Best Sniper: Ninja or Rogue?

[Barry Armstrong]

Yeah, Alchemist is great, but their limitations are too many.

Straight ZAM or ZAM/Ninja seems to fit what I want unless I went with a sniping, ray-shooting spellcaster.

And if he's found or trapped, he's a glass cannon.

Dead Shot from Gunslinger has the MECHANIC I want to build around for the "BAM, you're dead", but even that doesn't have enough OOMPH. I'd want 100+ HP of ouchies in one shot, or that many in a full-attack with Clustered Shots.

I wonder if I could do a Kobold Bushwhacker/Mysterious Stranger and dual wield pistols to make that Dead Shot/Aimed Shot deed mechanic more deadly....

[Azaelas Fayth]

That Kobold Idea sounds fun...

[Barry Armstrong]

Azaelas Fayth wrote:

That Kobold Idea sounds fun...

Indeed. I think I'm fairly set on a Kobold Gunslinger 8/Ninja 12 with the Bushwhacker and Mysterious Stranger Archetypes.

Mechanic to be centered around sniping and the deeds Dead Shot, Shifty Shot, Focused Aim, and Sneak Attack (all of which stack) plus all the damage bonuses I can get from stuff like Deadly Aim. Add in the Assassinate Ninja Trick and you've got a good chunk of damage coming at you every other round in one deadly lump plus a Fort-Save-or-Die. As long as I throw some criticals and killing blows in there, the Grit should refresh.

So far my plans are:

- Sniper's Goggles to sneak attack at firearm's max range
- Snipe with no penalty (Kobold Feat and Stealthy Sniper talent)
- Remain Invisible even during the attack with Vanishing Trick/Invis Blade
- Every other bonus to Stealth I can afford
- Every bonus to Attack and Damage I can afford
- Every bonus to Ki Pool and Grit Pool I can afford

Am I forgetting anything important or missing something obvious?

[Errant Mercenary]

I'm currently building a sniper as a "one hit" wonder. Based around Vital Strike and Kensai 4th level Max out your damage. Perhaps a large or double heavy crossbow (2d8), but bows give str to damage too.

Spells like Named Bullet (lvl3 ranger, auto crit) and Aspect of the Falcon (ranger 1, x3 crit modifier), gravity bow, plus the maxing weapon damage or increasing multiplier from the Kensai, make for a hefty sniper.

Be invisible, pick your target, buff, destroy. Throw in Arrow Erruption for surprises.

I'm making it an int archer...he'll be using Kirin Strike.

Here's a rough sketch of my build:

Kensai:4
Vivisectionist/mindchemist:3 for sneak, potion brewing, xint knowledge check
Fighter Unarmed:1
Arcane Archer:2 for AoE arrows
Arcane Trickster:X

This will give him Magus spell progression, Arcanas, max full base dmg on demand, Sneak Attack progression, Kirin Style/Strike. Making him a very efficient assasin.
This is not to compete with a full attacking archer, that'd be stupid.

Feats to consider:
BullsEye shot, Deadly Aim, Vital Strike chain, IUS/KirinStyle/KirinStrike.

Alternative routes:
Scout Rogue Arch (combinable with ninja): At 8th level move 10 feat and get Sneak Attack on one attack.

Other stuff:
He'll be a potion maniac, using the Alchemist's Allocate Alchemy to chug a potion but not consume it, depending on the situation. Up to level 3 spells. Named Bullet, Greater Invisibility (thank you Summoner spell progression!), Venomous Bolt..

Melee:
The guy still have Spell Combat, Spell Strike, several escape spells.

Hope that at least gave you some ideas :)

[Errant Mercenary]

Some good suggestions and ideas in this thread!

Dead Shot of gunslinger + Kensai's Perfect Strike is SCARY.

[Errant Mercenary]

Another option:

Work in Shatter Defenses and Deadly Stroke.

Fighter level 8 minimum (or samurai 8, kensai 11).
Find ways to add shaken (Ranger Falconer, Rogue Rake i think, etc).
At BAB 11 things should be exploding if you have enough + modifiers.

I.e. level 11
Weapon Training +2 +2(glovesdueling)
Deadly Aim: +4 (or +6 one level after)
STR modifier: +5
Weapon Spec: +2
+weapon: +1+1d6element
+Kirin Style (i'd throw it in): +8

4+4+5+2+1+8+1d6(3) = +27
Deadly Stroke 27x2 = +54 +double weapon damage (2d10?)

This at level 11, without looking into buffs or manuch stuff.

And you can still move.

(Note that the build I posted above is MUCH more versatile. This one just does damage. The other is getting about 50 damage at 8th level guaranteed plus spells and shenanigans)

[Fastmover]

Magus 12 / Arcane Archer 8

Magus Arcana that matters; Empowered Magic,Maximized Magic and possibly Lingering Pain.

Feat that doesn't matter but is fun; Widen Spell.

Trait needed for Widen Spell; Magical Lineage

Ok, now spend Magus Arcane points to add to your Arcane Archer's Enhanced Arrows to make the bow a +5 Flame Bursting, Shocking Burst, Frost Bursting, Keen.

Then Imbue an either Seeking Arrow or Phase Arrow that has distance with an Empowered, Maximized, Widened DETONATE.

The target takes the arrow hit damge of rediculus then automatically takes (I think 8d8) 64 damage unsaved, while 60ft around him takes a maxed 15d8 (Half with a successful reflex save) and 60ft beyond that takes maxed 8d8 (Half with a successful reflex save.)

Dodge that.

