Hi!
This thread is kind of in response to the NPC Codex thread about the Spring Attacking monk NPC using Vital Strike.
Is there a design reason why Spring Attack is a special full-round action that lets you move, make a single melee attack, and move again, up to your speed?
Is there a design reason why it does not let you move, make a melee attack as a standard action, then move again during your turn, up to your speed?
The whole Spring Attack + Vital Strike combo seems like it would be a real fun combo. It's pretty feat and requirement intensive (Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Vital Strike, BAB 6+, Dex 13+), so a character would have to be pretty dedicated to get a neat combat combo.
It doesn't seem that over-powered to me. What am I missing?
IIRC Spring Attack was changed specifically to stop it from working with Vital Strike.
Don't see how that's imbalanced, but...
The reason it's a full round action is that you're basically taking three move actions.
1) Move action part 1
2) Standard action to attack
3) Move action part 2
But it could have been defined as the ability to take a move and a standard, but your move can be split between before and after the standard action.
Why was it not defined that way instead of as a standard action?
There IS a barbarian rage power (Bestial Leaper) that DOES let you move, Vital Strike, and move again (up to your total speed).
Fundamentally, it is because the Paizo designers are wedded to the 3.X design paradigm in which mobility in combat comes at the expense of the ability to deal damage. It's part of their early commitment to remaining compatible with D&D materials.
Except with Bestial Leaper (and Fly-By attack)? That design paradigm doesn't seem like a stable marriage to me...
This has NOTHING to do with 3.5 compatability. NOTHING.
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It breaks my verisimilitude to be able to move ten feet, hit someone hard, and then move ten more feet.
Also it would be overpowered. Vital-Springing monks would be everywhere and nobody would bother playing wizards.
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I'm on the side of using spring attack like fly-by.
I.e. move, any STD, re-move.
As mentioned above it's a costly combination (4 feats, even if some pof them can come from bonus feats) and needs bab 6+. this means monk level 8 (and wait level 9 to get vital strike).
I don't see this combo as overpowered for a 9th level PC.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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It's not overpowered to combine Vital Strike and Spring Attack. I houserule that Vital Strike and its ilk can be used with any single attack option you do on your turn. So yes for Spring Attack and charges (but not pounces); no to AOs.
Really ? Or are you being sarcastic ? Wizards don't need to move to use any of their abilities and there abilities are many and awesome. Vital strike is no where near as good as full attack and there are many ways to get a full attack and movement in the same turn (pounce, mounted skirmisher, ride by, fly bye etc). It is only at level 16 and afterwards that a monk actually has better dice damage than a two hand fighter.It breaks my verisimilitude to be able to move ten feet, hit someone hard, and then move ten more feet.
Also it would be overpowered. Vital-Springing monks would be everywhere and nobody would bother playing wizards.
Seems like every single post the user makes is dripping with acidic disdain and sarcasm. This one isn't any different.
I was going to make a Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Vital Strike elf barbarian (extra speed!), but Bestial Leaper is better! I don't even mind the prerequisite--Raging Leaper, as I like to jump around in combat.
But I am curious as to why this design decision was made. Were there play-test issues? Rogues can still use Spring Attack and get a sneak attack in (with a flank-buddy), so why can't others get a damage boost when Spring Attacking?
Fundamentally, it is because the Paizo designers are wedded to the 3.X design paradigm in which mobility in combat comes at the expense of the ability to deal damage. It's part of their early commitment to remaining compatible with D&D materials.
Considering the Pathfinder version was changed to be a full-round action, as opposed to the "when using the attack action, you can move both before and after your attack" of 3.5's Spring Attack, the argument that this has anything to do with backwards-compatibility is flawed.
That version of Spring Attack would have worked with Vital Strike, since both specify using the attack action.
(As an aside, 3.5 also published feats allowing a second and third attack as part of a Spring Attack)
It's not overpowered to combine Vital Strike and Spring Attack. I houserule that Vital Strike and its ilk can be used with any single attack option you do on your turn. So yes for Spring Attack and charges (but not pounces); no to AOs.
I too have to really wonder about the weird complications of what single attack actions can be taken with spring attack, what single attack actions count as standard actions only, and all that mucky-muck. I just don't see a significant game-breaking issue involved at all between taking a move action and a standard action attack like Vital Strike and being able to break that move action into two segments - one before and one after the attack.
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But a Barbarian can Rage Pounce and gain a full attack, the only difference is he can't move afterwards.
