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... I need a guard. Please be at this place... to gank me...I haven't read the entire thread, but this jumped out at me.
Ryan has made it explicitly clear that using Contracts to lure people out in order to kill them will be considered Griefing, and will be dealt with swiftly and harshly.
Seems a smart tactic to me ;)
Goblin Squad Member
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Hrm, the idea of a separate loot table sounds terrible. =) This would take away from the strategy and meaningful nature of actions, imo.
The ideas that GW have floated that a certain amount/type of items are lootable sound like a decent medium. You aren't completely stripped, but you do need to make real strategic choices.
Also, it seems like a lot of these conversations are coming from the standpoint of single-player experience, which this won't be. The basic assumption is player interaction, so if you plan to be a loner 100% all of the time, then, yea, you will definitely run into trouble if you don't plan well.
But if we consider the basic assumption, you will have assistance, and if you cannot save yourself on the spot, then we have a meaningful and exciting retrieval/revenge quest in the making that has the potential to involve a number players. I imagine players will be much more interested and invested in a quest to retrieve an item(s) in this scenario moreso than a quest to camp an item spawn.
I hope these conversations not only deal with the issues associated with past PvP situations, but also the potential, and really cool possibilities.
Well, the purpose of discussing things is to hash these things out. You consider separate loot tables a bad idea, others disagree. I don't know if it is doable, but the point has been raised that the looting of personal possessions is a major irritant to those of us who dislike PvP. Now, we the folks who have reservations have been asked to engage and help the community shape its rules. Here we are. The rules are obviously not set yet, so our opinions are part of the process
As for PFO being only a group effort, why does it have to? It certainly would cool my enthusiasm if this was the case. I don't LIKE big associations, I find guild politics tiresome, and the obligations of being in such a group makes the game feel like a second job IMO. I want to play, maybe trade and craft a bit, explore a dungeon and have some fun. I'm willing to put up with PvP, but I will make damned sure that my opinion on gank looters is known. If you feel the need to kill my character, fine, but adding greed into the mix will encourage the actions that the community assiduously swears it wants to avoid.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Also, it seems like a lot of these conversations are coming from the standpoint of single-player experience, which this won't be. The basic assumption is player interaction, so if you plan to be a loner 100% all of the time, then, yea, you will definitely run into trouble if you don't plan well.
Not everyone views it this way. For many it's about a persistant, changing, vibrant world where they do interact with other people, sometimes regularly, sometimes not, but interaction does not necessitate "ability to kill and loot on sight"
For me, I'm an RPer, I create a character that has a distinct personality, behaves in certain ways, interacts with people in certain ways. None of that requires involvement in a guild or part of a particular team, kingdom or settlement. The influence of players in their abilitiy to build these towns and alliances and kingdoms can, however dramatically influence the depth of these interactions, yet none of them require the ability for people to kill me unprovoked in the wilderness or take my stuff.
I'm fine with the vision as it is, I don't have a problem with losing SOME of my stuff, it'll be inconvenient, but I think death should be. I don't want to get into the mindset I got into in things like SWTOR where I'm just zerging mindlessly because I'm trying to do something.
I'm motivated by the promise of something UO-like in it's original form, but more sophisticated, even then, there was open PvP, but I didn't participate, I usually just tried to run and died mostly. Lost some very cool stuff that way, but I didn't have any particularly terrible experiences (well there was one or two, years later) but I know people that DID have really horrible experiences.
So my point is that there are many many motivations for people to play a game like this.
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... I need a guard. Please be at this place... to gank me...I haven't read the entire thread, but this jumped out at me.
Ryan has made it explicitly clear that using Contracts to lure people out in order to kill them will be considered Griefing, and will be dealt with swiftly and harshly.
I'm not talking about that at all. I am saying that the act of setting up a contract like that is broadcasting to the entire population that you are doing something at that place and time that is worthwhile to attempt to steal.
Setting up a contract requesting a guard would be like the bank posting it's armored car schedule on the door.
If showing up at the caravan that requested a guard to rob it instead of guard is griefing, then everyone will just set up a guard contract and use that as insurance.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am saying that the act of setting up a contract like that is broadcasting to the entire population that you are doing something at that place and time that is worthwhile to attempt to steal.
I may be wrong, but I believe you have to accept the Contract before you learn anything more than the time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... I need a guard. Please be at this place... to gank me...I haven't read the entire thread, but this jumped out at me.
Ryan has made it explicitly clear that using Contracts to lure people out in order to kill them will be considered Griefing, and will be dealt with swiftly and harshly.
I'm not talking about that at all. I am saying that the act of setting up a contract like that is broadcasting to the entire population that you are doing something at that place and time that is worthwhile to attempt to steal.
Setting up a contract requesting a guard would be like the bank posting it's armored car schedule on the door.
If showing up at the caravan that requested a guard to rob it instead of guard is griefing, then everyone will just set up a guard contract and use that as insurance.
But in the end it is creating player contact and content!
If you (as an example) have a full +5 armor set, sword and a box of gold to move, you request say 20 guarsd (and I have no idea how it will be posted) It might indeed attract people with a nefarious thought in their mind to lay an ambush with say 30+ people.
Now there can be 2 results:
1. The ambush fails, the ambushers lose half their men, their gear and now have to re-gear their fallen comraders. the guards who won now have extra loot next to their fee. and will be drinking a pint more in the local tavern. Also their rep will go up since you will recommend them to another.
2. Ambush succeeds, the ambushers run off with your gear and cackle in an evil manical way while going somewhere to divide the loot. Meanwhile the guards, wounded in their pride, are now setting up a hunting party to recover the lost items. Wether they succeed or not it will mean that their reputation will get a gnaw since word will spread that they weren't well prepared.
