Read the last sentence of this paragraph if the answer is yes then the rest does not apply. (links are provided at the bottom)
So I was looking at carrying capacity today and I noticed that drag is under carrying capacity. This leads me to wonder something. A large quadruped with 23 str. under the effects of ant haul would be able to comfortably carry 1,800 lb. Assuming that ant haul applies to all aspects of carrying capacity then they would also be able to drag 9,000 lb (18,000 lb under favorable conditions). If this is true then it is not that unreasonable for a quadruped with a number of say chains or some strong rope around them and say... a build to actually damage if not pull down a building... It occurs to me that this use of ant haul does not work but it would be funny if it did. I am felling doubtful about this use because it leaves greater implications like pushing on things (no rope required). Would I be correct in assuming that ant haul applies strictly to objects on the the subject and not any of the following: objects pulled, pushed, or lifted?
Reasons why it working would make me laugh.
GM: The door cannot be opened by physical means.
PC: I push on the surrounding wall with 18,000 lb of force
GM: ...well i guess the wall falls down
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alignment-description/carrying-capacity
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/ant-haul
From Ant Haul "This does not affect the creature's actual Strength in any way, merely the amount of material it can carry while benefiting from this spell."
All you can do is carry more, it does not get you extra damage or a new way to inflict damage.
I am aware that it is not intend to do damage, but the text its self states that it affects carrying capacity, of which dragging is a part of. This in turn can cause damage, at least when you think about physical reality of trying to pull some objects. the question here is if ant haul affects pull, push and lift. It does not make a difference if the spell its self is supposed to do damage. The question then goes to the GM as to whether or not it actually damages the object by begging pulled. It would be odd for an object picked up and dropped from 10 ft to take no damage. Of course with that said an object that is a living creature is another story.
Dragging 18,000 pounds is not the same as 18,000 pounds of force.
^true
I wonder if this thread could be called trolling but I really would like to know the answer :D.
Some one just tell me that you cant apply this spell to pulling, pushing and lifting so this can be over with. (btw pushing is not listed but if it is not assumed then that would just be odd). Also if you were to say that it applies only to movable objects kind of works because most of the time people don't walk up to a 4 ton bolder and ask to move it... the idea would at least make since.
-cause a feel like noting this
23 str., quadruped, ant haul, drag
200 lb. x3 600 lb. x3 1,800 lb x10 18,000 (<-optimum terrain) I am not using the heaviest possible load that would multiply this by another x3 assuming you can stack "heavy load" in addition to this.
To be noted I am only talking about using this against structures not living beings. But the implications do move that far if you some how get a rope around it...
An object weighing 18,000 moving at 5 ft. per second (Ideal conditions and assuming your using the encumbered deduction to land speed from the capacity chart, along with 6 seconds a round) would have a momentum of 90,000 (momentum is equal to mass times velocity), not force and since a wall doesn't move you would need to have the ability to move the whole structure to do anything, which in turn could cause damage. To be noted it is safe to assume that you can apply 18,000 lb of horizontal weight on a wall if you can move something of that size anyway (Ideal conditions). The most common structure of this kind of society would be wood, mud brick, or worse meaning it doesn't weigh to much (comparatively to stone and fortified) even if the structure did have stone in it. Another note most structures are not a fortified structure and would not be designed to hold a horizontal load and would become damaged if they did.
Ross is correct, dragging 18,000 pounds is not the same as 18,000 pounds of force. Just as it doesn't require 18,000 pounds of force to drag 18,000 pounds, it doesn't require 18,000 pounds of force to STOP 18,000 pounds being dragged.
Your base assumptions are flawed.
However, to address your question with the str in question, would 1,800 pounds of force pull down a wall?
Well, probably. Unless the wall was fortified. A simple stone wall with normal mortar between the stones will not require much lateral force to knock it down. That's why stone and brick buildings are notoriously dangerous in earthquakes.
On the other hand, most of the sorts of walls that you would want to pull down this way will be castle walls or fortifications, and they will be fortified and so probably will not be that easy to pull down.
