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Ok I am curious about what you guys think about a situation that came up while I played in someone else's game.
We were adventuring in a home brew world inspired by warhammer fantasy RP's setting. It used a mix of 3.5e and Pathfinder as well as a few other d20 supplements. I was playing Freya (prideful Dwarf fighter/barbarian), my friend was playing Luna (flirty elf ranger(archery style)), munchkin was playing Krell (unscrupulous ratman thief/ninja or assassin build), hound was playing Peter (enigmatic human priest), and mr perfect was GMing.
We had been hired to clear the undead out of an old graveyard by the locals and had been rather successful in removing this stain of evil from the reclaimed cemetery. So successful that a visiting lord from the Empire asked us to be his guests at a dinner in our honor. We were all given noble finery to wear and allowed plenty of time to clean ourselves up for this important and handsome figure. After all the regal ceremony starting the evening... the lord was taking credit publicly for our actions (his money did hire us, so it was sort of accurate). Then we entered the mayors house to begin our private meal and entertainment. The lord was absolutely charming and made passes at both Freya and Luna. Luna went all flirty over him and Freya decided she wasn't going to get brushed aside so easily despite not truly being interested in starting something with a human regardless of how charming he was. Her pride was on the line so she pursued the lord with plenty of dwarven class and even managed to out dance Luna during the ball. Personally I wonder what was really going on and if this was just a distraction for our characters devised by a clever GM so we wouldn't be too interested in all the back room deals Krell and Peter were making. Either way, though I fought a good fight for the lord's attention, Luna won and she went off to be alone with him after the party. That morning the three of us got geared up for our next mission and wondered where Luna was. We left word at the inn we would wait for her at the town gates. Plenty of jokes flew about just what sort of shameless behavior Luna and Lord Charming had been engaged in over the night. When Luna did appear she was enraged and demanded we all head back and assassinate Lord Charming. I tried to calm her down and find out what Lord not-so-Charming-after-all had done but she wouldn't talk about it. She was however adamant that we kill the beast. I balked... I wanted a reason to go killing, Freya was good after all. I needed to know I was doing the right thing. She exploded with anger and attacked me instead. Well after the initial wound she gave me during the totally-surprised-that-a-friend-would-attack-me round the battle quickly turned my way and I accidentally killed her after two critical hits with an axe back to back. Krell and Peter just watched us and Krell called out "cat fight" while Peter laughed. Now we apologized to each other and the game will continue after she makes a new character... probably a snobby elf wizard of some sort if she doesn't change her mind.
But she wasn't just angry in character and while she is putting it all behind her she still won't talk about what happened. The GM is also silent on the matter. And I am wondering who was at fault here? The likely candidate seems to be the GM... BUT her anger was directed at the three of us NOT the GM. The only things I can see that may have upset her were competing with her for whatever subplot story element the not-so-Charming-after-all Lord was building or refusing to just murder someone without knowing why. Was she wrong? It did feel like betrayal when she attacked me. Was I wrong? Was this somehow Krell or Peter's fault secretly and she just attacked me for not seeing it? Did she overhear some of the off color jokes while she was in the secret room playing out this subplot one on one with the GM?
Maybe the internet can shed some new way of looking at this I am not seeing.
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Pretty sure the only person who's going to know why she's pissed off is the one who's pissed off.
I suggest you ask her.
What level are the characters? Maybe Luna was under the effects of a spell.
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what the-
You're asking us to guess at things only the player and the GM know.
From your description, this involves more than just "in-character" stuff. You need to talk to the player and your GM if you want to fully understand what happened, or determine who, if anyone was right or wrong.
I could speculate on a million different things but there's only one correct set of facts here. Talk with the people who have those facts, 'cause it sure ain't the Internet that does.
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This sounds like an attempt at a good story plot that just got AXED!
*sunglasses*
YYYYYEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH!!!
If she were acting weird about the GM too, I'd expect he crossed a line and she's not willing to play a flirty character under his control, or acknowledge that it happened at all.
If they do seem fine, then I'd guess they're setting up a mystery to be solved in game, so her silence on the matter is antispoiler, not personal.
