Then I suggest playing Harvest Moon. You don't even slaughter your animals.These days isn't those godless video game players that are damned to the fiery abysses of hell?
There aren't enough of us table-top gamers to really make it worth the effort to try and save our souls.
What's a "video game"?
I know only murder simulators.
That freaks me out about the game. Your animals live FOREVER....
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I think I would find the Pathfinder pantheon supplanted by Christian saints, canons, etc., to be very boring.
I've never had to "tone down" my campaigns, even though by and large I've played with people of similar spiritual beliefs. Actually, I think playing with the 3.5 Heroes Of Horror sourcebook helped pushed me into some of the darker, grittier fantasy that I now enjoy. I think that this is really personal preference, and something that every DM needs to gauge with their parties at the outset of an adventure.
I must say that I'm pleasantly surprised by how diplomatic and thoughtful a lot of the discussion has been here, interesting topic.
That freaks me out about the game. Your animals live FOREVER....Then I suggest playing Harvest Moon. You don't even slaughter your animals.These days isn't those godless video game players that are damned to the fiery abysses of hell?
There aren't enough of us table-top gamers to really make it worth the effort to try and save our souls.
What's a "video game"?
I know only murder simulators.
And heaven forbid you reset the game without saving....
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I only really have a few issues with the game (in general, not specifically PF) based in RL religion, and personal belief. I have an issue with the mandatory patron deity aspect infused with some classes unnecessarily. I feel that that sort of think should be left completely up to the individual player to avoid as desired.
The other thing I have issues with, and these are minor ones really, is the built in immorality and lack of consequences for actions the game assumes, from making thieves into acceptable hero figures, to suggesting that the generic crusader against the nonbelievers is itself a good quality, to sweeping the fact that most “adventureres” are actually murderers, violent grave robbers, and bullies (again shown as a good thing within the context of the game).
I want to elaborate more but ran out of time before work, so it will need to wait.
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...to sweeping the fact that most “adventureres” are actually murderers, violent grave robbers, and bullies (again shown as a good thing within the context of the game).
Are we really going here? This has been covered in another recent thread. Just because you might play your characters as grave-robbing murderous bullies(or hobos, even), doesn't mean everyone else does.
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And heaven forbid you reset the game without saving....That freaks me out about the game. Your animals live FOREVER....Then I suggest playing Harvest Moon. You don't even slaughter your animals.These days isn't those godless video game players that are damned to the fiery abysses of hell?
There aren't enough of us table-top gamers to really make it worth the effort to try and save our souls.
What's a "video game"?
I know only murder simulators.
Me: Okay, let's see about this game everyone is talking about..
Me: Okay, let's make some bacon!
Pig: I love you.
Me: I know, pig, but I love bacon more. Where's the bacon button?
Pig: I love you.
Me: Dammit pig, I'm TRYING to turn you into bacon!
Pig: I love you. Can't you see the heart over my head?
Me: Waitaminute, am I trying to kill this pig, or am I feeding or cleaning it or something?
Pig: I love the way you feed and clean me.
Me: AAARRRGHH!!!
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All games need a bacon button. Just sayin'.
Is vege- bacon a viable option ?
Would a bacon-button make a game non-Kosher?
Not trying to start a fight or anything, but I have read several times in this thread how the bible condemns "magic/witchcraft/etc," which is at least a partial basis for many sects of Christianity to have a problem with RPG's, Harry Potter, etc.But, I have a question; if the bible is against "magic," then why were the "good guys" parting seas, walking on water, transmuting water to wine, creating bread and fish out of thin air, healing wounds(equivalent to Cure spells)etc? Or is that somehow not magic as well?
Again, not looking for a fight. Just looking for an honest answer.
I hesitate to conflate real life scripture and stories with game mechanics, but in short, divine magic is fine, at least divine magic whose source is YHWH or Christ. Arcane magic would be questionable or evil depending on how and why you work it.
The important thing is where the source of your magic comes from. It's not that you can do amazing things, it's how and why. "Witchcraft" in scripture usually refers to making pacts with demons, i.e., infernal magic. In short, if the magic/miracle doesn't ultimately come from God, it is not good.