So I trust Adamantine Dragon seen him around and he knows what is up and I don't :D. Can I take it that by 1,800 lb you mean objects that are structures for the purposes of this game cannot be dragged?
I would like to say a few things about the relationship between momentum and force.
18,000 lb. object moving at 5 ft. a second requires more than just looking at it to stop it...
If some one wanted to stop an object moving with a momentum of 90,000, which is the correct value(assuming the object is 18,000 lb and the object is moving at 5 ft sec{this also assumes the game has already accounted for other external variables}), they would need to apply an equal amount of force (in a split second) or force over time to slow it to a stop. So yes you need 90,000 lb or force... momentum is equal to force over time. So basically their is nearly a direct relationship between the two, time being the key factor. momentum differs from force in that force is accelerating momentum is moving at a constant speed... Equations with regards to this topic would be under impulse.
Ant haul does not say it negates the weight of an object being moved so weight applies to momentum.
Prometheus, here is what I understood you to be saying.
Ant Haul increases the ability to drag loads. If you use ant haul and then attempt to pull down a door or a wall, then you would be able to apply the hauling force to the wall.
In that case the amount of force that can be applied is the 1,800 pounds worth, if you tie the rope directly to the wall.
Momentum only came into this because you argued that a moving 18,000 pound object would have 90,000 (? units?) of momentum.
If you are suggesting that the 18,000 pounds "dragged" is actually being "pushed" and pushed at that speed directly into the wall, then the idea of momentum has some merit, academically at least. But momentum is not force.
Since your initial title to this was "who needs dynamite?" it might actually be easier and more instructive to look at this from a Kinetic Energy perspective. What is the kinetic energy of an 18,000 "pound" mass moving at 5 ft/sec? It is easier to work with metric units so let's convert that to 8165 kg and 1.5 m/sec. The kinetic energy would then be 18,371 kg-m^2/sec^2 or 18,371 Joules. A gram of dynamite (by international agreement) releases 4,184 Joules of energy. So your colliding mass would be the equivalent of about 4 grams of TNT. Or about 1/7 of an ounce.
Now, do you think 1/7 of an ounce of TNT will knock down your average reinforced stone castle wall?
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You're nodwick. Just accept the fact that you can't move the gate until you've gotten it loose and decide to take it home for treasure.
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I <3 you dragon lol
Isn't dragging 5ft. per _round_? That's .8 ft/s
I don't think Ant Haul allows you to drag more weight. After all the spell says you can carry more. If you drag something you don't carry it.
The carrying capacity table in the PRD ends at Heavy Load, with dragging being only described in text. I think the spell is only intended for situations where you actually have the weight on yourself (so basically it lightens the weight of everything on your body and in your arms).
Don't apply science to magic. One or the other must yield, or break.
An 18,000 lb. object being dragged will stop almost immediately on level terrain when released from the force dragging it.
It also has the respective levels of inertia and friction waiting to stop it.
Unless you put it on ice or wheels, of course. Where's my bucket and my sorcerer with ray of frost?
So I trust Adamantine Dragon seen him around and he knows what is up and I don't :D. Can I take it that by 1,800 lb you mean objects that are structures for the purposes of this game cannot be dragged?
I would like to say a few things about the relationship between momentum and force.
18,000 lb. object moving at 5 ft. a second requires more than just looking at it to stop it...
If some one wanted to stop an object moving with a momentum of 90,000, which is the correct value(assuming the object is 18,000 lb and the object is moving at 5 ft sec{this also assumes the game has already accounted for other external variables}), they would need to apply an equal amount of force (in a split second) or force over time to slow it to a stop. So yes you need 90,000 lb or force... momentum is equal to force over time. So basically their is nearly a direct relationship between the two, time being the key factor. momentum differs from force in that force is accelerating momentum is moving at a constant speed... Equations with regards to this topic would be under impulse.Ant haul does not say it negates the weight of an object being moved so weight applies to momentum.