I've been throwing this idea around in my head for a while now and I'm wondering what problems people see pop up from this proposed house rule:
The skill affinity feats (+2 on two specific skills) and skill focus grant their normal bonuses as well as turn those skills into class skills.
As it stands, I would limit it to just those types of skill boosting feats to keep it simple. I think this could go a long way to helping some classes pick up class skills and it makes sense to me.
I've thought about this before as well, and it's kinda hard to say, in my opinion. The thing that makes me hesitate is the large difference in power when used on something that isn't a class skill, versus something that is.
One point in Bluff and Disguise (class skills), and taking Deceitful? 4 and 4 turns into 6 and 6, gaining you an effective 4 extra skill ranks, providing you are putting them to use.
Not class skills? 1 and 1 turns into 6 and 6, giving you an effective +10 in skill ranks.
Skill focus, likewise, goes from 4 to 7 on a class skill if trained, or 1 to 7 for those that aren't. (Edit: I don't think I evaluated this the right way at first.)
I admit though, I do think it helps a lot. If you really want to use a skill with your character concept, and it isn't a class one, it's kind of a shame. And just because the class you want to use doesn't have the skill, it doesn't really seem like it makes sense to penalize the character if they want to make use of it.
On a related note, I personally love the traits that give class skills, along with a small +1 bonus. Helps a lot in situations where you want something that isn't exactly normal for the class, so they seem like they go along with this pretty well. Thinking about the additional traits feat that gives you a bonus two, maybe worth homebrewing a feat that does something similar? (That is, +1 on two skills of choice and making them class skills)
But then, that's another feat tax, if you want to invest in the skill affinity or focus ones as well.
I don't really see it as a feat tax because if you want to focus on it, you're going to want the feats anyway. If you're playing a character with few skill points (fighter, cleric, paladin, sorcerer, etc), this small change can help you do more with a minimal investment. You still would have to invest ranks to see anything besides the +2 or +3. Some classes wouldn't see as much benefit but they wouldn't need it anyway (rogues, monks, bards, rangers, etc.).
I think it would also free up traits to see more than skill based traits getting used. They could still see play, but I think it would be more interesting to see something other than Reactionary and Skill-boosting Trait X on nearly every character.
Sorry, I meant my suggestion to make an extra feat to turn them into class skills was basically a feat tax for someone who already wants to get the most out of those skills (via Skill focus and/or Skill affinities).
I agree with you on that point. Making them class skills does help a lot with something they'd already want.
I misunderstood you. I'm really hungry and sometimes I misread when my tummy rumbles.
I give it a thumbs up, as PF is already a system that encourages characters being good at skills. The bonus for training in a class skill is proof of that.
And if a trait is literally worth half a feat, then do the math. Using a trait can easily get you a class skill and an untyped +1 to it. Using Bob's proposed change grants class skill and +2 to two skills, only a small difference, and it not to two skills of choice. They are pre-bundled, and more flexibility cost more than less flexibility.
rainzax, why? I'm looking for feedback so I'm curious. Do you think it would be too unbalancing?
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speaking as a rogue enthusiast, as well as for balance between the two upgrade proposals (affinity/focus), i'm thinking one-for-one plus bonuses sounds fairer than two-for-one plus bonuses.
and besides, one of the affinity skills may very well be on the class list, so the choice between the two might in some circumstances be mitigated.
I was thinking about classes like the rogue and they don't really lose out on anything. My proposal doesn't give any additional skill points so the character would still have to use his few skill points to truly get much out of it. At most, he'd go from a +2 to a +5 with a single rank but he'd remain rather stagnant after that whereas the rogue would continue to benefit. Having everything be class skills doesn't matter much if you can't take advantage of it. Most classes aren't going to be able to do this much. Even the fighter, with all his feats, isn't going to take a bunch of skill boosting feats if he wants to remain relevant in combat too.
That being said, if I didn't change my proposal, what could be done to help the classes that have more skill points?
What feats are you referring to?
Feats like Alertness that grant +2 to Perception and Sense Motive. Taking Alertness would make both of those skills class skills and retain it's normal benefits.
That wouldn't be two unbalancing. Especially given how those feats rarely get taken.
Though in my games it would be pretty nice. As I have a Skill, Crafting, Racial feat progression outside of the other feat progression. It leads to People taking those feats more often.
What about Skill Focus would it add the selected skill as a class skill?
Skill focus would allow you to pick up a single skill that you may not be able to otherwise or you may only be looking to add one skill to your list. It's just another option. It seems to me, that if you've focused on being good at the skill, it should be a class skill.
The only concern I have is with the free racial feats (especially with the Advanced Race Guide), like the humans being able to pick up Skill Focus 4 times instead of just a single bonus feat. That being said, a lot of skills isn't usually unbalancing.