I'd suggest talking to her again, asking if she's ok with you investigating the matter in game, or if she'd rather you dropped the matter altogether. If the latter, then I'd be more concerned, but if neither will talk I don't see anything to be done about it.
In the future, I'm sure you won't forget about the option to -4 for nonlethal.
Rynjin, I tried asking her. She won't talk about it.
Ciaran Barnes, we are 6th level. Well now Luna's new character will be 5th.
Lamontius, I am here because the people who know won't talk. My own ideas run in circles, so YES I am looking for people to help me brainstorm what might be going on.
KHShadowrunner, OOC solutions are not proving fruitful. Something was going on that I was not a part of... and I got a weird email from Peter's player telling me to drop it. So he is either concerned about me going crazy finding out what happened or he knows something and isn't saying either. Hmmm... Peter can't raise dead and we aren't rich, BUT I think speak with dead is a 3rd level cleric spell. Maybe if Peter can be convinced in game to help find answers. But... in character Peter loves mysteriousness if he learned the truth he would likely keep it to himself. Still it's worth a try. I will bounce the idea off him in an email.
KHShadowrunner, Lamontius, yes yes I axed the subplot... literally. That does make sense, what if Luna's player and the GM were planning some sort of thing where Luna gets turned on the party and I ruined it by accidentally killing her. That would explain why she is mad at us three and me in particular and not mad at the GM.
Peasant, I hope Peter's player is willing to let me continue investigating. Speak with Dead should work... maybe.
Cult of Vorg, Thanks... now I have even more reason to apologize to her. After getting a short sword in the back (thankfully she wasn't a rogue), I just attacked back without thinking. Yeah non-lethal would have been the thing to do. But if I hadn't rolled that last critical Luna would have survived anyway. I will have to remember that in the future non-lethal is much safer than just chopping a problem till it's unconcious.
Does your GM take people aside to talk privately with them, in-character? Does he handle things like that via email, etc?
In other words, was there time for interaction without you there, or did you witness everything that occurred, for interactions between this player and the GM?
It seems like blame could be placed on most parties involved. GM for allowing it to build, Male players for not intervening, Luna for not explaining her reasoning. And yes yourself for using lethal force against an ally. There is non-lethal damage, and you can do it with an axe at a -4 I believe (hitting with the blunt side, whatever) but you can sill take someone down, and knock them unconscious. You should be able to even Crit with non-lethal (hitting just the right spot on the head) I think that would have been a better end.
Though I know that non-lethal damage isn't the 1st thing we think about when being attacked, it is a viable option.
Nobody can help you understand what happened in your own play group if they won't tell you.
Without knowing what happened it is virtually impossible to give any reasonably valuable advice on what to do about it. Speculating wildly about what went on is probably not only useless but counterproductive.
So focus on what you do know. Which is that the GM and Freya's player had some interaction that they won't tell you about, Freya's player felt the situation required that Freya attack you, and in self-defense you managed to kill Freya. You also know that Freya's player and the GM do not appear to be mad at each other, so whatever happened between their characters appears to be something that Freya's player is OK with, and the GM is OK with Freya's reaction.
That's not much to go on.
But, it's enough to say that you are definitely not "in the wrong" here. You role played your character properly. Your character was attacked, you did not provoke the fight.
Now, from this it is my opinion that your GM was cooking something up that Freya's player thought would be cool, but Freya's player pushed the situation too far and ended up with Freya dead.
I personally don't care for this sort of GM instigated inter-party nonsense, but that's just my play style. It has been my experience that this sort of thing almost always ends badly with someone having feelings hurt and some players feeling like the GM is playing favorites.
I personally would have a talk with the GM and let him know that this sort of thing might seem fun, but usually it ends up sorta like this one did.
It seems like blame could be placed on most parties involved. GM for allowing it to build, Male players for not intervening, Luna for not explaining her reasoning. And yes yourself for using lethal force against an ally. There is non-lethal damage, and you can do it with an axe at a -4 I believe (hitting with the blunt side, whatever) but you can sill take someone down, and knock them unconscious. You should be able to even Crit with non-lethal (hitting just the right spot on the head) I think that would have been a better end.
