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This came as an unpleasant surprise to me. I cast Glitterdust to reveal an invisible foe. Before the spell's duration expired, an ally entered the area where Glitterdust had been cast, so he had to roll a save, which he failed, resulting in blindness. Is this how the spell is supposed to work? Is it essentially similar to a Pit spell? After all, the pit is there for the entire duration of the spell. The argument is that if Glitterdust had instantaneous duration, then someone could safely enter the affected area. But since it has finite duration, the area is "trapped", so to speak, until the duration expires. I had imagined that the dust that did not land on a person fell harmlessly to te floor, posing no further hazard.
Anyway, it's past the point now, but I will know better next time.
No that is not how it works. It is cast, it spreads, it settles on things. People entering the area are not subject to the spell because it has already settled. The dust lasts for 1round/level.
Note: After rereading it I can see how it could be misunderstood.
- Gauss
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No that is not how it works. It is cast, it spreads, it settles on things. People entering the area are not subject to the spell because it has already settled. The dust lasts for 1round/level.
Note: After rereading it I can see how it could be misunderstood.
- Gauss
That's what I thought. But I was not about to argue with the GM.
Take advantage of it, if the GM wants to treat it as a stationary invisibility purge then by all means take advantage of it. :D
If you would rather not, then compare the spell to invisibility purge and explain to the GM that it would create that effect PLUS blindness for a spell level less. Is that really what he wants?
- Gauss
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There is no need for a faq or dev statement. The answer is in the area entry--it is not simply a spread, it specifically targets creatures within that spread, so the duration applies to those creatures.
Compare that to other spells that affect areas and have durations, like say, Ice Storm. The area is just a list of dimensions, so the spell's duration applies to that area.
I can sort of see the confusion, but if you really read the spell properly, it's clear.
mplindustries is correct, targeted spells only target creatures at the time of casting.
- Gauss
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The intent of the spell is also clear, I'd say. Glitter falls down on creatures, covering them (visibility) and possibly blinding them, until they blink it out of their eyes.
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Tougher follow-up question:
Would Glitterdust work on say, a Shadow? The Shadow is incorporeal, but Glitterdust doesn't say anything about it needing to be corporeal. OTOH, Glitterdust is also a No-SR spell, hinting that it's physical sticky dust conjured by the spell. Thoughts?
Ascalaphus:
By RAW: 50% chance of affecting the shadow. The blindness effect should not affect an undead creature but it does if there is no Fort save for the effect. In this case Glitterdust will make the shadow blind if the 50% check is made and the Will save is failed.
Should Glitterdust affect the Shadow? No. This is a case where the rules fail us. Glitterdust is a physical corporeal effect and as such should not affect undead. This should be something the GM adjucates.
- Gauss
About Glitterdust vs shadow I would handle this with the normal 50% chance and call it a day. No need for a special ruling (at least for me)
Here is a really tricky situation my group encountered last session:
If I cast Glitterdust on a Phase Spider, would we be able to see it when it turns Ethereal (and hit it with magic weapons/force effects like Spiritual Weapon and Magic Missile)?
I think it would work. The GM disagreed. No worries, it's his game.
It ultimately didn't matter because I cast Cacophanous Call instead, which prevented it from going Ethereal at all because you can only take a single Move Action when nauseaous and it's a free action to go Ethereal for phase spiders.
But I would still like to know the correct answer.
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Here is a really tricky situation my group encountered last session:
If I cast Glitterdust on a Phase Spider, would we be able to see it when it turns Ethereal (and hit it with magic weapons/force effects like Spiritual Weapon and Magic Missile)?
I think it would work. The GM disagreed. No worries, it's his game.
I'd say the GM is right. If you can't see the ethereal plane, and something is on the ethereal plane only, you can't see it, even if it sparkles.
Glitterdust makes things visible because it covers them in glittery dust; if you can't see the dust because it's on another (ethereal) plane, the spell doesn't make things visible.
Here is a really tricky situation my group
It ultimately didn't matter because I cast Cacophanous Call instead, which prevented it from going Ethereal at all because you can only take a single Move Action when nauseaous and it's a free action to go Ethereal for phase spiders.But I would still like to know the correct answer.