[Javaed]

In my opinion, the Ninja makes for a better ranged sniper simply due to the fact that you don't have to spend a Feat or a Trick to gain a Ki Pool. A Human Ninja can have Point Blank Shot & Precise Shot right at first level and then pick up Vanishing Trick at second level.

Vanish lets you get in 1 sneak attack per Vanish, so you have the potential of 2-3 ranged sneak attacks per combat, instead of the normal 0-1 you'd get otherwise (Sniping can be very unreliable).

For some extra fun, splash in some Bard (Dawnflower Dervish) and you can build a decent Ninja Switch Hitter.

[StreamOfTheSky]

AndIMustMask wrote:

i'm actually curious as to how an archer spellcaster would stack up to the archer ranger, fighter, and zen archer builds (theres some great ones posted in the "ultimate archer" thread). nowadays i'm rather skeptical when someones says "spellcaster = better" without something to back it up--i've seen too many schrodinger's wizards.

that's not to say they can't be great, don't get me wrong. i'm just no sure they'd be better just from having spells (i mean any old shmuck can have ranks in UMD and wand it up).

The thread is about sniping, not archery. Of course, I meant the caster uses spells to defeat enemies, along with spells for invisibility, flight, etc... to go unseen. If the OP meant archer snipers, an Eldritch Knight or Myrmidiarch Magus is still a better option than rogue.

To me, a sniper can sneak, kill from far away, kill relatively quickly, stuff like that. Thus, spellcasters are the best at it. A rogue can't sneak attack beyond 30 ft without a 20,000 gp item and the Stealth skill is *severely* lacking compared to spells and many, many monster senses. They are terrible snipers. Even a fighter with a bow can use the distance modifiers to win stealth checks from afar, and can do much more damage and hit much more accurately from very long range than a rogue can.

[bjuandy]

One-Shot, one kill sniper types will almost always use the vital strike line of feats and you will want to pick up Shot on the Run to round out your lineup. In general, ranged is pretty feat hungry so it's always a fight to get the feats you want. This particular version uses the Slayer and relies on abusing his access to the Ranger bonus feats to bypass the Dodge/Mobility requirement, and is a stalker-killer.

Human Slayer w/ Sniper Archetype

1: Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2: Deadly Range (Obligated)
3: Deadly Aim
4: Ranger Combat Style: Focused Shot
5: Skill Focus: Stealth
6: Ranger Combat Style: Parting Shot
7: Vital Strike
8: Combat Trick: Bullseye Shot or Poison Use
9: Devastating Strike
10: Ranger Combat Style: Shot on the Run
11: Improved Vital Strike

This particular class only hits its stride after Level 7, where the aforementioned Vital Strike kicks in, and until then you won't have the benefit of Rapid Shot. In exchange, once you hit 7 you can already move around the battlefield very well with Parting Shot and it gets better with Shot on the Run at level 10. This is pretty much the only alternative to the standard rapid shot archer variant. This particular build uses a bow as well, and would require some tweaking if a crossbow were used instead, namely because Rapid Reload becomes a requirement. Look to pick up talents like Stealthy Sniper where you find the room.

[Jack of Dust]

Personally I would go with a slayer. Studied target gives you a bunch of bonuses that are pretty useful for sniping (and help you in melee in a pinch) and the bonuses are handy in the event that someone actually survives your shot. If that's not enough, don't forget studied target increases the DC on the Assassinate talent so that mooks have a decent chance of failing while anyone important can still fail on a low roll or if they have a poor fortitude save. One of my favourite things about the Slayer is that they have access to one particular talent: Blood Reader

Benefit: While able to see a studied target, a slayer with this talent knows exactly how many hit points his opponent has remaining. This only works against living targets.

This is a very handy talent for letting you know if you can kill the target in one round. Simply study your target and decide whether he has too many hitpoints for a one-shot kill.

[Jack of Dust]

Incidentally, since the vital strike line has been discussed, is there any way to bypass Deflect Arrows and Missile Shield apart from catching an opponent unaware?

[sunnychoco]

I played an arcane archer in my last IRL game, and ended up doing long range support, sniping, cover fire most of the time.

Character was a Half-elf Fighter (Archer) 5, Wizard (Abjurer) 2, Arcane Archer 10.
Although said character entered into play at level 13 as a replacement for my last (dead) character, I was pretty surprised by the amount of firepower and support sniping you can do. A longbow with Distance (free with Arcane Archer 5) lets you really lay down the pain from a range. The longbow's range increment jumps to 220/440(-2)/660(-4)/880(-6)/1100(-8)/1320(-10)/1540(-12)/1760(-14)/1980(-16 )/2200(-18) feet.

With perception, the DC is +1/10 feet to spot you, so even at the max range of your first increment (220 feet away), they have a +22 DC, which effectively cancels out the penalty you have on your stealth check to hide again after shooting. They'll never know what hit them at 440 feet, and that -2 to your accuracy is easily countered by basically being invisible to your target (gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents' Dexterity bonuses to AC (if any).)

A lot of the spells help you really snipe; invisibility or greater invisibility helps as does see invisibility or true sight and other divination spells let you get 'eyes' on the target far away. You can put a fireball on your arrow and fire it 2200ft away as artillery support if you true shot the turn before (or grab Far Shot and Bullseye Shot for only -5 penalty for a 670 meter shot).

If you wanted to be even 'sneakier' you could try using Slayer (Sniper) Levels instead of the Fighter ones, or Ranger (I did it before we adopted the new classes). You're only really down 1 BAB from a full martial class because of the wizard levels, so accuracy is no problem.

There were some suggestions for a magus build, which maybe could come online a bit sooner. The alchemist one sounds like fun. If I was going to do a ninja or a rogue 'sniper' I would probably go into Arcane Trickster.