ahah yeah, that too
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I think that I am just going to go over the critters that are imune to magic and give them a high SR. Maybe 10 or 11 plus CR or something similar. That will make the fight tough but not make the sorcerer completely useless.
FYI, high SR is not 10 or 11 + CR - that's standard. Very, very few creatures in any of the 3 Bestiaries with SR have less than 10 + CR, and the vast majority are 11 + CR. The few that are very resistant, but not immune, to magic have 15 + CR.
FYI, high SR is not 10 or 11 + CR - that's standard. Very, very few creatures in any of the 3 Bestiaries with SR have less than 10 + CR, and the vast majority are 11 + CR. The few that are very resistant, but not immune, to magic have 15 + CR.I think that I am just going to go over the critters that are imune to magic and give them a high SR. Maybe 10 or 11 plus CR or something similar. That will make the fight tough but not make the sorcerer completely useless.
Yep. 11+class level is Drow or Monk SR, which is decent but hardly highly resistant to a caster of equivalent challenge; it's mostly useful for keeping lower-level magic-flingers off your back, and the occasional lucky save when an opponent rolls low.
Dodge! Parry! Spin! Thrust! ..... I'm out of special attacks! run!
Tend to agree with OP about it sounding excessive. That's even laying aside my horrible feelings about the entire idea of things like 'magic immunity' - that should only exist in an exceptionally tiny number of creatures (which does not include foes like Golems).
Would you throw a monster immune to melee damage, or weapon damage at a party?
Yes I would. It's called an insect swarm. Immune to weapon damage as long as critters composing the swarm are Fine or Diminutive. A fine example of this can be found in Erik Mona's Whispering Cairn for the Age of Worms AP.
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Things a 6th level sorceror can do against a magic inmune creature:
1- Cast Haste
2- Summon Monsters
3- Create pits
4- Cast Enlarge Person
5- (insert here a dozen other very usefull buff spells)
I think Magic inmune monsters aren't more unfair than, say, swarms (which are inmune to weapons), or flying monsters vs melee, or inmune to mind affecting effects monsters vs a very focused enchanter. It's part of the trade, you need to be flexible. If your magic user insists to have only direct damage spells, or save or suck spells, or only illusion spells, or whatever other decision, then they have to acept the hindrance that come with it. That includes being useless in some encounters
Thanks for thr opinions, and I guess that the spell selection my player took may not be optimal for this AP. However, this player is not looking to create the optimal, power gaming character. He creates a background and then builds the character to fit the story. In this case he decided to create an elemental sorcerer that favors electrical attacks. Since I actively in courage this type of character building I do not want to penalize him for his build.
So if a character in your group decides to build an enchanter, focusing only in Charm-like spells, you won't use any monster inmune to mind effects? Or if someone chooses to build an ilusionists, you bar True seeing from the monsters spell lists?
So if a character in your group decides to build an enchanter, focusing only in Charm-like spells, you won't use any monster inmune to mind effects? Or if someone chooses to build an ilusionists, you bar True seeing from the monsters spell lists?Thanks for thr opinions, and I guess that the spell selection my player took may not be optimal for this AP. However, this player is not looking to create the optimal, power gaming character. He creates a background and then builds the character to fit the story. In this case he decided to create an elemental sorcerer that favors electrical attacks. Since I actively in courage this type of character building I do not want to penalize him for his build.
Magic Immunity is a bit more difficult to get around for a newer player than immunity to a specific type of ability (like charm). And the problem, according to the OP, wasn't magic immunity, but having three monsters with that in a row.
Plus, since the party apparently also has a wizard, it's possible that he/she's the one taking care of buffs, leaving the offensive ones to the sorcerer. It's not entirely fair to say that's porr planning. Spells that go through SR are also somewhat rare, and less likely to be known by less experienced players. Just the other day, my friend who's been playing 3.5 for at least 5 years found out that acid arrow ignores SR.