So where is the problem in allowing someone to leap in, make "one" attack using Vital Strike, and leap back out with a 4 feat investment?
Is there a crazy combo the design team found that would make the two absolutely game breaking that we don't know about?
All I can really think of is really big weapons and reach. Move-big hit-move back, then wait and make AoOs galore.
But even then, it would require another feat (Combat Reflexes), and some magic or non-standard races. Like a Large greatsword (3d6) or glaive (2d8), possibly a Large race enlarged to Huge (3d8 greatsword or 4d6 glaive).
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All I can really think of is really big weapons and reach. Move-big hit-move back, then wait and make AoOs galore.
But even then, it would require another feat (Combat Reflexes), and some magic or non-standard races. Like a Large greatsword (3d6) or glaive (2d8), possibly a Large race enlarged to Huge (3d8 greatsword or 4d6 glaive).
Your not thinking very hard then.
Fighter under giantform 2 using an impact greatsword will be doing 6d6 with 15ft reach. Using the highest VS line up, that is 24d6. Well + bonuses AND a normal sized opponent will draw 2 AoO at 6d6+ bonuses as they walk up. Game breaking? Not really...but certainly a LOT more powerful then you make it out to be.
also, it's not just that spring attack does 1 move worth of movement and 1 attack.
it also lets you evade all AoOs. that's more than just 1 move + 1 standard.
fly-by attack and barbarian bestial leaper don't include that special function.
charge of course does more than just 1 move + 1 attack, it lets you do 2xmove + 1 attack, and while there is a minor downside, the charge attack also gains a bonus, potentially upgradable by other abilities (e.g. rhinohide armor, lances, etc, etc).
i am more sympathetic to spring attack working with vital strike (charge shouldn't for above reasons), but i see the rationale why it doesn't.
Fighter under giantform 2 using an impact greatsword will be doing 6d6 with 15ft reach. Using the highest VS line up, that is 24d6. Well + bonuses AND a normal sized opponent will draw 2 AoO at 6d6+ bonuses as they walk up. Game breaking? Not really...but certainly a LOT more powerful then you make it out to be.
15-foot reach already lets you attack and then make your opponent eat AoO's to get to you even without using Spring Attack. In fact, it lets you full-attack and do so. That 6d6 Greatsword with 15-foot reach is already scary; Spring Attack isn't even justifying its own three-feat cost.
it also lets you evade all AoOs.
Unless I've missed some errata, it only lets you avoid AoO's from the target of your attack
it also lets you evade all AoOs.Unless I've missed some errata, it only lets you avoid AoO's from the target of your attack
You would be correct. It only stops AoO from the target of the attack. That said, it can be a little less restrictive than Charging. Spring Attack doesn't require you to go in a straight line and you can Spring Attack through your allies. It's good for smaller scale skirmishes where you don't need to charge into the thick of things to close the distance.
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Fighter under giantform 2 using an impact greatsword will be doing 6d6 with 15ft reach. Using the highest VS line up, that is 24d6. Well + bonuses AND a normal sized opponent will draw 2 AoO at 6d6+ bonuses as they walk up. Game breaking? Not really...but certainly a LOT more powerful then you make it out to be.15-foot reach already lets you attack and then make your opponent eat AoO's to get to you even without using Spring Attack. In fact, it lets you full-attack and do so. That 6d6 Greatsword with 15-foot reach is already scary; Spring Attack isn't even justifying its own three-feat cost.
Unless the big bad your fighting happens to have reach...VS for a meteor swarm damage and avoiding a BBEG full attack is quite useful. Course then you don't get 2 AoO...just one...but you would get two from the mooks.
Unless the big bad your fighting happens to have reach...
So let me get this straight: the reason Vital Strike + Spring Attack isn't allowed is that it would give a specific build, which needs to be buffed with an eighth-level Personal-range spell and already does massive damage and has 15-foot reach even without Spring Attack, an advantage over opponents with 10-foot reach. At the cost of several feats.
So, uh, remind me, what are wizards generally doing by the time Greater Vital Strike becomes available?
So, uh, remind me, what are wizards generally doing by the time Greater Vital Strike becomes available?
They're killing the fighters that are sitting there contemplating how to pull off extreme chained combo mechanics, of course!
You need CL 15 to get an 8th level spell, and BAB 16 to get Greater Vital Strike, so probably at 19th level if you are a Fighter 3/Wizard 6/Eldritch Knight 10 will be able to pull off that combo, after investing in 6 feats.