Though I know that non-lethal damage isn't the 1st thing we think about when being attacked, it is a viable option.
I have very, very few characters who would ever take a -4 on their attacks in order to apply non-lethal damage in a life or death fight.
I wouldn't do it in real life either.
I am surprised that no one has commented on the fact that Luna attacked Freya with lethal force first. Freya wanted an explanation on why Luna wanted the beast dead; Luna decided to attack her with lethal force, landing the first blow, only after which Freya fought back.
If I was attacked with lethal force in the real world, I would defend myself. Freya did so too.
I am surprised that no one has commented on the fact that Luna attacked Freya with lethal force first. Freya wanted an explanation on why Luna wanted the beast dead; Luna decided to attack her with lethal force, landing the first blow, only after which Freya fought back.
If I was attacked with lethal force in the real world, I would defend myself. Freya did so too.
I thought I did mention that.
You did, just saw that. Sorry, =)
I have very, very few characters who would ever take a -4 on their attacks in order to apply non-lethal damage in a life or death fight.
I wouldn't do it in real life either.
I'm guessing since they were level 6, that they had been in a party together for a while (aka 'friends') not sure I would swing my axe with full lethal force at an ally, (also cant you auto fail to crit if you want?)
Also saps are like 3 gold, they dont take a -4 to be non-lethal. Pretty simple to be non lethal then.
Kaelizar, one of the most fundamental principles ever discussed on this forum is: "The player is the only one who can role play his/her character." With the closely related corollary: "There is no 'wrong' way to role play a character."
To suggest that the OP here did anything "wrong" by not having her character use non-lethal force pretty much violates both of those principles.
I repeat myself. It doesn't matter to me one bit what you think my character should do in a given situation, particularly one where my character is being attacked with the intent to inflict lethal damage. It is my call as the player to decide if my character would react with lethal force or curl up in a fetal ball on the ground.
The OP chose to return lethal force with lethal force. There is absolutely, positively, nothing wrong with that. Period.
Kaelizar, one of the most fundamental principles ever discussed on this forum is: "The player is the only one who can role play his/her character." With the closely related corollary: "There is no 'wrong' way to role play a character."
I never once stated that they were wrong in the way they role played their character.
But the OP did ask our opinions on "who's to blame" & as I stated, everyone was. Why would Luna go guns blazing on an ally that's just saying no, why not go kill the lord herself.
BUT she did ask our opinion and in my OPINION her self stated 'good character' who wouldn't kill a recently met lord who then uses lethal force against a 'friend' has to at least consider her own actions.
Never stated it was wrong.
Never stated it was wrong.
"blame" = "wrong" Kaelizar. If she did nothing "wrong" then there is no "blame" to pin on her.
I believe absolutely that the OP is completely and utterly blameless in this if it went down as she described.
Yes, non-lethal force is an option that she might consider. But there is no legal or moral restriction in play here that would require her character to use non-lethal force. None at all. She was attacked with lethal force, and she is perfectly able to defend herself with same.
Lamontius, we have a secret room where private stuff can happen during play. Ok it's really just a walk in pantry off the kitchen, but it is fairly sound proof. So no I didn't know what was going on in the private time. Also I have no way of knowing if they emailed before the game... but it seemed rather spontaneous on Luna's behalf.
KHShadowrunner, I am not going to abandon the party to investigate. But if we stay here longer or end up coming in contact with Charming again I will be sure he gets questioned. Oh and Luna did attack me first. Like the others are saying I did have a right to fight back.
Adamantine Dragon, you have Luna and Freya mixed up in your first post. Luna was in a secret situation and then attacked Freya (my character). Thanks for the support as well. I am in total agreement on GM instigated inter-party nonsense too. This certainly didn't end well whatever was going on.
Kaelizar, I didn't think in the heat of the attack about non-lethal and I certainly didn't have time to shop for a sap after she turned on me.