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a long time ago, when I played live action roll playing. I was Npcing as a goblin priest.
We were just goblins in the module, and a quick beat down every time a group of PC's came rambling through, I never lasted long enough to get off my "good spell".
It was half way through the day, so I was frustrated, the next group that came through was full of people I didn't recognize, newbs. So I decided to play a little trick, when combat started, instead of opening up with the "little" spells, as is typical. I let the big one rip (one that did 20 points of damage, in a game where that would drop most front line fighters in a single shot without the proper buffs)
and I MISSED with the dang spell packet ARGGGG!
Anyway, the ref told us later, that the group almost gave up and went home, because I led with the most powerful spell, they ASSUMED I had a bunch more to toss and was too powerful to take!
In the end they decided to go for it and they won (we were just goblins) BUT maybe three magic immune monsters in a row is on purpose? TO make things looks scarier and more challenging than they really are? Monsters aren't always there on their own choice, many times dungeons are populated with rare species of critters as guard dogs on purpose. Maybe the guy hiding in the dungeon has had a real problem with spell casters before, and this is a good way of handling it?
So if a character in your group decides to build an enchanter, focusing only in Charm-like spells, you won't use any monster inmune to mind effects? Or if someone chooses to build an ilusionists, you bar True seeing from the monsters spell lists?Thanks for thr opinions, and I guess that the spell selection my player took may not be optimal for this AP. However, this player is not looking to create the optimal, power gaming character. He creates a background and then builds the character to fit the story. In this case he decided to create an elemental sorcerer that favors electrical attacks. Since I actively in courage this type of character building I do not want to penalize him for his build.
Magic Immunity is a bit more difficult to get around for a newer player than immunity to a specific type of ability (like charm). And the problem, according to the OP, wasn't magic immunity, but having three monsters with that in a row.
Plus, since the party apparently also has a wizard, it's possible that he/she's the one taking care of buffs, leaving the offensive ones to the sorcerer. It's not entirely fair to say that's porr planning. Spells that go through SR are also somewhat rare, and less likely to be known by less experienced players. Just the other day, my friend who's been playing 3.5 for at least 5 years found out that acid arrow ignores SR.
Sure. But he said he won't actively punish someone who builds a character following a concept. I wonder if some of his players decide to play a character based in a concept (let's say, a sorcerer based on charm/compulsion spells), and that character *decides* to take nothing but mind affecting spells (just like the lightning sorcerer can decide to take nothing but shocking spells). Does that mean the campaign will not have any mind affecting monsters at all? Or if a player decides to play a poisoner rogue/alchemist, wouldn't appear any poison inmune creature? Or swarms if someone decides to play a fighter?What about lightning resistant creatures? What about flying creatures, if someone decides to play a character concept that forego any ranged weapon? What if the group have 5 players, one of each? Would the campaign miss mindless, poison inmunes, swarms, flying monsters and magic inmune creatures altogether?? It's a legitime option, just I'm curious if this option is for everybody, or just (another) thing for magic users.
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Part of the reason why I have been running prepared material is so my players can have a sense of accomplishment for beating an AP. Sort of like how old school players had that shared feeling and awe at somebody who survived the tomb of horrors, or the mega adventure that was Against the Giants.
Lowering the difficulty of the encounters takes something away from that accomplishment IMHO. Its like bragging that you beat battletoads, but don't add that you used the game genie to do it. I prefer my games to be NES hard, but beatable. Most of the time the APs tend to be tough but fair, which is more like SNES hard (as opposed to Xbox easy, or press triangle to win).
The only direction I adjust encounters for parties is harder, and only if the party is larger than the module is built for. Making encounters easier only rewards lazy play, and encourages imbalanced party/character designs. The magic immune encounters should be a warning sign that sorcerer should pay attention to, similar to how doing poorly on a pop quiz should be a warning sign to study harder. If the sorcerer doesn't take heed that his build is fatally flawed, then he should face the consequences.