From a design perspective, the reason I can think of is: Charge + Pounce and move + Vital Strike allow the target (assuming they survive) a chance to easily retaliate, since movement ends when the character attacks the target; Spring Attack moves the character making the attack out of easy retaliation range and denies the target attacks of opportunity from the movement to boot. It prevents a case of "I'm going to move in, attack with the equivalent of a full melee attack sequence, and move away again, and you can do nothing."
I know a lot of players would get upset over monsters/NPCs with high movement speeds using Spring Attack + Vital Strike while moving from cover to cover. Everything PCs can do, monsters and NPCs can do, after all.
Yeah, but once you Vital Spring Attack once, the next time you do it against a canny opponent, they'll ready an action to hit you when you're in reach. Or drop you in a create pit. Or fill you full of arrows. Or drop some caltrops in your path.
Basically, there are lots counters.
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I actually asked this question in the Ask James Jacobs anything thread. His response was
That's a question for Jason to answer more fully. I've asked and argued with him before on the subject, but he's stood firm on his ruling for his reasons—I don't want to repeat those reasons here because I don't remember them 100% and I don't want to put words in his mouth. But since he's the Lead Designer, and I respect him, after I presented my arguments and points and still didn't change his mind, I conceded the ruling to him.
Personally, I like any option that takes the mindset of "If I don't make a full attack, I'm wasting my character's potential, so I'll make some terrible tactical decisions based on the fact that if I move more than 5 feet, I'll lose the ability to make that full attack!" out of the game. Allowing Vital Strike to combine with charge and Spring Attack and the like does just that. It prevents higher level characters from standing around making five foot steps or wasting actions delaying in the hope that the monster comes to them. (Example: In a game I ran 2 days ago, we essentially had a TPK because of poor tactics used in just this situation.)
So I believe it's a question best directed at Mr. Bulmahn. I eagerly await the reasoning behind this design decision.
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Unless the big bad your fighting happens to have reach...So let me get this straight: the reason Vital Strike + Spring Attack isn't allowed is that it would give a specific build, which needs to be buffed with an eighth-level Personal-range spell and already does massive damage and has 15-foot reach even without Spring Attack, an advantage over opponents with 10-foot reach. At the cost of several feats.
No, I think even with this combo, I hardly think it is something even remotely game breaking. I was just saying that using the rule of VS+spring attack isn't as weak as smilodan suggest it was.
Yeah, but once you Vital Spring Attack once, the next time you do it against a canny opponent, they'll ready an action to hit you when you're in reach. Or drop you in a create pit. Or fill you full of arrows. Or drop some caltrops in your path.
Basically, there are lots counters.
Ready
The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round.
Initiative Consequences of Readying: Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the readied action. If you come to your next action and have not yet performed your readied action, you don't get to take the readied action (though you can ready the same action again). If you take your readied action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round.
Distracting Spellcasters: You can ready an attack against a spellcaster with the trigger “if she starts casting a spell.” If you damage the spellcaster, she may lose the spell she was trying to cast (as determined by her Spellcraft check result).
Readying to Counterspell: You may ready a counterspell against a spellcaster (often with the trigger “if she starts casting a spell”). In this case, when the spellcaster starts a spell, you get a chance to identify it with a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell level). If you do, and if you can cast that same spell (and are able to cast it and have it prepared, if you prepare spells), you can cast the spell as a counterspell and automatically ruin the other spellcaster's spell. Counterspelling works even if one spell is divine and the other arcane.
A spellcaster can use dispel magic to counterspell another spellcaster, but it doesn't always work.
Readying a Weapon against a Charge: You can ready weapons with the brace feature, setting them to receive charges. A readied weapon of this type deals double damage if you score a hit with it against a charging character.
And then the spring attacker, after exchanging Vital Strikes on their second attack, drinks a potion or otherwise heals while you stand around waiting and doing nothing. The other choices, other than readying a ranged attack, hamper your ability to attack as much as the other guy. Of course, once the opponent sees you pull out a bow, it's time to sunder the bow as part of the Spring Attack (or cast/read from a scroll protection from normal missiles).
Basically, by "turtling" with a readied action, you are ceding control of the pace of the combat to your opponent(s). Even if it does nothing else, that's a huge advantage.
Note that Spring attack, vital strike and Crane Wing is a terrifically potent combo.
==Aelryinth