Think big with this and you can do alot of things!
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I am with Psyblade, I could see the outcome being pretty fun either way.
Fun for all except the merchant moving their goods. Here we come to the point that has come up several times "I'm not paying to be someone else's content"
For me personally, yeah, it adds something, a problem to overcome. Do you hire a company to escort you and attract attention? Or do you go it alone and try for the fast and secretive? Stay off the main roads and take a winding, less travelled road? Or take the main way and hope for the best?
Put bounties out on the brigands and try again? So that there's even more incentive to kill them?
Or try subterfuge and hire an escort for a not so valuable cargo while secretly transferring something valuable by other means?
It all has possibilities. But for other people, none of that holds any appeal at all, and I think it's important to recognise that not everyone enjoys the same scenarios.
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Goblin Squad Member
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From Goblinworks Blog: Signed... in Blood:
If you set up a contract for the purpose of luring someone into an ambush, we'll consider that griefing. Don't do it. It causes more problems than whatever fun you might get out of making it happen.The metagame solution to this problem is to simply say that such schemes are violations of the code of conduct for the game and will not be tolerated. Rapid and effective enforcement of such a policy will substantially reduce the number of people who try it.Just to clarify, this won't be the actual policy, right? You were only citing an example?
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I am saying that the act of setting up a contract like that is broadcasting to the entire population that you are doing something at that place and time that is worthwhile to attempt to steal.I may be wrong, but I believe you have to accept the Contract before you learn anything more than the time.
OK, I accept the contract, tell my friends, and then we rob it in the wilderness.
That's still not griefing. It's being a lying scum-sucker.
I believe what Ryan is referring to, Nihimon, is setting up a contract saying there's a caravan that needs guarding, and then when the time comes instead of a caravan, there's a huge group of PVPers waiting to kill people and take their stuff. That's what "luring people out to kill them with a contract." would mean to me.
Edit: And also what your quote says. "Luring people into an ambush" is bad. It says nothing about using information gained from a contract to *set up* an ambush.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am with Psyblade, I could see the outcome being pretty fun either way.Fun for all except the merchant moving their goods. Here we come to the point that has come up several times "I'm not paying to be someone else's content"
For me personally, yeah, it adds something, a problem to overcome. Do you hire a company to escort you and attract attention? Or do you go it alone and try for the fast and secretive? Stay off the main roads and take a winding, less travelled road? Or take the main way and hope for the best?
Put bounties out on the brigands and try again? So that there's even more incentive to kill them?
Or try subterfuge and hire an escort for a not so valuable cargo while secretly transferring something valuable by other means?
It all has possibilities. But for other people, none of that holds any appeal at all, and I think it's important to recognise that not everyone enjoys the same scenarios.
Okay, so let's put it in RPG terms, how would you handle it then? How would you in a PnP RPG handle the things? Don't get me wrong, I don't want to pick a fight. But I feel what you want is a single player game with content you can handle, or just a themepark MMO.
We are handing out options to people who are afraid to lose items with solutions. We tell people to try the game and see how it feels and what happens and how you will be protected. I know that if you were in my charter and you had those items to be moved, the charter would step up and help you move them to where you want. Or if you died would help you get your gear back (if not in stock already so you could just grab it) etc.
However, if you only want to play lonewolf and not willing to interact with other people in regards of a charter or the game. I will never be able to convince you then to widen your horizon and try something new, and that is a shame :(
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Robb Smith,
When I originally read Ryan's quote, I took him to mean that they wanted the Contract system to not be used as a means of luring people into ambushes, but perhaps you're right. Perhaps there's a significant difference between "setting up" a contract for the purpose of luring someone into an ambush, and "accepting" a contract for the purpose of luring someone into an ambush.
Perhaps Ryan will drop by and clarify the situation.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, the purpose of discussing things is to hash these things out. You consider separate loot tables a bad idea, others disagree. I don't know if it is doable, but the point has been raised that the looting of personal possessions is a major irritant to those of us who dislike PvP. Now, we the folks who have reservations have been asked to engage and help the community shape its rules. Here we are. The rules are obviously not set yet, so our opinions are part of the process
As for PFO being only a group effort, why does it have to? It certainly would cool my enthusiasm if this was the case. I don't LIKE big associations, I find guild politics tiresome, and the obligations of being in such a group makes the game feel like a second job IMO. I want to play, maybe trade and craft a bit, explore a dungeon and have some...
- Agreed. I believe all opinions at this point are part of the process. I'm offering my thoughts on why I don't think that is a good idea, and that GW has offered ideas with regard to this concern that seem like a happy medium. How do you feel about the ideas that GW has offered with regard to this very issue?
- The foundation of the game is meaningful player interaction. It doesn't have to be, but that is what it is. It isn't a single- or -multi player game, and if it was there we need to be a completely different design. On the one hand it sounds like you are uninterested in the unique design of PFO, on the other hand it seems to me that you will be able to trade/craft and explore a dungeon, etc in PFO, just as long as you are okay that you will be working with other players while doing those things.
We all have to agree on the basic design of the game if we are going to have meaningful conversations about the ruleset for that design.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am with Psyblade, I could see the outcome being pretty fun either way.Fun for all except the merchant moving their goods. Here we come to the point that has come up several times "I'm not paying to be someone else's content"
For me personally, yeah, it adds something, a problem to overcome. Do you hire a company to escort you and attract attention? Or do you go it alone and try for the fast and secretive? Stay off the main roads and take a winding, less travelled road? Or take the main way and hope for the best?