Actually the Skill Focus 4 times being spread out over the levels would be balanced out. and isn't it 3 times?
Maybe it is only 3 times. Are there any races that get some of those affinity feats as bonus feats?
Half-Elves. If you are talking about a bonus to most skills. then that is about 75% of all races.
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Acrobatic, Alertness, Animal Affinity, Athletic, Deceitful, Deft Hands, Magical Aptitude, Persuasive, Self-Sufficient, and Stealthy cover all the skills except for Appraise, Craft, Knowledge, Linguistics, Perform, and Profession.
so, the latter skills are only promotable with Skill Focus, whereas any other skill can be pair-promoted via the former 'affinity' feats.
i still don't like the two for one idea. guess i'm old fashioned. in that i think other classes ought to have to sacrifice more to acquire 'thief skills' and do so only at a reduced %.
that is, a rogue taking one of these will feel cheapened if taking one of these to buff a class skill because half of the benefit will be lost to her, comparatively. i say give her something back.
how about strip the automatic +4/+4 or +6 at 10 ranks from the feats, then give it back only to folks who already had that skill as a class skill before taking the feat?
Half-Elves. If you are talking about a bonus to most skills. then that is about 75% of all races.
Not a bonus on the skills, specifically the bonus feat. I guess giving half-elves a little incentive isn't bad.
Maybe make it to where only skill focus adds the skill as a class skill.
And if it isn't a class skill to begin with the benefits are reduced by 3.
Acrobatic, Alertness, Animal Affinity, Athletic, Deceitful, Deft Hands, Magical Aptitude, Persuasive, Self-Sufficient, and Stealthy cover all the skills except for Appraise, Craft, Knowledge, Linguistics, Perform, and Profession.
so, the latter skills are only promotable with Skill Focus, whereas any other skill can be pair-promoted via the former 'affinity' feats.
i still don't like the two for one idea. guess i'm old fashioned. in that i think other classes ought to have to sacrifice more to acquire 'thief skills' and do so only at a reduced %.
that is, a rogue taking one of these will feel cheapened if taking one of these to buff a class skill because half of the benefit will be lost to her, comparatively. i say give her something back.
how about strip the automatic +4/+4 or +6 at 10 ranks from the feats, then give it back only to folks who already had that skill as a class skill before taking the feat?
No class gets any extra skill points so they don't really get much, just a minor boost. The rogue would still have all those extra skill points to mess around with.
So a fighter that takes Alertness would get the +2 to Perception and Sense Motive and both would be class skills. He would still only have 2 skill points per level though. He wouldn't be able to stay on par with the rogue overall.
The rogue would still be able to benefit from the bonuses the feats provide, he would just be able to get there sooner. The fighter I mention before could put both of his points into Alertness and Sense Motive to get that +4 at level 10, but that means that he isn't putting ranks in other skills and is falling behind in areas that he may need too whereas the rogue doesn't have that problem.
Maybe make it to where only skill focus adds the skill as a class skill.
And if it isn't a class skill to begin with the benefits are reduced by 3.
That seems to make it be essentially the same thing it started as until you add 10 ranks.
It was just an option. and yes it does make it into that.
Personally, Most of the Skill feats I see being taken either are through the Focused Study racial feature or by Rogues or Characters with 6+INT skill points per level.
Maybe make it to where only skill focus adds the skill as a class skill.
And if it isn't a class skill to begin with the benefits are reduced by 3.
Wouldn't this actually even out to the same thing? +3 from class skill and +3 from skill focus at 10 ranks is pretty much the same as +3 from skill focus, then plus +6 at 10 ranks.
Honestly, I think I would personally go all or nothing. In other words, not bother with scaling it back depending on if they had it as a class skill to begin with. I admit, going all out makes the feats quite a bit more useful for some classes than others, but it evens out to simply bringing the class that didn't have the skill to the same benefit as the one that did, and at least doesn't boost it up past that.
This way though, if a player wants to make use of a skill that isn't granted by their class, they aren't going to always be 3 behind from what they could have if it was part of their class.
I don't usually see the skill boosting feats being taken unless it's part of a build I'm throwing around for the boards or a player has a unique problem that is causing a problem with skills. Generally, they are skipped in most games I've been a part of. I don't even see them taken by skill-based characters.
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Maybe make it to where only skill focus adds the skill as a class skill.
And if it isn't a class skill to begin with the benefits are reduced by 3.
or this:
Skill Focus:
Choose a skill. You are particularly adept at that skill.
Benefit: This chosen skill becomes a class skill for you. In addition, you get a +3 bonus on all checks involving the chosen skill. If you have 10 or more ranks in that skill, this bonus increases to +6.
plus either this:
Athletic:
You possess inherent physical prowess.