Aranna, heh, going back and reading my first post, it's not so much that I have Freya and Luna "mixed up" as I just used the name "Freya" for both... that's what I get for multi-tasking.
Anyway, this whole non-lethal force discussion is what I consider to be metagaming. If your character would not think about non-lethal force then it's not an issue. In the real world most people don't think about non-lethal force. In the societies that Pathfinder is attempting to emulate, mostly the European middle ages, non-lethal force was not even something that people thought about.
Even today the most common way for a person to die violently is at the hands of a family member or close friend. The idea that the "right" thing to do in a life or death emergency is to carefully attempt to non-lethally disable your opponent is ridiculous. It's like those old westerns where the sheriff never shot the bad guy, he shot the gun out of his hand.
Talk to an actual policeman about that. I have taken personal defense classes. They make it very clear. If someone is trying to kill you, defend yourself as if your life depended on it. Also, the most likely person to try to kill you is a friend or relative.
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Having a close friend suddenly demand you kill someone without saying why, then attacking you with lethal force when you ask why, is a mystery worth investigating.
In hindsight, non-lethal force would have been wiser, but your lethal response correlates well with a real-life situation where it all happens so fast that someone's dead on the floor before your fore-brain kicks in, and then it's too late!
I think it would be appropriate to find out, via e-mail, whether this is OOC or IC, and whether it's okay to role-play the consequences. The OOC thing may take precedence over in-game events, and you don't know which it is without being told by someone who knows. The DM seems the safest bet to avoid bad feeling in real life.
I'd hate to be in your position. The DM has the responsibility to make sure people are having fun, so he can't object to you asking him for guidance in this matter.
Good luck!
Also, this story has intrigued us, so please post what happens next! : )
And I am wondering who was at fault here?
-asking our opinions on who to 'blame' So I have my 2 cents.
Kaelizar, I didn't think in the heat of the attack about non-lethal and I certainly didn't have time to shop for a sap after she turned on me.
-Completely understandable Aranna, Only reason I even consider it now is b/c I had ran a game where 100% of the players used Non-lethal damage against humanoid creatures, And from that I've gained a large respect for non-lethal damage.
I am 100% not blaming a single person, again every party was involved. and it doesn't seem like Luna's player is that upset considering they are fine with rolling up a new character.
And if I wanted to 'blame' anyone I would blame the men. Yes cat fights with hair pulling and torn clothing is one thing, but taking a crit from an axe is another lol.
Aranna I didn't mean to imply any blame on you and Adamantine Dragon I wasn't trying to say she role played wrong at all, but she asked for blame so I gave it. Wasn't trying to start an argument about how people role play their characters.
Malachi Silverclaw, I likely won't know much if anything till next week's game session, but I will update the story then.
Kaelizar, this is actually a pretty big mistake for one of Mr Perfect's games, which makes his silence even more curious. And Luna's player also apologized, she knows she was partly to blame even if she refuses to elaborate on what truly happened. So she didn't have any problems making a new character.
I have very, very few characters who would ever take a -4 on their attacks in order to apply non-lethal damage in a life or death fight.
I wouldn't do it in real life either.
O.o
Really?? If your buddy hit with you something, you would cut him in half without blinking?
Personally, in RL, I'd be using the flat of the blade, fighting defensively or even full parry for a few rounds to find out what's going on!!
IN GAME, I can understand not thinking about it in time... But I could understand some hurt feelings afterwards about it.
I have no doubt that OP didn't WANT to kill her, the Crits just got away from her. It happens. We just finished a SS game where a high level ranger did over 300 pts in one round with crits...
I think the OP was negligent in attacking someone she didn't want to kill....
I think the target was negligent with starting a fight that she wasn't prepared to deal with the consequences...
The DM??? Honestly.... Unless there were charms spells in effect and the PC had no CHOICE to start a fight that got her killed... I'd be annoyed by that!!