Put bounties out on the brigands and try again? So that there's even more incentive to kill them?
Or try subterfuge and hire an escort for a not so valuable cargo while secretly transferring something valuable by other means?
It all has possibilities. But for other people, none of that holds any appeal at all, and I think it's important to recognise that not everyone enjoys the same scenarios.
It sounds like those people want a themepark style game. Sandbox is about choice, and the merchants would have plenty of choice. If they want to just auto transport some goods to another city, might as well play Train Simulator.
You can not and will not make every person or group happy with any game that is made. If you make a game, you identify your market and make the game for that market. Everything I have read here on this site doesn't make it sound like this game is being designed specifically for the themepark fans. The whole point of taking those goods and selling them somewhere else is to make a greater profit then selling them where you made them. Why are they worth more else where? Probably because they are harder to get there or there are more people who would use them there. Why are they harder to get? Because there must be some risk or some difficulty in getting them at that location. Otherwise, why are you moving goods? To satisfy some merchant desire to travel around? That is easily done in numerous other games.
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Lets look at the ambush scenario from the crafters viewpoint:
You as a crafter have spent a lot of time and effort crafting a wagonload of magic weapons to sell at a well-known fair at another town. You need them moved and put out a call for guards. The ambush happens and,
A) they are beaten off. No harm no foul onto the fair
B) they kill everyone and loot your wagon. Now, you Rez at whatever save point and you can put together a posse to hunt them, put bounties out on their heads (assuming you caught their names-I'm sure this will be easy to do), BUT...
You the craft master are out the loot. All that time, effort and gold wasted. You might kill the little jerks that stole it, someone might have a fun time arranging a revenge posse, but the likelihood of recovering that cache of weapons is likely nil, unless you have some way off immediately tracking them down and killing them. If they are smart they'll cache the loot quickly, as they won't want to lose the items they lost reputation for
Now, as that craftsman, I would be devastated. Assuming maybe I put in a full two weeks of game time crafting to make that stuff, it all seems worthless now. I am officially someone's NPC victim. The frustration would be intense, and a scenario like that would likely ruin any fun I had in the game for quite a while.
Like I said before, I understand that this game is set up a certain way. I am merely trying to explain what some of the concerns are for those of us not thrilled by PvP. Saying 'try it you'll like it' doesn't help. Neither does 'just join a big company'. If those are the choices, then it's going to turn off a segment of the population. I'm going to try it, but I am also going to make my concerns known.
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Okay, so let's put it in RPG terms, how would you handle it then? How would you in a PnP RPG handle the things? Don't get me wrong, I don't want to pick a fight. But I feel what you want is a single player game with content you can handle, or just a themepark MMO.
It's a difficult comparison to make because in PNP games, you do not get rushed by 30 monsters of equal skill level to the players trying to take your stuff. Not unless your DM is a railroading jerk and intends for the things to get stolen. PnP characters are also just "better" than their surroundings.
We are handing out options to people who are afraid to lose items with solutions. We tell people to try the game and see how it feels and what happens and how you will be protected. I know that if you were in my charter and you had those items to be moved, the charter would step up and help you move them to where you want. Or if you died would help you get your gear back (if not in stock already so you could just grab it) etc.
Here's my point, Psy. You have a large group of people who are on the fence about PVP being in the game *at all*, and now you are also adding the "poison pill" of losing their hard-won equipment to the mix. Das is nicht gut.
People are now coming back with the argument "oh, it's only certain slots if you're not a criminal, and the items are easily replaceable." Well, if that is the case, then it's just another inconvenience added on top of the pile of inconvenience that the Anti-PVP crowd is already opposed to, so why bother adding such a divisive element?
However, if you only want to play lonewolf and not willing to interact with other people in regards of a charter or the game. I will never be able to convince you then to widen your horizon and try something new, and that is a shame :(
And what I fail to understand is the reason people keep coming back with people wanting a single player game just because they don't want to join some massive guild or alliance to guarantee protection.
I want to play the game, I want to play the game with friends, but I am an introvert - I prefer a smaller circle of close friends to a large group of people I hardly know. Just because I don't want to be in a guild of 500 doesn't mean I don't want to play with, say, 30 close friends, who may or may not all be online when I need to do things.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Lets look at the ambush scenario from the crafters viewpoint:
You as a crafter have spent a lot of time and effort crafting a wagonload of magic weapons to sell at a well-known fair at another town. You need them moved and put out a call for guards. The ambush happens and,
A) they are beaten off. No harm no foul onto the fair
B) they kill everyone and loot your wagon. Now, you Rez at whatever save point and you can put together a posse to hunt them, put bounties out on their heads (assuming you caught their names-I'm sure this will be easy to do), BUT...
You the craft master are out the loot. All that time, effort and gold wasted. You might kill the little jerks that stole it, someone might have a fun time arranging a revenge posse, but the likelihood of recovering that cache of weapons is likely nil, unless you have some way off immediately tracking them down and killing them. If they are smart they'll cache the loot quickly, as they won't want to lose the items they lost reputation for
Now, as that craftsman, I would be devastated. Assuming maybe I put in a full two weeks of game time crafting to make that stuff, it all seems worthless now. I am officially someone's NPC victim. The frustration would be intense, and a scenario like that would likely ruin any fun I had in the game for quite a while.
Like I said before, I understand that this game is set up a certain way. I am merely trying to explain what some of the concerns are for those of us not thrilled by PvP. Saying 'try it you'll like it' doesn't help. Neither does 'just join a big company'. If those are the choices, then it's going to turn off a segment of the population. I'm going to try it, but I am also going to make my concerns known.
