Forgive me if I've somehow missed the answer to this, but how are casters from the Advanced Player's Guide and the Magus from Ultimate Magic affected by Metamagic feats?
In the Core rulebook it states that "wizards and divine spellcasters" must prepare their spellslots with metamagic in advance, and that "sorcerers and bards" must take extended time to spontaneously cast metamagic on a spell.
I haven't been able to find a ruling on any other classes. Does this mean that the magus does not need to prepare his/her metamagic in advance (and if so, how is it supposed to be used)? And do all spontaneous casters from advanced players guide forgo the "extended casting time" penalty?
I'm asking because I know this will come up with a player sooner or later and I want to be able to give a definite answer by RAW.
Prepared casters work like the wizard and spontanous casters work like the sorcerer.
Prepared casters work like the wizard and spontanous casters work like the sorcerer.
Can you give me a link so I have something to show my players?
Prepared casters work like the wizard and spontanous casters work like the sorcerer.Can you give me a link so I have something to show my players?
A link? No. Logic and process of elimination? Yes.
Wizards and Divine Spellcasters: Wizards and divine spellcasters must prepare their spells in advance. During preparation, the character chooses which spells to prepare with metamagic feats (and thus which ones take up higher-level spell slots than normal).
Sorcerers and Bards: Sorcerers and bards choose spells as they cast them. They can choose when they cast their spells whether to apply their metamagic feats to improve them. As with other spellcasters, the improved spell uses up a higher-level spell slot. Because the sorcerer or bard has not prepared the spell in a metamagic form in advance, he must apply the metamagic feat on the spot. Therefore, such a character must also take more time to cast a metamagic spell (one enhanced by a metamagic feat) than he does to cast a regular spell. If the spell's normal casting time is a standard action, casting a metamagic version is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. (This isn't the same as a 1-round casting time.) The only exception is for spells modified by the Quicken Spell metamagic feat, which can be cast as normal using the feat.
So, four categories of spellcasters are covered. Wizards, Sorcerers, Bards, and all divine spellcasters. That's enough for all the core classes, but there's also the Inquisitor, Magus, Oracle, Summoner, and Witch. Lets look at each one::
An inquisitor casts divine spells drawn from the inquisitor spell list. She can cast any spell she knows at any time without preparing it ahead of time, assuming she has not yet used up her allotment of spells per day for the spell’s level.
So, an Inquisitor is a divine spellcaster. That means they "must prepare their spells in advance" and when they do, they "choose which spells to prepare with metamagic feats". But they can't prepare their spells in advance, because their class feature is spontaneous casting! But they also aren't a "sorcerer or bard", so they can't use those rules either. So clearly, since Inquisitors can only use metamagic feats when they prepare their spells, and they can't prepare their spells, they can't use metamagic feats at all!
A magus casts arcane spells drawn from the magus spell list. A magus must choose and prepare his spells ahead of time.
A Magus is an arcane spellcaster, but is not a wizard, sorcerer, or bard. That makes their case much simpler than the Inquisitor - they simply don't meet any of the criteria to have rules to use metamagic feats, so they can't.
An oracle casts divine spells drawn from the cleric spell lists. She can cast any spell she knows without preparing it ahead of time.
See Inquisitor.
A summoner casts arcane spells drawn from the summoner spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, assuming he has not yet used up his allotment of spells per day for the spell’s level.
The summoner, like the magus, doesn't fall into any of our four categories. No Metamagic for you!
A witch casts arcane spells drawn from the witch spell list. A witch must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time.
Likewise Witch.
-------
So now you're left with two options. Either you say that no class that isn't from the core book can use metamagic feats, or you say that spontaneous casters (including sorcerers and bards) can use them by the sorcerer/bard rules, and that prepared casters (including wizards and all core divine casters) can use them by the wizard/cleric/ranger/paladin rules.
Your choice, but one makes far more sense than the other.
That is what I'd assume as well, but so far the only players I've played with that use extensive metamagic are the ones that will argue until their blue in the face if there's no RAW ruling.
Don't get me wrong, the intent to me seems obvious. But my post isn't so much clarification for myself as it is for my players.
Although I may just direct them to your post instead... ;)
That is what I'd assume as well, but so far the only players I've played with that use extensive metamagic are the ones that will argue until their blue in the face if there's no RAW ruling.
Don't get me wrong, the intent to me seems obvious. But my post isn't so much clarification for myself as it is for my players.
Although I may just direct them to your post instead... ;)
Feel free. I had fun writing it!
Are the ones arguing it the ones trying to use metamagic as an advanced class? Just tell them that it is the way it is, and if they don't like it, they can't use metamagic at all, because there's no rules to permit it. Remember, Pathfinder is an exception based system. You can't do something unless you have rule text which permits you to do it. So, if they argue the RAW, point out that there is none. :)
If they're not an advanced class, why is it coming up?
There is never a need for players to argue until they're blue in the face. It is the GM's job to make rulings when the rules are unclear or don't make sense. In this case, the GM has two options: rule that advanced classes get no metamagic, or rule that spontaneous casters use the sorcerer rules while prepared casters use the wizard rules. Both are valid, other options make no sense.
I do wonder what happens with prepared casters that can cast limited spells spontaneously. Do they follow the sorcerer rules for those spells, or can they not use metamagic on those spells?
If the rules cover that particular case (I have no idea), then that's also a hint about how to rule other cases. If the rules don't cover this, then it's another area for the GM to make the call.
(And of course when the GM makes a bad call that all players disagree with, the GM should listen and probably change his ruling. But when it's a single player arguing, he's wasting everybody else's time and should shut up.)
When the rules for metamagic feats were written there were no divine spontanous casters. That's why they wrote: wizards and divine casters.
Just read it as: prepared casters do X, spontanous casters do Y and you're good to go. preventing oracles and inquisitors from using metamagic was most likely not the intend.
That is what I'd assume as well, but so far the only players I've played with that use extensive metamagic are the ones that will argue until their blue in the face if there's no RAW ruling.
Don't get me wrong, the intent to me seems obvious. But my post isn't so much clarification for myself as it is for my players.
Although I may just direct them to your post instead... ;)Feel free. I had fun writing it!
Are the ones arguing it the ones trying to use metamagic as an advanced class? Just tell them that it is the way it is, and if they don't like it, they can't use metamagic at all, because there's no rules to permit it. Remember, Pathfinder is an exception based system. You can't do something unless you have rule text which permits you to do it. So, if they argue the RAW, point out that there is none. :)
If they're not an advanced class, why is it coming up?
Actually, the one case we had was a magus trying to use a metamagic feat spontaneously. I knew it sounded off when he did it, so I wanted to do my research.
As for the arguing, I'm a newer GM so some of the players don't like to take my rulings seriously :/ that's more of a social problem though. Having a RAW ruling just keeps the arguments from happening.
so far the only players I've played with that use extensive metamagic are the ones that will argue until their blue in the face if there's no RAW ruling.
So? Invoke rule zero.
I am the RAW!
There is no RAW. The rules assume that the players and GMs are logical people capable of inferring things from the rules.
Alternatively The RAW is that summoners and magi can't use metamagic feats. The metamagic feats section doesn't list how they work, so they don't, in much the same way that a fighter can't use metamagic either since they aren't listed in there. Two can play the game of ridiculousness.
Don't let your players take advantage of your newness. That's not very friendly.