Making an even matchup

[nogoodscallywag]

How would an even matchup be developed between a CR 20 Dragon and an Orc?

A CR 20 is Dragon is just that- CR 20.

But one Orc is only 1/3...

Let's say for convenience we select a CR 1 Advanced Orc.

CR 20 Dragon =/ CR 1 Orc =/ means does not equal...

Would we simply make the CR of the Orc rise by adding 19 more Orcs?

CR 20 Dragon = 20 CR 1 Orcs? Is this an equal fight?

What about taking into consideration this:

An encounter for Player Characters is figured by CR and APL; therefore, generally, a CR 20 Dragon would confront 4-6 CR 20 Players, correct?

So let's say 4 CR 20 Players would be facing a CR 20 Dragon, then that would seem that there are 80 Levels going against a 20-level Dragon.

If this is the case, would that mean there would be 80 CR 1 Orcs to fight the CR 20 Dragon to make it even?

[VRMH]

An Orc has no chance against a Dragon.
Twenty Orcs, eighty Orcs, one hundred and forty-four Orcs... it doesn't matter. Not a chance.

[Kayerloth]

Quote:

An encounter for Player Characters is figured by CR and APL; therefore, generally, a CR 20 Dragon would confront 4-6 CR 20 Players, correct? ... If this is the case, would that mean there would be 80 CR 1 Orcs to fight the CR 20 Dragon to make it even?

Couple thoughts:

First keep in mind this is NOT an 'equal' or 'even matchup' fight (i.e a 50/50 chance for either side to win). The PCs are expected to win, it is supposed to be a challenge which is not the same as 'equal'. The PCs will win almost all such encounters or they would rarely make it to level 2 much less level 20.

The system, at least in 3.5, tends to break down when the encounter is made of creatures whose CR is far below the APL (or the opposing CR of the dragon in this case). In 3.5 terms it would take over 500 CR 1's to be a "correct" EL for an APL or CR 20. Every time you double the number of foes you add +2 to the EL (1 Orc is EL 1, 2 Orcs is EL 3, 4 Orcs would be EL 5 etc.) At least that is how I recall it. But as VRMH says its doubtful even 500+ Orcs are going to much threaten either an APL 20 party or a CR 20 Dragon. Get more than 5 doublings out and it starts to fall apart fairly quickly (Would you expect, for example, 32 Orcs to be much challenge for an APL 11?)

Now give a smart and lucky Orc a Dragon Orb ...

[Ross Byers]

Doubling the number of creatures increases the CR by 2.

3 orcs are CR 1.

Generally speaking, 3,072 Orcs would be CR 21. That's a lot of orcs. Trouble is that the 'double the monsters is CR +2' rules breaks down after more than a couple applications, because it leaves certain benchmarks of creature design behind. In this case, that's a whole army of orcs, but they can't fly, have no magic and minimal ranged attacks, while the dragon has potent area of effect attacks (Breath weapons, elemental aura, frightful presence, spells) that can kill swaths of orcs at a time.

As far as a 20 CR dragon facing 4-6 players, keep in mind the CR system is built assuming that the players will win. A CR 20 dragon is supposed to drain about 20% of that party's available, relevant resources (that is health points, limited-use abilities, and higher-level spells). It's a speed bump, not a 'fair fight' with a coin flip of an outcome.

[DDogwood]

Give the Orc 20 class levels in a tier 2 or 3 class, and you've got a potentially fair matchup. CR isn't balanced by quantity in most cases.

[Kayerloth]

Sounds like short of dropping the EL terminology PF is pretty much the same as 3.5 in this respect. My 500+ was assuming CR 1 advanced orcs and was about "EL" 19. So a 1048 would be a 21 and either way them orcs are Dragon playthings.

To look at another way an APL 20 party if it was the foe would be a CR 24. Our Dragon is tackling foe that is +4 to it <grin>. That is, as Ross put it, a speed bump for the CR 24.

[Azaelas Fayth]

"Any army with sufficient numbers can take out any foe." - Anonymous

A Strike Force of CR1 Orc NPCs could take them down. Remember you don't need to use the Simple Templates to raise the power of an Orc.

Say the force is made using any combination of the following CR1 Orc builds:

Orc Sorcerer2
Orc Cleric2
Orc Fighter2
Orc Barbarian2

You would reasonably be able to take down the Dragon.

That said enough Orc Warrior1 and Adept1 units could take the Dragon down. Many wouldn't survive but they could defeat it.

That is assuming you use basic Military Tactics that even an Orc would know.

Though Hobgoblins would be even more likely to take down a Dragon.