The encounters in book 2 still look to be on the easy side for my group (one that I've run games for over 3 years, 51 sessions a year, 4-7 hours each), but it won't be the cake walk that was the dungeon in book 1.
'expect'? You expect my sorcerer to carry those scrolls? WELL thanks for buying them, I'll let you know when I have a moment free to cast one... the life of a sorcerer is very busy you know.
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You have so many encounters some are bound to be outsie your characters range of talents. I'm certain looking ahead the sorcere will feel better after these three encounters and other characters will feel just as diminished. Besides a challenge like this one will help shape the character - now he'll probbaly change his spell selection.
Could just give the character a staff of spells that ignore SR.
Casters need to get the message that they need to prepare for constructs and golems in this AP in particular.these three creatures ARE that warning.
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Casters need to get the message that they need to prepare for constructs and golems in this AP in particular.these three creatures ARE that warning.
I too agree with the above.
If a player can't learn to cope and adapt then the GM should wipe them and not think twice about bringing them down. Players need to learn that encounters are not going to be a cake walk and if that is what they want then they might want to invest in RPG games like Sailor Moon and Strawberry Shortcake.
Casters need to get the message that they need to prepare for constructs and golems in this AP in particular.these three creatures ARE that warning.I too agree with the above.
If a player can't learn to cope and adapt then the GM should wipe them and not think twice about bringing them down. Players need to learn that encounters are not going to be a cake walk and if that is what they want then they might want to invest in RPG games like Sailor Moon and Strawberry Shortcake.
Yeah, that seems like a great thing to say to get players interested in Pathfinder. Call me crazy, but when I have completely new players or relatively inexperienced ones, then I will actually lower the difficulty, especially since some of my players didn't even yet know there's a such thing as magic immunity. They did learn it in this part, but I decided not to make anyone feel useless by not having three of the enemies in a row have such an immunity.
And I'm not the kind of person who never offs PCs. In fact, we've had 3 deaths so far in Shattered Star. I just prefer encounter variety, and a more blanced selection of opponents to making a character near useless for a few encounters in a row.
The occassional magic immune monster is fine, of course. I just have a problem against it when players are all low level, have relatively limited resources, and for 3 fights in a row, only have a handful of spells that will work.
Why is it the fault of the designers if a sorcerer is a one trick pony?And why didn't the sorcerer buy scrolls or wands of spells he didn't take to make himself rounded out? He has Prestige Points. Its not about power gaming its about being prepared. When my friends fought a red dragon and all cried about how they couldn't fly I asked them,
"What level are you?"
"Nine."
"And why could you not afford a single Potion of Fly?"
"Well becau.."
"Because you WEREN'T THINKING McFLY! HELLO!".
Hehe this actually made me giggle.
Call me crazy, but when I have completely new players or relatively inexperienced ones, then I will actually lower the difficulty, especially since some of my players didn't even yet know there's a such thing as magic immunity. They did learn it in this part, but I decided not to make anyone feel useless by not having three of the enemies in a row have such an immunity.
But the characters/players aren't low level/completely new at this point. They are at least level 4, possibly even level 5 by the time they run into these. If they haven't learned that they need to adapt their tactics for different circumstances, then you as GM, aren't doing your job.
Sorry if that comes off as confrontational, but Adventuring is supposed to be dangerous. That is why only socially maladjusted, borderline homicidals do it. Everyone with a lick of sense stays far away from that sort of activity.|
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Casters need to get the message that they need to prepare for constructs and golems in this AP in particular.these three creatures ARE that warning.I too agree with the above.
If a player can't learn to cope and adapt then the GM should wipe them and not think twice about bringing them down. Players need to learn that encounters are not going to be a cake walk and if that is what they want then they might want to invest in RPG games like Sailor Moon and Strawberry Shortcake.Yeah, that seems like a great thing to say to get players interested in Pathfinder. Call me crazy, but when I have completely new players or relatively inexperienced ones, then I will actually lower the difficulty, especially since some of my players didn't even yet know there's a such thing as magic immunity. They did learn it in this part, but I decided not to make anyone feel useless by not having three of the enemies in a row have such an immunity.