And that is why successful merchants will do as real merchants do, and hire protection, use routes that pass through heavily patrolled lawful good areas and not move too many expensive goods at once. Mix your loads so that only a few extremely valuable items are in with that load of basic armor. You still get a high pay off from the expensive items and you don't have too big of a risk. But then, high risk is generally a high reward, if you can manage. As someone who is really looking forward to playing a merchant/running a merchant guild, these possibilities have me excited. I want that risk, I want those choices. I want to have an excuse to hire a armed group of friends to guard my caravan.
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Goblin Squad Member
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- Agreed. I believe all opinions at this point are part of the process. I'm offering my thoughts on why I don't think that is a good idea, and that GW has offered ideas with regard to this concern that seem like a happy medium. How do you feel about the ideas that GW has offered with regard to this very issue?
I'm not trying to be combative here, but your post didn't really say anything but that you thought the idea was terrible, and that you thought partial random looting was a good idea. I have said i don't know if a cash reward instead of loot would be possible, but I would prefer that. Now, obviously it doesn't allow PvPers their 'reward' of someone else's things, but if PvP is more than naked greed this shouldn't be an issue.
- The foundation of the game is meaningful player interaction. It doesn't have to be, but that is what it is. It isn't a single- or -multi player game, and if it was there we need to be a completely different design. On the one hand it sounds like you are uninterested in the unique design of PFO, on the other hand it seems to me that you will be able to trade/craft and explore a dungeon, etc in PFO, just as long as you are okay that you will be working with other players while doing those things.We all have to agree on the basic design of the game if we are going to have meaningful conversations about the ruleset for that design.
There's a difference between getting a group together to go exploring and having to mount an army expedition to go exploring. We all obviously don't all agree about certain aspects of the game, and discussing them is how we reach compromise. If you want just the opinions you agree with, then the discussion will be sterile. If it turns out that the community isn't interested in differing opinions, then that is fine as well. I can go busy myself elsewhere, I just thought another viewpoint would be helpful.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Also, it seems like a lot of these conversations are coming from the standpoint of single-player experience, which this won't be. The basic assumption is player interaction, so if you plan to be a loner 100% all of the time, then, yea, you will definitely run into trouble if you don't plan well.
Not everyone views it this way. For many it's about a persistant, changing, vibrant world where they do interact with other people, sometimes regularly, sometimes not, but interaction does not necessitate "ability to kill and loot on sight"
So my point is that there are many many motivations for people to play a game like this.
- I concur that interaction does not necessitate the potential for death, but in this game it is part of the facet of that interaction. Why? Because of all the reasons Ryan/GW has mentioned. The question is how are we going to take the positives and make them better and take the negatives and make them better.
- I would hope folks have all sorts of motivqtions and create interesting characters to act out these motivations.
And that is why successful merchants will do as real merchants do, and hire protection, use routes that pass through heavily patrolled lawful good areas and not move too many expensive goods at once. Mix your loads so that only a few extremely valuable items...
In fairness, we're talking about a fantasy world here. Fedex trucks do not get randomly attacked by bandits, and in the real world you do not just respawn when you die. Most of the "risks" to moving a caravan in PFO would not apply to moving a caravan in the real world, because in the real world, if someone shoots you with an arrow, you either die from the wound or die slowly from the resulting infection.
Having 3 or 4 armed and armored guards with a caravan would have likely been an ample deterrent for the real world, because most people aren't willing to risk their lives over some silk and spices unless they're completely desperate. In PFO, you respawn and try four more times and hope one of them you get lucky, and then boom, you're rich, they're poor.
And, being pretty blunt, the margins on craftable items cannot possibly be high enough to substantiate the sort of effort you're referring to, or the economy will absolutely explode with inflation.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Robb Smith
First point: Yes I know that the PnP characters are suposed to be heroes, but the players in the PFO world are going to be the same, they will be explorers, tacticians, warriors and sages. And when they go explore and run into a rampaging dragon they might die, lose their gear as well (because let's be fair, in PFO you will lose your gear in PvE as well). This is the same in PnP if you pick the wrong fight and you can die, your gear might be saved by your friends (or not if they had to run) and they can put a rez spell on you. I am sure most GM's will be nice enough to say here is your gear, but what if you didn't have a GM like that and you had to start all over. Would you still be playing your game then? I am sure you would quit if that would be the 3rd time.
Now imagine your GM starting say a Kingmaker campaign and warns everyone he will be doing it with 2 other groups and they will be on a different point of the map starting. Eventually it will clash, you think that is going to be a friendly tea party and everyone goes their own merry way? I would hope not and I would hope it would lead to suspension, diplomacy and skills of the player to come out on top. This is the same setting for PFO.
2nd point:
The thing with losing items is actually a time/gold sink. In a themepark mmo you have damaged gear that needs to be repaired, buy a potion and once in a while buy a new weapon. That sums up the market basically. With a sandbox mmo, you the player, are the market, you are the supplier and you are the one demanding. You want a special weapon, you can get it, but you need precious star metal that is deep in ogre country. Go find it and then return to have that weapon made. Oh yeah, you will have to travel near a bandit camp!
Now if you are someone who knows the way, knows the dangers you can make alot of profit and be rich. Don't want to take risks? you can just farm or do other simple things and make money before buying it. However, and this is something I will keep saying. Don't run around with items you cannot replace.