Eh, the spider would've been able to go back. Moving back to the ethereal is a Move Action for phase spiders, which Nauseated permits.
Also, if you're allowed to take an action of size X, you can use that to perform an action of size Y instead, if Y < X. If you have a Move Action, you can spend it instead for a Swift, Immediate or Free Action.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Also, if you're allowed to take an action of size X, you can use that to perform an action of size Y instead, if Y < X. If you have a Move Action, you can spend it instead for a Swift, Immediate or Free Action.
This is actually incorrect. Although you can swap a standard for a move, that's the only substitution allowed. The full "chain" of substitutions only exists in 4E, not Pathfinder.
I'd say the GM is right. If you can't see the ethereal plane, and something is on the ethereal plane only, you can't see it, even if it sparkles.
Let me start with the definition of Ethereal:
"An ethereal creature is invisible, insubstantial, and capable of moving in any direction, even up or down, albeit at half normal speed. An ethereal creature can move through solid objects, including living creatures. An ethereal creature can see and hear on the Material Plane, but everything looks gray and ephemeral. Sight and hearing onto the Material Plane are limited to 60 feet.
Force effects and abjurations affect an ethereal creature normally. Their effects extend onto the Ethereal Plane from the Material Plane, but not vice versa. An ethereal creature can't attack material creatures, and spells you cast while ethereal affect only other ethereal things. Certain material creatures or objects have attacks or effects that work on the Ethereal Plane.
An ethereal creature treats other ethereal creatures and ethereal objects as if they were material."
Note the first line that states an Ethereal creature is invisible. Glitterdust says that it visibly outlines invisible things for the duration of the spell. So, the Phase Spider would become Ethereal, but would be visibly outlined while invisible. Likewise, a ghost touch weapon or force effects like Spiritual Weapons and magic missiles should still deal full damage.
It's tricky--I mean, I'm not 100% sure or anything, I just think there's a pretty good chance it works.
Glitterdust makes things visible because it covers them in glittery dust; if you can't see the dust because it's on another (ethereal) plane, the spell doesn't make things visible.
I understand that argument, but the definition of Ethereal is not "this creature is on another plane that overlaps the material plane" the definition is that the creature is invisible and insubstantial.
Eh, the spider would've been able to go back. Moving back to the ethereal is a Move Action for phase spiders, which Nauseated permits.
No, it is a free action, not a Move action. I got a 28 knowledge check to identify the phase spider, and I specifically asked what kind of action it was for it to become Ethereal.
Also, if you're allowed to take an action of size X, you can use that to perform an action of size Y instead, if Y < X. If you have a Move Action, you can spend it instead for a Swift, Immediate or Free Action.
That's actually not true--I thought it was as well, but was corrected a few weeks ago. The ability to trade below a move action is only in 4e.
That's a bit sharp, isn't it?It ultimately didn't matter because I cast Cacophanous Call instead, which prevented it from going Ethereal at all because you can only take a single Move Action when nauseaous and it's a free action to go Ethereal for phase spiders.
I don't understand this comment.
mplindustries: The Ethereal Plane IS another plane albeit one that is co-existant with the Material Plane (GMG p192). Ethereal creatures are ONLY affected by Abjuration and Force effects (GMG p192). They are not affected by anything else (GMG p192).
I think Funky Badger meant that free actions are still allowed even if you are staggered or otherwise limited to less than normal actions but still have an action.
- Gauss
mplindustries: The Ethereal Plane IS another plane albeit one that is co-existant with the Material Plane (GMG p192). Ethereal creatures are ONLY affected by Abjuration and Force effects (GMG p192). They are not affected by anything else (GMG p192).
In the hypothetical scenario, I would be casting Glitterdust on a material Phase Spider, in the hope that when it jumped Ethereal, we would still be able to see it and use force effects on it.
It's a little odd to me to think that Glitterdust would stop affecting the Ethereal spider when it jumps.
I think Funky Badger meant that free actions are still allowed even if you are staggered or otherwise limited to less than normal actions but still have an action.