Benefit: You get a +2 bonus on Climb and Swim skill checks. In addition, you may use your Dexterity bonus in place of your Strength bonus when using these skills, if you like. If you have 10 or more ranks in one of these skills, the bonus increases to +4 for that skill.
Alertness:
You often notice things that others might miss.
Benefit: You get a +2 bonus on Perception and Sense Motive skill checks. In addition, you may use your Intelligence bonus in place of your Wisdom bonus when using these skills, if you like. If you have 10 or more ranks in one of these skills, the bonus increases to +4 for that skill.
Acrobatic:
You are skilled at leaping, jumping, and flying.
Benefit: You get a +2 bonus on Acrobatics and Fly skill checks. In addition, you may use your Intelligence bonus in place of your Dexterity bonus when using these skills, if you like. If you have 10 or more ranks in one of these skills, the bonus increases to +4 for that skill.
Animal Affinity:
You are skilled at working with animals and mounts.
Benefit: You get a +2 bonus on all Handle Animal and Ride skill checks. In addition, you may use your Intelligence bonus in place of your Charisma or Dexterity bonus when using these skills, if you like. If you have 10 or more ranks in one of these skills, the bonus increases to +4 for that skill.
Deceitful:
You are skilled at deceiving others, both with the spoken word and with physical disguises.
Benefit: You get a +2 bonus on all Bluff and Disguise skill checks. In addition, you may use your Intelligence bonus in place of your Charisma bonus when using these skills, if you like. If you have 10 or more ranks in one of these skills, the bonus increases to +4 for that skill.
Deft Hands:
You have exceptional manual dexterity.
Benefit: You get a +2 bonus on Disable Device and Sleight of Hand skill checks. In addition, you may use your Intelligence bonus in place of your Dexterity bonus when using these skills, if you like. If you have 10 or more ranks in one of these skills, the bonus increases to +4 for that skill.
Magical Aptitude:
You are skilled at spellcasting and using magic items.
Benefit: You get a +2 bonus on all Spellcraft checks and Use Magic Device checks. In addition, you may use the bonus from your primary casting stat (if you have one) in place of your Intelligence or Charisma bonus when using these skills, if you like. If you have 10 or more ranks in one of these skills, the bonus increases to +4 for that skill.
Persuasive:
You are skilled at swaying attitudes and intimidating others into your way of thinking.
Benefit: You get a +2 bonus on Diplomacy and Intimidate skill checks. In addition, you may use your Intelligence bonus in place of your Charisma bonus when using these skills, if you like. If you have 10 or more ranks in one of these skills, the bonus increases to +4 for that skill.
Self-Sufficent:
You know how to get along in the wild and how to effectively treat wounds.
Benefit: You get a +2 bonus on all Heal checks and Survival checks. In addition, you may use your Intelligence bonus in place of your Wisdom bonus when using these skills, if you like. If you have 10 or more ranks in one of these skills, the bonus increases to +4 for that skill.
Stealthy:
You are good at avoiding unwanted attention and slipping out of bonds.
Benefit: You get a +2 bonus on all Escape Artist and Stealth skill checks. In addition, you may use your Intelligence bonus in place of your Dexterity bonus when using these skills, if you like. If you have 10 or more ranks in one of these skills, the bonus increases to +4 for that skill.
or this!:
Athletic:
You possess inherent physical prowess.
Benefit: You get a +2 bonus on Climb and Swim skill checks. In addition, you may choose one of these skills to becomes a class skill for you. If you have 10 or more ranks in one of these skills, the bonus increases to +4 for that skill.
Alertness:
You often notice things that others might miss.
Benefit: You get a +2 bonus on Perception and Sense Motive skill checks. In addition, you may choose one of these skills to becomes a class skill for you. If you have 10 or more ranks in one of these skills, the bonus increases to +4 for that skill.
Acrobatic:
You are skilled at leaping, jumping, and flying.
Benefit: You get a +2 bonus on Acrobatics and Fly skill checks. In addition, you may choose one of these skills to becomes a class skill for you. If you have 10 or more ranks in one of these skills, the bonus increases to +4 for that skill.
Animal Affinity:
You are skilled at working with animals and mounts.
Benefit: You get a +2 bonus on all Handle Animal and Ride skill checks. In addition, you may choose one of these skills to becomes a class skill for you. If you have 10 or more ranks in one of these skills, the bonus increases to +4 for that skill.
Deceitful:
You are skilled at deceiving others, both with the spoken word and with physical disguises.
Benefit: You get a +2 bonus on all Bluff and Disguise skill checks. In addition, you may choose one of these skills to becomes a class skill for you. If you have 10 or more ranks in one of these skills, the bonus increases to +4 for that skill.
Deft Hands:
You have exceptional manual dexterity.
Benefit: You get a +2 bonus on Disable Device and Sleight of Hand skill checks. In addition, you may choose one of these skills to becomes a class skill for you. If you have 10 or more ranks in one of these skills, the bonus increases to +4 for that skill.