And I'm not the kind of person who never offs PCs. In fact, we've had 3 deaths so far in Shattered Star. I just prefer encounter variety, and a more blanced selection of opponents to making a character near useless for a few encounters in a row.
The occassional magic immune monster is fine, of course. I just have a problem against it when players are all low level, have relatively limited resources, and for 3 fights in a row, only have a handful of spells that will work.
The players are already interested in playing or they would not be. By the time they reach the point where the meet the golems they are 5th level. If they have not been able to adapt by the time they reach this point then they need to learn too. This is a lesson. There are creatures that are very resistant and or outright immune to melee damage and or ranged damage. There are creatures that are highly resistant to magic as well as being outright immune. We adapt to it. You learn that as a player we are going to come across things like this and we need to figure out the way out of it safely and with a modicum of respect for said creature later on.
This is "normal" as a group and as players. If as GM's we are afraid to teach the players this then we should not be GMing then. If they get in to trouble there is always an option to RUN away... if they can't do this then they die. Coming back to fight another day and being more prepared at that time is what it is about.
If as a GM you feel the need to change the encounter to make it so they are not immune then I am glad I am not a player in your group.
I have as a GM brought a great many people in to this game to play and feel special when they accomplish something that was hard to do. This is one of those times. If and when they do overcome the encounter(s) they feel like they truly accomplished something and are truly heroic!! If they get it handed to them like you are suggesting what is the point? It is not very heroic then at all and no sense of accomplishment at all. That is sad.
You could add Adamantine weapons, or a Golembane scarab to a treasure hoard as a flag.
If my memory serves me, there is a golembane scarab in the treasure near the end of the previous AP book!
LOL, although my players chose to sell it in the city before travelling to the Lady's Light DOH!
My point is that WITH THIS ADVENTURE PATH, the players need to prep for constructs, OR THE DM HAS TO REWRITE A SIGNIFICANT CHUNK OF ONE ADVENTURE. I'm not making a "get tough with your players" piece. It's a specific feature of this adventure path.
You could add Adamantine weapons, or a Golembane scarab to a treasure hoard as a flag.
If my memory serves me, there is a golembane scarab in the treasure near the end of the previous AP book!
LOL, although my players chose to sell it in the city before travelling to the Lady's Light DOH!
Not only is there a golembane scarab, you don't even have to fight the golem. It's literally on an empty island and not guarding anything useful, you're on boats at the time, and you have no reason to get into a fight with it unless you pick one, and you can leave at any time, while the golem cannot. Heck, you can get it to join your party pretty easily if you have a hat of disguise--my group, which had a wizard and a theme sorcerer too, did that. The adventure specifically expects that you might do so, mentions that it automatically works, and contains information for what happens if you do (it really freaks out the final boss, for one). Any group that lost a fight to that golem has a serious death wish.
We are playing an entirely different game.
I'm with you on that. My socially-well-adjusted party has gotten a lot of mileage out of Diplomacy, Bluff, Disguise, friendly conversations, and subterfuge. You can potentially avoid all but two or three encounters in Lady's Light if you use a fairly-simple ruse (and back it up with good skills).
I'm totally with you in that. I drop really heavy hints each session that they don't have to slaughter everything they come across. So far to little effect!!
Standard response for the solo sorc encountering magic immune golems:
Step one, cast Fly
Step two, cast Acid Splash
Is it a Clay Golem?
Yes--> fly away
No--> Repeat Step Two
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Golem..
Caster casts - Create Pit, Hungry Pit, Acid Splash, Cone of Cold and so many many more spells. This is easy peasy folks. If all you have memorized is what the golems are immune too.. then LEAVE and come back with some that they are NOT immune too!!!
Fly is perfect BTW as it keeps YOU away from them and free reign over hurting/destroying them.