3rd point:
Never said you need to join a massive guild. But there are alliances who, once they have their settlement will welcome smaller guilds that are interested in just crafting and gathering. And they will protect the smaller guilds etc. I am sure that for each guild there is a place where they can fit. You just have to find your spot, the right people and you can have tons of fun.
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And that is why successful merchants will do as real merchants do, and hire protection, use routes that pass through heavily patrolled lawful good areas and not move too many expensive goods at once. Mix your loads so that only a few extremely valuable items...In fairness, we're talking about a fantasy world here. Fedex trucks do not get randomly attacked by bandits, and in the real world you do not just respawn when you die. Most of the "risks" to moving a caravan in PFO would not apply to moving a caravan in the real world, because in the real world, if someone shoots you with an arrow, you either die from the wound or die slowly from the resulting infection.
Having 3 or 4 armed and armored guards with a caravan would have likely been an ample deterrent for the real world, because most people aren't willing to risk their lives over some silk and spices unless they're completely desperate. In PFO, you respawn and try four more times and hope one of them you get lucky, and then boom, you're rich, they're poor.
And, being pretty blunt, the margins on craftable items cannot possibly be high enough to substantiate the sort of effort you're referring to, or the economy will absolutely explode with inflation.
I have not read of too many fantasy merchants who didn't travel with some sort of escort, unless they were into really naughty things. And yes, in most civil countries merchants are not attacked very often. Their establishments are still robbed fairly frequently, but that is beside the point.
If they are not high enough to substantiate that, then why is everyone so concerned? If that cargo really isn't valuable and can be replaced in a couple days, then why the fuss about people attacking and taking it? Why would anyone but a small amount of ornery people be doing this if the reward isn't high enough to be worth losing alignment/reputation and possibly items from their own inventory if they fail?
@Robb Smith
First point: Yes I know that the PnP characters are suposed to be heroes, but the players in the PFO world are going to be the same, they will be explorers, tacticians, warriors and sages. And when they go explore and run into a rampaging dragon they might die, lose their gear as well (because let's be fair, in PFO you will lose your gear in PvE as well). This is the same in PnP if you pick the wrong fight and you can die, your gear might be saved by your friends (or not if they had to run) and they can put a rez spell on you. I am sure most GM's will be nice enough to say here is your gear, but what if you didn't have a GM like that and you had to start all over. Would you still be playing your game then? I am sure you would quit if that would be the 3rd time.
It's completely different. If you have a party of 4 12th level characters, you do not get attacked by 30 12th level NPCs. That occuring would mean your DM was intentionally just trying to kill your side. That interaction just wouldn't occur in PnP, there's no comparison that can be made.
Now imagine your GM starting say a Kingmaker campaign and warns everyone he will be doing it with 2 other groups and they will be on a different point of the map starting. Eventually it will clash, you think that is going to be a friendly tea party and everyone goes their own merry way? I would hope not and I would hope it would lead to suspension, diplomacy and skills of the player to come out on top. This is the same setting for PFO.
Again, an interesting idea, and one that has been thrown around in conversation many times, but not one that happens in reality. After months of investment, what happens to the second group? "Thanks for your time, everyone. Your game is now over, you lose. Thanks for wasting months of your life".
It just would not happen.
The later points I'm not even going to address, because they contain what are frankly blind assumptions about how the game will operate.
I have not read of too many fantasy merchants who didn't travel with some sort of escort, unless they were into really naughty things. And yes, in most civil countries merchants are not attacked very often. Their establishments are still robbed fairly frequently, but that is beside the point.
The point I am trying to make is that you don't get to make potentially 3 or even 4 attempts against what could be the same caravan.
If they are not high enough to substantiate that, then why is everyone so concerned? If that cargo really isn't valuable and can be replaced in a couple days, then why the fuss about people attacking and taking it? Why would anyone but a small amount of ornery people be doing this if the reward isn't high enough to be worth losing alignment/reputation and possibly items from their own inventory if they fail?
There's a substantial difference in margins to be considered between making/transporting/selling goods and "taking them for free". The cost of losing the goods to the merchant is all the costs required to make them. The cost of the bandits failing to get the caravan is nothing. So you're comparing tons of risk for a moderate reward to zero risk for a massive reward. It's a pretty no-brainer which side gets the better end of that stick.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am with Psyblade, I could see the outcome being pretty fun either way.Fun for all except the merchant moving their goods. Here we come to the point that has come up several times "I'm not paying to be someone else's content"
For me personally, yeah, it adds something, a problem to overcome. Do you hire a company to escort you and attract attention? Or do you go it alone and try for the fast and secretive? Stay off the main roads and take a winding, less travelled road? Or take the main way and hope for the best?
Put bounties out on the brigands and try again? So that there's even more incentive to kill them?
Or try subterfuge and hire an escort for a not so valuable cargo while secretly transferring something valuable by other means?
It all has possibilities. But for other people, none of that holds any appeal at all, and I think it's important to recognise that not everyone enjoys the same scenarios.
Okay, so let's put it in RPG terms, how would you handle it then? How would you in a PnP RPG handle the things? Don't get me wrong, I don't want to pick a fight. But I feel what you want is a single player game with content you can handle, or just a themepark MMO.
We are handing out options to people who are afraid to lose items with solutions. We tell people to try the game and see how it feels and what happens and how you will be protected. I know that if you were in my charter and you had those items to be moved, the charter would step up and help you move them to where you want. Or if you died would help you get your gear back (if not in stock already so you could just grab it) etc.