You are usually very good with rules references--do you have one for this? I was just going by the Nauseated condition: "Creatures with the nauseated condition experience stomach distress. Nauseated creatures are unable to attack, cast spells, concentrate on spells, or do anything else requiring attention. The only action such a character can take is a single move action per turn."
I always read Nauseated as all you can do is take a single move, i.e. move your speed.
I always read Nauseated as all you can do is take a single move, i.e. move your speed.
Right, which means no free actions, right?
mplindustries:
The Phase Spider is no longer invisible you are right. But Ethereal is NOT invisible. See Invisibility allows you to penetrate invisibility and see into the ethereal plane. They are two separate functions of the spell. Glitterdust has no such wording.
Regarding free actions: I did not state Funky Badger was correct. I stated what I think he meant.
With that said, in my games certain free actions will be possible as well.
Example: It makes no sense that a nauseated creature cannot drop it's weapon as a free action.
Back on topic:
Unless you are Ethereal Cacophanous Call cannot be cast upon the Phase Spiders while they are Ethereal. It is neither an Abjuration nor a Force effect. So, they must have been on the Material Plane when this occurred. A Free action is not the issue since it is a move action to transition back to the Ethereal Plane and they must have been on the Material Plane for you to cast that spell (assuming you were also on the Material Plane).
Ethereal Jaunt (Su) A phase spider can shift from the Ethereal Plane to the Material Plane as a free action, and shift back again as a move action (or as part of a move action). The ability is otherwise identical to ethereal jaunt (CL 15th).
Nauseated: Creatures with the nauseated condition experience stomach distress. Nauseated creatures are unable to attack, cast spells, concentrate on spells, or do anything else requiring attention. The only action such a character can take is a single move actions per turn.
Note here: Not single moves per turn. Single Move Actions. In the PDF 'move actions' is underlined and linked. Below is the result of that link.
Move Action: A move action allows you to move up to your speed or perform an action that takes a similar amount of time. See Table 8–2 for other move actions. You can take a move action in place of a standard action. If you move no actual distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move action for one or more equivalent actions), you can take one 5-foot step either before, during, or after the action.
Since it is a move action that can be combined with another move action (such as actual movement) then by RAW Phase Spiders CAN transition back to the Ethereal Plane while moving and nauseated OR it can just transition back since Nauseated is not limited to just 'move' move actions.
Shifting back is supernatural and is not an attack, spell, concentration or anything that 'requires attention'. Note: this last part about requiring attention some GMs may see as the Phase Spider requires concentration but the RAW does not support this.
Summary: Please do not put words in my mouth. I did not state that Funky Badger was correct. I stated what I thought he was trying to say because you asked what he meant.
Phase Spiders can shift back to ethereal as part of a move action. Thus, by RAW, it still can do so while nauseated since nauseated allows a move action.
- Gauss
The Phase Spider is no longer invisible you are right. But Ethereal is NOT invisible.
I'll take that answer--even though the first line of Etherealness is that the creature is invisible, I can accept that it's a different kind of invisible. These are the reasons I don't dispute this stuff during play.
Ethereal Jaunt (Su) A phase spider can shift from the Ethereal Plane to the Material Plane as a free action, and shift back again as a move action (or as part of a move action). The ability is otherwise identical to ethereal jaunt (CL 15th).
Ha, so the GM just read it incorrectly. He told me it was a free action to shift. Ok, I see now--I never looked up the Phase Spider myself.
I actually used the spell in reaction to the Phase Spider ambushing someone--as it had already attacked when it became nauseous, it could not shift back that turn anyway. So, the situation was handled correctly, but not for the correct reason.
Here is a really tricky situation my group encountered last session:
If I cast Glitterdust on a Phase Spider, would we be able to see it when it turns Ethereal (and hit it with magic weapons/force effects like Spiritual Weapon and Magic Missile)?
I think it would work. The GM disagreed. No worries, it's his game.
It ultimately didn't matter because I cast Cacophanous Call instead, which prevented it from going Ethereal at all because you can only take a single Move Action when nauseaous and it's a free action to go Ethereal for phase spiders.
But I would still like to know the correct answer.
Just as a FYI, we may be in the same campaign -- a phase spider ambushed the party and the bard hit it with Glitterdust. Our GM made the same ruling -- the Ethereal plane was a different place, not just a different form of invisibility, so we couldn't see it.