Those worried about magic and witchcraft this day and age assume it always has a Satanic source (which is of course not true).
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OT stuff to Freehold
That freaks me out about the game. Your animals live FOREVER....Then I suggest playing Harvest Moon. You don't even slaughter your animals.These days isn't those godless video game players that are damned to the fiery abysses of hell?
There aren't enough of us table-top gamers to really make it worth the effort to try and save our souls.
What's a "video game"?
I know only murder simulators.
No, they'll die of old age, and their life span improves based on how well you treat it. At least that's how it is in the DS games I've played.
The other thing I have issues with, and these are minor ones really, is the built in immorality and lack of consequences for actions the game assumes, from making thieves into acceptable hero figures, to suggesting that the generic crusader against the nonbelievers is itself a good quality, to sweeping the fact that most “adventureres” are actually murderers, violent grave robbers, and bullies (again shown as a good thing within the context of the game).
These issues exist for some people without the issue of religion. For that matter, people have issues with Christianity itself over many of the same issues - particularly that crusader against non-believers one.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Not trying to start a fight or anything, but I have read several times in this thread how the bible condemns "magic/witchcraft/etc," which is at least a partial basis for many sects of Christianity to have a problem with RPG's, Harry Potter, etc.
But, I have a question; if the bible is against "magic," then why were the "good guys" parting seas, walking on water, transmuting water to wine, creating bread and fish out of thin air, healing wounds(equivalent to Cure spells)etc? Or is that somehow not magic as well?
Again, not looking for a fight. Just looking for an honest answer.
Here's my understanding:
Prior to the modern(ish) advent of the "fantasy" genre, the terms "magic", "witchcraft", "sorcery" etc referred to making deals with Satan or his demons in order to get them to do something for you. For someone with a Judeo-Christian background, that's simply what the terms meant - that's what pops to mind when the words are said. Not anything like what you and I think of.
I'm under the impression that what few people remain who think the "magic" in RPGs is dangerous are still under that assumption - that it involves making deals with the devil, or something along those lines. As fantasy becomes more and more "mainstream", however, more and more people become aware that those terms are getting used to mean something entirely different in RPGs and fiction.
So basically, it's an unfortunate terminology mix-up, and nothing more. One person's thinking "the non-martial mechanics of a fantasy world" and the other person is thinking "asking Satan for favors", and they're both using the same word(s).
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I heard of a group who changed the pagan pantheon to Catholic style saints so as to ease the discomfort of certain players. So gods like Pelor or Ilmater became saints serving under God. So a Cleric of Pelor was serving God but following the example of Saint Pelor.
This particular approach has a fine historical tradition! ;)
Not trying to start a fight or anything, but I have read several times in this thread how the bible condemns "magic/witchcraft/etc," which is at least a partial basis for many sects of Christianity to have a problem with RPG's, Harry Potter, etc.But, I have a question; if the bible is against "magic," then why were the "good guys" parting seas, walking on water, transmuting water to wine, creating bread and fish out of thin air, healing wounds(equivalent to Cure spells)etc? Or is that somehow not magic as well?
Again, not looking for a fight. Just looking for an honest answer.
I hesitate to conflate real life scripture and stories with game mechanics, but in short, divine magic is fine, at least divine magic whose source is YHWH or Christ. Arcane magic would be questionable or evil depending on how and why you work it.
The important thing is where the source of your magic comes from. It's not that you can do amazing things, it's how and why. "Witchcraft" in scripture usually refers to making pacts with demons, i.e., infernal magic. In short, if the magic/miracle doesn't ultimately come from God, it is not good.
Those worried about magic and witchcraft this day and age assume it always has a Satanic source (which is of course not true).
I think the generic Christian view of magic would say that there is no "arcane" magic. There are divine miracles and there is demonic magic, which sometimes pretends to be the product of knowledge and study, but is always actually linked to demons. Pagan deities providing magic were merely demons in disguise.