If everyone was under their own power... I'd be equally annoyed at a DM interfering with 'in character actions'
I know you've said that neither the GM or Luna is talking to you about it, but I would also try to send an email to the Luna player just asking her if there is any OOC problem. I've had a similar issue (as GM) and my player didn't really respond when I talked to him in person, but opened up better over an email. You really just want to make sure there is no grudges or problems between the two of you OOC. If you let the problem continue (if it exists), there is a bit of a snowball effect. Suddenly, the Luna player might be mad at you for small things in her head, just trying to mentally reinforce a problem she is trying to keep locked up. Getting the problem off her chest earliest is best. Of course, there might not be a problem at all! It's always nice to check, even if it can be a bit awkward between friends.
EDIT: As a side note, as a DM, if there was some 'hidden plot' that wasn't investigated due to the rest of the party shying away, I would reveal what it was once there was a no turning back point. So, if males really don't want to spend more time on this, perhaps your DM will let you know what was going on later in private. Really depends on the DM, though.
I have very, very few characters who would ever take a -4 on their attacks in order to apply non-lethal damage in a life or death fight.
I wouldn't do it in real life either.
O.o
Really?? If your buddy hit with you something, you would cut him in half without blinking?
Personally, in RL, I'd be using the flat of the blade, fighting defensively or even full parry for a few rounds to find out what's going on!!
Easy to say sitting on your easy chair in front of your computer.
If my "buddy" was enraged and coming at me with a machete I would not be thinking about hitting him with the flat of my sword. I would be thinking "OMG, he's gonna kill me!"
Talk is cheap phantom. When you find yourself in a real situation with a real "buddy" who is enraged and murderous coming at you with a lethal weapon, if you are like the vast, vast majority of adrenaline pumped, terrified human beings, you aren't even going to THINK, much less think about non-lethal damage. When the police ask you what happened afterwards you're going to say "I don't know, it was all a blur."
People crack me up. They literally have no idea what their mind and body will do in a life or death crisis. They think it's like a movie or something.
I'd probably end up getting wacked with a machete. Too stunned to believe a friend of mine would ever be that angry at me to wish me dead. After that the shock of pain would take over, and panic/flight would kick in as I would attempt to get away probably taking enough damage to be thoroughly slain. My buddies over all are pretty anal about keeping thier yard implements sharp.
In fact, pretty certain about the dying part.
Greg :P
Greg, yeah, I should have said "assuming you survive, which is highly doubtful" before the "when the police ask you..."
I've seen numerous interviews with combat veterans who have actually had their buddies wig out in combat and attack their "friends", and the shock of having your friend attack you magnifies the whole "fight or flight" response and pretty much every one of them says "Instinct takes over. You do what you are trained to do." Which in the case of combat veterans is usually to do their best to kill the attacker.
That's just reality in the hard, cruel world. Sure it's not very pleasant and most people think they would act differently, but frankly most people are flat wrong.
Yeah it was pretty shocking even in a fantasy recreation context to have a friend trying to kill me. Totally unexpected and hard to think through. I am sure it would be even worse in real life.
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Just a side detail: the concept of nonlethal force wasn't unknown in the middle ages. It's actually quite important, because of one of the key concepts in medieval justice: the Feud.
If you kill someone, his family may want to take revenge. If you only beat him unconscious, the payback will be a lot less severe. While the middle ages were pretty violent, murder wasn't an everyday thing either.
Towns often had displays with knives of various sizes, to educate people about what kind of weapons were considered "reasonable" in that town. Because travel between towns was dangerous (bandits!), a lot of people were armed. Also, the knife used to eat with can also be used to kill with if you get drunk and angry. However, authorities tried to protect public piece by putting limits on just how well-armed the population was.
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Anyway, in this game... talk to Luna's player and the GM, ask if you're okay OOC, because you don't understand what happened, and don't want OOC trouble.
IC, I think what you did was understandable, even if the outcome was unfortunate.
This situation sounds... very odd. I won't speculate on what happened; as other posters have said, it's evidently between the GM and the player. Just something in the situation smells really wrong, especially if you're getting emails from Peter to 'drop it'.
Investigating IC seems a perfectly reasonable course of action, Speak with Dead being a great option. Assuming the group is okay with that? If they act odd, well...
If this is an OOC thing it gets far more nebulous. From your description though this isn't the norm with the group.