Unfortunately, we were too low-level to do anything about it, so when it failed its save and got blinded we just hightailed it out of there while the bard maintained concentration. (That the GM allowed).
NobodysHome, why did the bard need to maintain concentration?
- Gauss
NobodysHome, why did the bard need to maintain concentration?
- Gauss
EDIT: See below. HeroLabs was innocent of wrongdoing! I'm leaving this post just because Gauss responded, and I consider it very rude to remove posts to which other people have responded.
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Apparently another HeroLabs/PRD disconnect.
In the PRD, you have "Each round at the end of their turn blinded creatures may attempt new saving throws to end the blindness effect."
In the HeroLabs printed description of the spell, the bard can prevent the creature from getting a new save by maintaining concentration.
This is NOT in the PRD.
So... excellent question!
Ahhhh, one more reason I rely upon the books and my own memory and NOT on some external program like Herolabs. :)
- Gauss
Ahhhh, one more reason I rely upon the books and my own memory and NOT on some external program like Herolabs. :)
- Gauss
Yeah, when I GM and one of my players says, "HeroLabs says xxx" I immediately bring up the PRD. But I'm not the GM for this campaign, and I'm not going to argue with an effect that keeps us alive! Call me a coward, but a well-played phase spider vs. a bunch of 4th-level characters with no magic gear is less-than-fun!
EDIT: I must exonerate HeroLabs. I just checked the character sheet and spoke with the player, and it was a miscommunication between her and the GM, and a misunderstanding of the spell. She *thought* she needed to maintain concentration for the spell to remain in effect. The GM *thought* that this meant the creature didn't get a new save for as long as she was concentrating. So it was a lack of understanding of the rules of the spell, as usual, and not HeroLabs' fault. Yet another reason to PRD spells you're unfamiliar with as they are cast...
EDIT 2: I really don't want to derail the thread, so I'll post-and-be-quiet. Our GM really is top-notch, but it's his first PF campaign *ever* so there are going to be rules mistakes. For the first couple of sessions I tried to correct him mid-game, and he *very* politely indicated that rules discussions were not to be had during game time. So we get mistakes, but not a single person or creature has died because of them yet, and I send him corrections via e-mail post-game. It's working very well, so I don't want to give the impression that the players are intentionally pulling the wool over the eyes of a novice GM, or vice versa. Just a bunch of old-school players getting used to a new system.
Fun part? Not even the PRD is 100% accurate. Compare the Light spell in the PRD to the CRB 5th printing sometime. Compare them word for word. There is a (minor) phrase missing from the PRD version.
- Gauss
Fun part? Not even the PRD is 100% accurate. Compare the Light spell in the PRD to the CRB 5th printing sometime. Compare them word for word. There is a (minor) phrase missing from the PRD version.
- Gauss
Thanks. My obsessive-compulsive self REALLY needed to hear that! You just wasted 20 minutes of my day! :-P
Here is a really tricky situation my group encountered last session:
If I cast Glitterdust on a Phase Spider, would we be able to see it when it turns Ethereal (and hit it with magic weapons/force effects like Spiritual Weapon and Magic Missile)?
I think it would work. The GM disagreed. No worries, it's his game.
It ultimately didn't matter because I cast Cacophanous Call instead, which prevented it from going Ethereal at all because you can only take a single Move Action when nauseaous and it's a free action to go Ethereal for phase spiders.
But I would still like to know the correct answer.
Just as a FYI, we may be in the same campaign -- a phase spider ambushed the party and the bard hit it with Glitterdust. Our GM made the same ruling -- the Ethereal plane was a different place, not just a different form of invisibility, so we couldn't see it.
Unfortunately, we were too low-level to do anything about it, so when it failed its save and got blinded we just hightailed it out of there while the bard maintained concentration. (That the GM allowed).
That's really interesting, but no, we're not--the Glitterdust was a hypothetical. I actually cast Cacophanous Call--plus we killed it.
