DMPC's is in situations where we would switch DM's here and there, so it doesn't generally seem too intrusive in that regard. . .

I think that might constitute the best time for a DMPC - when everyone is a player first, and a DM only sometimes.

[Icyshadow]

mplindustries wrote:

An NPC that assists the party is perfectly acceptable. A GMPC never is.

Then I must have been doing it wrong despite the party having fun while a DMPC was with them.

[Irontruth]

Rynjin wrote:

Quote:

a personality that can only be described as some combination of Heath Ledger's Joker, Pinkie Pie and Deadpool

What in the name of Saxton Hale's glorious chest hair have you created.

Such an amalgam isn't that crazy of an idea.

Pinkie Pie does the Joker's "why so serious?" speech.

Deadpool talking to Pinkie Pie.

In many ways, a very natural fit... though definitely awesome.

[Poldaran]

Rynjin wrote:

Quote:

a personality that can only be described as some combination of Heath Ledger's Joker, Pinkie Pie and Deadpool

What in the name of Saxton Hale's glorious chest hair have you created.

I wish I could say I've managed to consistently have all three personalities out at once, but I've mostly been able to manage two at a time. The fun part is figuring out which two it is at the time.

Edit: I'm gonna have to watch those videos when I get home. They sound awesome.

[3.5 Loyalist]

I dm for small parties, so they usually have dmpcs. Entirely up to them who they take, I more consider them aiding npcs that don't overshadow the pcs.

[3.5 Loyalist]

Icyshadow wrote:

mplindustries wrote:

An NPC that assists the party is perfectly acceptable. A GMPC never is.

Then I must have been doing it wrong despite the party having fun while a DMPC was with them.

Yeah, never is a big claim. The good news about dmpcs is they can really bond with the players, and be individual characters, plot hooks and the like. Some people also don't want to be the centre of attention all the time (one player I knew was tired of the skyrim hero formula). They wanted to be more background, move out to have some fun in dungeons and combats.

Reactive dmpcs work well to not take too much of the attention.

[DrDeth]

Icyshadow wrote:

mplindustries wrote:

An NPC that assists the party is perfectly acceptable. A GMPC never is.

Then I must have been doing it wrong despite the party having fun while a DMPC was with them.

You can do a LOT of things wrong and the game can still be fun. (I know, I have done them). Most players, as long as the DMPC is not terrible, will just put up with it as a minor peccadillo.