However, if you only want to play lonewolf and not willing to interact with other people in regards of a charter or the game. I will never be able to convince you then to widen your horizon and try something new, and that is a shame :(
I said what *I* would do, I'm just trying to point out that saying "It's more exciting this way, you'll enjoy it" Is not necessarily true. I recognise that some people really like the idea of a full loot, kill anyone, but be prepared for the consequences, to them that adds a great deal of depth and excitement, but to other people that is the ANTITHESIS of a good time.
I'm just saying that there are different motivations for playing something like this and trying to appeal to the things that make it more exciting for YOU won't necessarily help convince someone who's idea of fun goes in a completely different direction. There should be a place for lone adventurers, in fact, somewhere it even SAYS that classes like rangers and druids tend to be solitary types.
The game is not ALL about cooperation and conflict. Some people just want to go on an adventure alone or with a couple of friends and hunt some goblins or dragons.
Someone just wants to take their druid out and wander the woods finding new plants and herbs and animals while bashing the occasional orc. Then occasionally turn up in a town and sell some pelts or herbs or potions, chat a little, roleplay a bit, then wander off into the woods.
And yes, some people want to forge an empire with like minded individuals and try to dominate a region through military conquest and team worth, thriving off the conflict.
There is nothing more valid about the conqueror than the solitary druid for a motivation to play this game.
And I don't think you're trying to pick a fight, don't worry :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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B) they kill everyone and loot your wagon. Now, you Rez at whatever save point and you can put together a posse to hunt them, put bounties out on their heads (assuming you caught their names-I'm sure this will be easy to do), BUT...
Also assuming the ambush took place in controlled, lawful territory. The bounty system can only be used against criminal acts, and PvP in the unlawful wilds will not tag anyone as a criminal.
Any bandits with any sense will ambush you after you leave lawful areas. Unless the two settlements are so close together that there is no wilderness in between (basically twins cities), bounties won't help you against bandits.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have not read of too many fantasy merchants who didn't travel with some sort of escort, unless they were into really naughty things. And yes, in most civil countries merchants are not attacked very often. Their establishments are still robbed fairly frequently, but that is beside the point.The point I am trying to make is that you don't get to make potentially 3 or even 4 attempts against what could be the same caravan.
If they are not high enough to substantiate that, then why is everyone so concerned? If that cargo really isn't valuable and can be replaced in a couple days, then why the fuss about people attacking and taking it? Why would anyone but a small amount of ornery people be doing this if the reward isn't high enough to be worth losing alignment/reputation and possibly items from their own inventory if they fail?There's a substantial difference in margins to be considered between making/transporting/selling goods and "taking them for free".
Are you sure they would get multiple attempts? Are corpse runs for sure included or do you resurrect at a bind point? Are bind points allowed to be bandit hideouts? Too many unknowns right now to just make the assumptions you are making. If your bind point is far away, the caravan will be gone. If you are doing corpse runs, the caravan may still be gone. Do you know where they are going? Are they going to divert to a nearby settlement now to cure their critical wounds? Too many unknowns to just claim what you are claiming.
Why are his last points blind assumptions? There are numerous open pvp games that have guilds who protect new players/new guilds. I can see PFO being even more into that with how many RP'ers are likely to pick up the game.
That is about the only thing he said that was not a blind assumption.
And based on my personal experiences, I have found that within my circles of friends and acquaintances, PVP is a massive turn-off for the roleplaying crowd. The heaviest roleplayers in my circle are also the ones most dead-set against playing on PVP enabled servers.
Are you sure they would get multiple attempts? Are corpse runs for sure included or do you resurrect at a bind point? Are bind points allowed to be bandit hideouts? Too many unknowns right now to just make the assumptions you are making. If your bind point is far away, the caravan will be gone. If you are doing corpse runs, the caravan may still be gone. Do you know where they are going? Are they going to divert to a nearby settlement now to cure their critical wounds? Too many unknowns to just claim what you are claiming.
Even if every single point you make is true, does the risk/reward for the bandits equal the risk/reward for the merchant? I'm going to have to stick with "no" for this.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Why are his last points blind assumptions? There are numerous open pvp games that have guilds who protect new players/new guilds. I can see PFO being even more into that with how many RP'ers are likely to pick up the game.That is about the only thing he said that was not a blind assumption.
And based on my personal experiences, I have found that within my circles of friends and acquaintances, PVP is a massive turn-off for the roleplaying crowd. The heaviest roleplayers in my circle are also the ones most dead-set against playing on PVP enabled servers.
And I know RP'ers who are the most dedicated pvp'ers who literally will use a scorched eath tactic before surrendering.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yeah. I have been in roleplaying in every single game I have ever played that even remotely has the possibility of it. I guess it depends on who you played with, but yes I know both types. My circle (who are currently playing GW2/TSW/WoW and have over 200 active members across the games) are all pretty into PVP and are very into roleplaying.
EDIT: As for the risk/reward, the risk for the bandits would be the large amount of time wasted if they fail, on top of the other risks. Sure, it may be a higher risk for the merchant, but honestly that excites me as a merchant. I am not saying I speak for everyone, I am just stating my view and how I feel my circle feels about these things. Honestly though, I am not feeling like we are discussing anything anymore, more of arguing our obviously different views because we can not simply agree that different people want different things. Since that seems to be the case, I won't be responding to your posts, but I do respect your viewpoints. The developers will read all viewpoints and go with what they feel is best regardless.
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Goblin Squad Member
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B) they kill everyone and loot your wagon. Now, you Rez at whatever save point and you can put together a posse to hunt them, put bounties out on their heads (assuming you caught their names-I'm sure this will be easy to do), BUT...Also assuming the ambush took place in controlled, lawful territory. The bounty system can only be used against criminal acts, and PvP in the unlawful wilds will not tag anyone as a criminal.