Funky Badgers: Now I am not sure what you mean (the whole sharp chain). LOL
- Gauss
That's what I thought. But I was not about to argue with the GM.No that is not how it works. It is cast, it spreads, it settles on things. People entering the area are not subject to the spell because it has already settled. The dust lasts for 1round/level.
Note: After rereading it I can see how it could be misunderstood.
- Gauss
Where can we find more players like you!
I feel like we send half our playtime arguing/discussing rules sometimes.
I can just imagine all that we could accomplish......
That's what I thought. But I was not about to argue with the GM.No that is not how it works. It is cast, it spreads, it settles on things. People entering the area are not subject to the spell because it has already settled. The dust lasts for 1round/level.
Note: After rereading it I can see how it could be misunderstood.
- Gauss
Where can we find more players like you!
I feel like we send half our playtime arguing/discussing rules sometimes.
I can just imagine all that we could accomplish......
As I posted above, our GM simply has a "no arguing during game time" rule.
I find that I like it a heck of a lot more than being right (or wrong).
And thanks for that Oladon. Thus, free actions are allowed while nauseated.
Edit: Oladon's quote can also be found on CRB p182 for those that use the book.
- Gauss
Tinalles: The key element that makes it work differently from the way you have been using it is the line that states:
Area creatures and objects within 10-ft.-radius spread
The target is not the area itself. It is the creatures and objects within that area. Because of this who is affected is checked at the time the spell is cast and then the duration applies to those creatures and objects.
If it stated: 'Area 10-ft.-radius spread' then it would work as your group has believed for a long time.
- Gauss
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I think Funky Badger meant that free actions are still allowed even if you are staggered or otherwise limited to less than normal actions but still have an action.You are usually very good with rules references--do you have one for this? I was just going by the Nauseated condition: "Creatures with the nauseated condition experience stomach distress. Nauseated creatures are unable to attack, cast spells, concentrate on spells, or do anything else requiring attention. The only action such a character can take is a single move action per turn."
That wording is intended to mean "The only action such a character can take is a single move action (or single move-equivalent action, but not a double move action, standard action, or full round action) per turn."
It's not meant to mean you can't take actions that are quicker than a move action, such as a swift action or free action - that's nonsense.
There's no rule for this, but it's commonsense that the reason you can't take "any other actions" is because you'll faulter if you push yourself too hard since you're nauseated.
Just to clarify something from a few posts up:
Restricted Activity: In some situations, you may be unable to take a full round's worth of actions. In such cases, you are restricted to taking only a single standard action or a single move action (plus free and swift actions as normal). You can't take a full-round action (though you can start or complete a full-round action by using a standard action; see below).Emphasis mine.
Thank you. Combined with the fact that it is in fact a move action for the Phase Spider to shift, well, now, I just feel bad about winning that fight more easily than we should have. Oops.
And I agree that arguing with the GM is not a good idea at the table. I GM 95% of the time, and I'll admit, nobody has ever challenged me on a rule because most of the people I run games for don't really care about the rules and trust me to handle them. However, in this game--this rare opportunity to play--I've disagreed with the GM a few times, but never at the table. If I think he did something wrong, I let it go, then look it up later. Sometimes, I am wrong, as in this case, and I learn something new. If he's wrong, but it's not something that is especially troublesome or likely to come up again (for example, he ran a rat swarm as being 5x5), I also let it go. Once, it was something that seriously impacted our ability to function in the game, and I just sent him an e-mail about it privately afterward.
Don't disrupt the table's flow for this crap--it's not worth it.
I think that this really does need an official clarification as it is very easy to interpret incorrectly.. Somebody brought up ICE Storm as an example of a spell covering an area (cylinder (20-ft. radius, 40 ft. high) It, however, also specifically states that the damage is limited to the first round while Glitterdust does not. Glitterdust is also described as a cloud, just like stinking Cloud or Fog cloud(though those both describe the cloud as spreading.
I agree that it is an effect upon casting, but it is written in such a way that it is too easily confused. It is described as cloud, it is not described as a burst effect and while I have seen posts stating that total concealment in the AoE p[protects you from the effects, I have seen nothing in the spell description that would allow that. It is not described as having only the casting round as taking effect and makes no mention of what happens to the AoE after it is cast.
An official clarification would be helpful.