This fits both medieval sources and a lot of early fantasy. I'm not sure when the idea of the pure scholar wizard appeared.
Ever heard of the "Gift of the Magi"? The three kings/three wise men who visited Jesus after his birth were also described as magi -- i.e., astrologers who recognized the star over Bethlehem as a great portent and followed it. Magi in our world were usually Hermetics or Zoroastrians, and are as close as you can get to "Scholar Wizards" in our own history and folklore.
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Yeah, but basically, if you're a Christian: the Bible = real (except when it's allegory); whereas Dungeons & Dragons = Not real.
Actually, for everyone RPG =! Reality, or at least that's the way it should be. None of the gods are real, there is no such thing as magic, the geography, history and physics are fakes. There are no elves, dwarves, halflings, orcs or goblins.
Why should fiction pose a particular problem for one religion? If someone actually starts believing this stuff that's a sign of deep underlying problems that require compassionate treatment.
Roleplaying is escapism and as the Christian author C S Lewis once pointed out, the people against escapism are jailers (but he spelled it gaolers), not necessarily Christians. The whole issue is rather a tempest in a teapot.
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Yeah, I wasn't saying non-Christians took RPGs as real - that'd be bad for myself, for one thing - but the question was what the difference between use of magic in the bible and use of magic in the game was too Christians, so I figured I didn't need to state how the rest of us see it.
Yeah, I wasn't saying non-Christians took RPGs as real - that'd be bad for myself, for one thing - but the question was what the difference between use of magic in the bible and use of magic in the game was too Christians, so I figured I didn't need to state how the rest of us see it.
There isn't any difference between Christians and non-Christians in that regard.
Roleplaying is a group of people telling each other a story within a certain agreed upon set of rules. Conflicts arise and are handled, well or badly, by the rules. So far, it's religion and value, neutral. Where a potential for conflict exists in roleplaying is where it always exists, in how we as humans treat each other.
Christians are supposed to love everyone. If a Christian acts out of anger or hatred, then he or she is not behaving properly. That doesn't mean we are supposed to be doormats, quite the contrary, in fact.
It also means, within the context of the group fiction, a Christian may portray a villain, so long as the separation between player and character are maintained.
As Ellora, future Empress of the World, I may kick puppies and kittens in the game. As a player, I would never do such a thing. If my character found it necessary to have your character killed, I would do it. I would serve you tea and make a point of apologizing after the game if you took especially hard.
I'm likely not going to play Ellora as she, like most evil characters, is probably pretty dull.
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Are we really going here? This has been covered in another recent thread. Just because you might play your characters as grave-robbing murderous bullies(or hobos, even), doesn't mean everyone else does....to sweeping the fact that most “adventureres” are actually murderers, violent grave robbers, and bullies (again shown as a good thing within the context of the game).
First off, why would I not go here when I am specifically talking about something I have a small issue with? And secondly, you have it wrong. The game does advocate this, though you might play it another way. Thats perfectly fine, but that does not change the fact that this IS the assumption of the game.
Same.
The game does advocate this...
Where does the game advocate this?
The game does advocate this...Where does the game advocate this?
D&D as manifest destiny or frontier imperialism simulation (Where you exterminate hostile peoples an "civilize" their lands) should be a new thread. It is not on topic for this one.
Then I suggest playing Harvest Moon. You don't even slaughter your animals.These days isn't those godless video game players that are damned to the fiery abysses of hell?
There aren't enough of us table-top gamers to really make it worth the effort to try and save our souls.
What's a "video game"?
I know only murder simulators.
If I never have to play that game again it will be too soon.
No joke.
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???
It has the rogue class and the skill to steal stuff. You grow more powerful by killing things to get xp. Things like that.
My players generally only kill things that are threatening either their lives or other people's lives. The only exception involved an incident where metagaming took over when they realized they could hunt down animals for EXP. I've also seen rogues who only use their skills for getting a party through a dungeon, bluffing the group out of trouble, and using stealth to steal important things from the bad guys instead of innocents. There is a reason why they're called 'rogues' and not 'thieves'
Basically, the things you're mentioning don't necessarily have any impact on the playstyle of a gaming group.