Any bandits with any sense will ambush you after you leave lawful areas. Unless the two settlements are so close together that there is no wilderness in between (basically twins cities), bounties won't help you against bandits.
I've read some things on these forums that give me the impression lawful/unlawful may not just be determined by where the NPC starter towns are. It may also be determined by which players control that hex. I could see this giving rise to a system where there would be large areas of lawful territory.
Lawful organizations might even work together to make sure everyone who controls the territory between their main trade hubs are lawful.
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Goblin Squad Member
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B) they kill everyone and loot your wagon. Now, you Rez at whatever save point and you can put together a posse to hunt them, put bounties out on their heads (assuming you caught their names-I'm sure this will be easy to do), BUT...Also assuming the ambush took place in controlled, lawful territory. The bounty system can only be used against criminal acts, and PvP in the unlawful wilds will not tag anyone as a criminal.
Any bandits with any sense will ambush you after you leave lawful areas. Unless the two settlements are so close together that there is no wilderness in between (basically twins cities), bounties won't help you against bandits.
I've read some things on these forums that give me the impression lawful/unlawful may not just be determined by where the NPC starter towns are. It may also be determined by which players control that hex. I could see this giving rise to a system where there would be large areas of lawful territory.
Lawful organizations might even work together to make sure everyone who controls the territory between their main trade hubs are lawful.
I suppose it might end up that If you want resources from merchants not part of your faction in your town, you look after the trade routes or they just won't come there because your town isn't profitable for them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I suppose it might end up that If you want resources from merchants not part of your faction in your town, you look after the trade routes or they just won't come there because your town isn't profitable for them.
What I will see happening is that major alliances / charters will build their settlements, then work on the surrounding hexes and defend them. Then the rare materials gathered from the wild will be transported to the settlement and with common materials being transported from the NPC settlements to the main one to use for production of weapons/armor/potions etc.
I can throw in another monkey wrench to get the non-pvp'ers upset but I won't...
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Goblin Squad Member
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I suppose it might end up that If you want resources from merchants not part of your faction in your town, you look after the trade routes or they just won't come there because your town isn't profitable for them.What I will see happening is that major alliances / charters will build their settlements, then work on the surrounding hexes and defend them. Then the rare materials gathered from the wild will be transported to the settlement and with common materials being transported from the NPC settlements to the main one to use for production of weapons/armor/potions etc.
I can throw in another monkey wrench to get the non-pvp'ers upset but I won't...
I can think of one :P Perhaps some merchants in a town will HIRE the bandits to raid caravans, inflating the price of goods in their town and keeping a monopoly.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There's a difference between getting a group together to go exploring and having to mount an army expedition to go exploring. We all obviously don't all agree about certain aspects of the game, and discussing them is how we reach compromise. If you want just the opinions you agree with, then the discussion will be sterile. If it turns out that the community isn't interested in differing opinions, then that is fine as well. I can go busy myself elsewhere, I just thought another viewpoint would be helpful.
- re grouping. I totally get what you are saying there.
- re agreement. I certainly do not want an echo chamber, but that is very different then agreeing about the basic assumptions. I sincerely hope you stick around.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As a new player, I've noticed how there COULD be a lot of PvP happening between players, especially when certain interests conflict, but if you've got a good group this shouldn't happen, right?
I think most of the PvP will happen in situations surrounding the factional content, because that's the PvP without penalty and with the benefits, it's aimed at PvP being with purpose, so they'll likely to kill you if they have a strong reason to, but it doesn't seem like there would be much benefit to killing someone roaming the wildnerness, yet the potential to cause the killer a great deal of strife.
I think it's a case of they CAN, that doesn't mean they SHOULD.
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Goblin Squad Member
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but it doesn't seem like there would be much benefit to killing someone roaming the wildnerness
Now, you could have just gotten that uber rare drop of ultimate awesomeness.
Now, you could have it sitting right there in your backback
Now, it could be the random item I get to loot from your husk after I kill you.
So the question I gotta ask myself is, do I feel lucky today punk?
I can see a benefit.
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Goblin Squad Member
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but it doesn't seem like there would be much benefit to killing someone roaming the wildnernessNow, you could have just gotten that uber rare drop of ultimate awesomeness.
Now, you could have it sitting right there in your backback
Now, it could be the random item I get to loot from your husk after I kill you.
So the question I gotta ask myself is, do I feel lucky today punk?
I can see a benefit.
How would they even KNOW you had an ultra rare drop? If it's an ultra rare, you WOULDN'T expect them to have it even if they DID kill the thing you get it from.
They can kill you and try, but even if you have it, chances are they STILL won't get it. It's not a very STRONG incentive to lower your reputation, you'd be better off raiding a factional enemy's resources and using them to trade for the rare you want :P
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How would they even KNOW you had an ultra rare drop? If it's an ultra rare, you WOULDN'T expect them to have it even if they DID kill the thing you get it from.They can kill you and try, but even if you have it, chances are they STILL won't get it. It's not a very STRONG incentive to lower your reputation, you'd be better off raiding a factional enemy's resources and using them to trade for the rare you want :P
And if you're reputation's already shot, there's little reason not to try, is there?
That's the problem.
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Goblin Squad Member
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How would they even KNOW you had an ultra rare drop? If it's an ultra rare, you WOULDN'T expect them to have it even if they DID kill the thing you get it from.They can kill you and try, but even if you have it, chances are they STILL won't get it. It's not a very STRONG incentive to lower your reputation, you'd be better off raiding a factional enemy's resources and using them to trade for the rare you want :P
And if you're reputation's already shot, there's little reason not to try, is there?