Magical Aptitude:
You are skilled at spellcasting and using magic items.
Benefit: You get a +2 bonus on all Spellcraft checks and Use Magic Device checks. In addition, you may choose one of these skills to becomes a class skill for you. If you have 10 or more ranks in one of these skills, the bonus increases to +4 for that skill.
Persuasive:
You are skilled at swaying attitudes and intimidating others into your way of thinking.
Benefit: You get a +2 bonus on Diplomacy and Intimidate skill checks. In addition, you may choose one of these skills to becomes a class skill for you. If you have 10 or more ranks in one of these skills, the bonus increases to +4 for that skill.
Self-Sufficent:
You know how to get along in the wild and how to effectively treat wounds.
Benefit: You get a +2 bonus on all Heal checks and Survival checks. In addition, you may choose one of these skills to becomes a class skill for you. If you have 10 or more ranks in one of these skills, the bonus increases to +4 for that skill.
Stealthy:
You are good at avoiding unwanted attention and slipping out of bonds.
Benefit: You get a +2 bonus on all Escape Artist and Stealth skill checks. In addition, you may choose one of these skills to becomes a class skill for you. If you have 10 or more ranks in one of these skills, the bonus increases to +4 for that skill.
looking at them both now, i think i prefer the latter...
I definitely don't like the option of using different ability scores. That will favor casters more than anything else and they have enough benefits that I don't want them taking over every aspect of the game.
I may have to do some playtesting to see if it really makes much of a difference overall if one or both skills become class skills. The more I think about it, the more I think that it won't. I plan on getting a campaign going again in January so I can start testing it then.
I do appreciate the input and I hope people continue to post suggestions. I want to see things that I may be missing (like the issue with rogues brought up earlier).
Most classes have one or both of the skills in those feats as class skills already.
Normally, for my groups at least, they are taken for the skills that are necessary for a certain fighting style or role.
Like my Cavalier and his Skill Focus(Ride) or my barbarian and his Skill Focus(Intimidate) and Antagonize feat(houseruled to where PCs use the un-errata'd version and NPCs use the Errata'd version).
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ok one more post then i'll stop with the horse. it's by no means an issue of breaking a game. this is skills we're talking here!
the rogue issue:
it'd be nice to inventivize these feats to all including the rogue but without encroachment upon her niche.
how does affinities granting a skill promotion incentivize the rogue?
she already has many many class skills, in fact only the affinities Acrobatic (Fly), Animal Affinity (Handle Animal and Ride), Magical Aptitude (Spellcraft), and Self-Sufficient (Heal and Survival) would actually expand her class skill base. the other six affinities offer her no advantage in this manner.
but they offer expansion to other classes, whether by single or double promotion.
how does affinities granting a double skill promotion encroach upon her niche?
because her main advantage against other skilled classes, such as the bard, ranger, and wizard, (three very strong classes who have open feat slots), is her access to class skills.
she ought to maintain this advantage in my view.
in short, i think single promotion is a nice compromise - i think it walks the balance between the conflicting drives to incentivize and to avoid encroachment.
and that said,
cheers Bob_Loblaw!,
i will be using this idea in my next game.
The Rogue still has the advantage of 8+INT skill points per level. Is there any other class with that many?
These feats are already great options for a rogue. They can benefit from them more than other classes. They will have more skill points to put in their skills so they can see the +4 and +6 bonuses come up sooner and more often than other classes. Even with this house rule, I don't see a character taking it more than once or twice most of the time.
With this Houserule you will see more varied characters as well.
That's what I would like to see. I would like to see more variety without having to make large changes.
Even if it was just choosing one skill to become a Class Skill it would make the Feats pretty nice for some characters.
As was pointed out, that's pretty much going to be the effect for most classes anyway.
True. Wasn't I the one that pointed that out?
Yup, but that really only makes me feel like I don't need to worry about restricting it to one skill since it will probably end up that way anyway.
True, so true.
That wouldn't be two unbalancing. Especially given how those feats rarely get taken.
Though in my games it would be pretty nice. As I have a Skill, Crafting, Racial feat progression outside of the other feat progression. It leads to People taking those feats more often.
What about Skill Focus would it add the selected skill as a class skill?
This is a little off topic, but could you elaborate on how you utilize these progressions? I'm trying to brainstorm different ways to maintain the appropriate power level without giving loads of magical items to players. Are these additional progressions having players advance at the same power level as the default progressions in feats and magic items, or are they more powerful?
The Extra-feats follow the 3.5 feat progression and they usually lead to my players all having something to do outside of combat.
It also adds a bit more Self-Sufficience.
As now my Wizard can be able to Climb and Jump over most obstacles without wasting magic.
The only restriction I have in place is they have to be a non-combat feat and I have to approve of them.