That's the problem.
There is, because it will impact on your ability to interact with others, and since you cant rely on looting for equipment, it could be quite difficult to maintain your character considering the pressure on it from bounties, hunting by others and inability to use many towns and services, and your alignment and reputation affecting those you associate with you, which means if you're a douche, you'll bring others down with you, so you'll be in a constant struggle against better resourced opponents that way
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Goblin Squad Member
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Dear PvP Shy Folks,
When all is said and done, none of us know how this game is going to work out. We can only read the information out there about it and project our own hopes and fears on it.
Here is why you SHOULD back the Kickstarter for this game even if you don't like the idea of a Open World, Sandbox, Non-consensual PvP game.
In the beta with the slow roll out of the game the first people in it are going to get to start to build the culture of the game. The seeds of nations will be born then, and the social contract will be written (so to speak). It is during this formidable time that your voice and actions will matter the most.
If we create a culture in the game where evil is really looked down on and the way of the bandit and outlaw is a hard life to live, then this will have a lasting effect. If however we allow jerks to get away with murder (literally) with out is having a negative impact, then we have helped toss way the dream of true Sandbox gaming.
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There is, because it will impact on your ability to interact with others, and since you cant rely on looting for equipment, it could be quite difficult to maintain your character considering the pressure on it from bounties, hunting by others and inability to use many towns and services, and your alignment and reputation affecting those you associate with you, which means if you're a douche, you'll bring others down with you, so you'll be in a constant struggle against better resourced opponents that way
Look, you have to understand that our problem is not with the 20, 30, 50, or even 80% of PVP players that act with some decorum or sense of honor, here. Our problem is with the 20% of them that are scum-sucking bottom feeders that give the entire PVP concept and population a bad name. Many of them playing in methods that are, from everything we've gotten so far, not truly "griefers" - they're just a-holes.
This 20% is the group that really ruin the experience for us. The kind that don't care about the game, reputation, etc. They just want to play quake with swords, ruin other people's day, and take your stuff. They don't care if it's a +5 Vorpal sword or a stack of iron. It was yours, now it's theirs, and they know that you're going to be irritated at losing it, and that's all they care about. They don't care about not being able to use towns, all that means to them is they have to level up to a point they're comfortable with and then be jerks to people as they pass through while dodging people better then them (problem is, with the reduced power curve that lee and Stephen spoke about, that's less of an issue).
But the biggest thing is this 20% of people who are a-holes are also the ones who are pretty much PVPing all day long. This means that they usually have skill levels that allow them to defeat 2 or 3 people who do not have interest in PVPing all day long. Don't believe it? Go play wow. It's pretty easy in battlegrounds to tell who is from the PVP servers and who is from the PVE servers. The PVE players are the ones sitting with one sapped while the rogue is killing their friend, before they vanish to kill the one that's sapped, usually while shouting "kek kek kek" over and over. (that's LOL after faction-garbling.)
This is the 20% that we PVE-focused don't want to be forced to endure. Most of us don't really have any opposition to the grand plans of people like Andius and the fact he wants to kill these people, or the whole concepts of faction warfare and etc. That whole concept is *fine* with us.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There is, because it will impact on your ability to interact with others, and since you cant rely on looting for equipment, it could be quite difficult to maintain your character considering the pressure on it from bounties, hunting by others and inability to use many towns and services, and your alignment and reputation affecting those you associate with you, which means if you're a douche, you'll bring others down with you, so you'll be in a constant struggle against better resourced opponents that wayLook, you have to understand that our problem is not with the 20, 30, 50, or even 80% of PVP players that act with some decorum or sense of honor, here. Our problem is with the 20% of them that are scum-sucking bottom feeders that give the entire PVP concept and population a bad name. Many of them playing in methods that are, from everything we've gotten so far, not truly "griefers" - they're just a-holes.
This 20% is the group that really ruin the experience for us. The kind that don't care about the game, reputation, etc. They just want to play quake with swords, ruin other people's day, and take your stuff. They don't care if it's a +5 Vorpal sword or a stack of iron. It was yours, now it's theirs, and they know that you're going to be irritated at losing it, and that's all they care about. They don't care about not being able to use towns, all that means to them is they have to level up to a point they're comfortable with and then be jerks to people as they pass through while dodging people better then them (problem is, with the reduced power curve that lee and Stephen spoke about, that's less of an issue).
But the biggest thing is this 20% of people who are a-holes are also the ones who are pretty much PVPing all day long. This means that they usually have skill levels that allow them to defeat 2 or 3 people who do not have interest in PVPing all day long. Don't believe it? Go play wow. It's pretty easy in battlegrounds to tell who is from the PVP...
I know, I don't like them either, but the point is it's a lot harder for them to progress their characters and get the skills they need to actually be any good, so by attacking like that, they're undermining their own ability to keep up with the other PvPers who aren't douches, so soon they'll be losing ALL THE TIME and either realise that if they wanna act that way they're gonna suck, or they have to stop doing it to progress. Which means before long, they wont be able to kill you so easily and either you'll be able to get away, or you'll kill them. And unlike the various steps you have to get revenge on them for killing you, they have no avenues of recourse apart from trying again, but of course, you won't be there when they get back.
I know you don't want to have to fight them at all and won't enjoy it, it doesn't appeal to me either, but I don't think it's going to be anywhere near as bad as we've seen in other games, because the mechanics is actually aimed at stopping them, not just the philosophy of "oh we disapprove, but it's within the mechanics so it's legit"