There were quite a few famous "magicians" who were Christians - the Hermeticists (?) were, more or less, and Albertus Magnus was a monk, I think. A lot of their practice was based on the Quabalah/Jewish mystical tradition, so it might be possible to create a system of arcane magic with a Biblical basis if you were so minded.
Having said that, your Christianity would probably have to be pretty unorthodox to consider that, so not particularly helpful in most cases.
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I'm not saying that those are the only aspects of the game, I am saying that those aspects do exist (regardless of playstyle) and that my personal belief, religious (and non-religious at that) does not agree with them. Stealing from a bad guy doesn't make stealing ok, for an example. Getting XP from killing and/or violence is the base assumption, though there are other ways to do it, sure. As far as I can recall, Dragonlance 3E was realy the first time that the game suggested awarding XP for an encounter completed outside the the box, like through RPing out of a fight rather than fighting, (as a general rule not a rare exception).
I could be wrong, but I honestly can not think of other cases off the top of my head, (with the exception of things like defeating a trap, which is not really the same thing at all). Granted, 3E changed the class from Thief to Rogue (not really that far or a change in meaning really), and I understand that Rogues are not [rolls eyes]all[/rolls eyes] thieves. :)
Not arguing that in any way. What I am saying is that the game world does hold thieves/rogues up as heroic archtypes on their own, something for instance I would not want to teach my daughter.
Obviously, I understand it is just a game, and as I have said, this is a minor issue for me.
You seem a lot like my Aunt. She wouldn't/won't let her children watch things like Pirates of the Caribbean or Harry Potter because they star pirates (and pirates are BAD) and deal with magic.
Call of Duty on the other hand is A-OK. Killing foreigners is what the children need to learn.
Observation, not condemnation.
???
It has the rogue class and the skill to steal stuff. You grow more powerful by killing things to get xp. Things like that.
In most games I have played in you get more powerful by overcoming challenges... simply killing things (murdering people in their sleep as one example) rarely gets you much experience in fact depending on the circumstances killing just gets you tossed in prison. Now killing enemies in armed conflict is probably what you meant but you switched your wording to make it seem more craven. Defeating bad guys gets you the experience... not killing. In fact you can often earn more XP by capturing them and taking them to justice. Good role playing awards and story awards flow from such things.
As for the rogue... it's a striker/skill monkey class as it stands. Are you suggesting they ONLY can steal stuff? I can't remember the last time a rogue character has actually stolen anything.
I fail to see how the game advocates any of this. This is a matter of play style. The game stays fairly silent on dictating play style for good reason. It is your group advocating this not the game.
The game actively discourages stealing IMO, besides pocket change.
I think the games that I play in would present more of a challenge to an Orthodox Jew than to a Christian -- they are usually scheduled at times that would pretty much require violating the Jewish Sabbath.
There's a definite case to be made that the game's reward systems are disproportionately focused on anti-social behavior. There're just more words dedicated to gaining XP and GP from violence than through other means. I don't personally think that's such a big deal, it's an old tradition which comes straight from the fiction which inspired the original game. Conan and Aragorn: both kind of sociopaths.
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I am a big fan of d&d and pathfinder but some in my church find that RPGs are dangerous. How do other Christians respond to this or are these two issues non compatible? I would love to hear the community's thoughts on the matter!
Also happy thanksgiving to the USA !
Thanks
Nick
I'm a christian, and I actually love the World Building aspect of playing D&D. However, I'm going to play "the Devil's Advocate" for a bit and explain the game from the level of Conscious Wierdness.
Hopefully, we are all taught the difference from Fantasy and Reality, right? Alright, to answer your question directly the game itself is Amoral. To look at it objectively, it's good clean fun and fun to play as it is essentially a tool box and construction set to have your own fun.
Your friends objection to the game is based on irrational thinking. What caused their attitude, whatever it is, is not based on rational thinking of the topic -- during the 80s, the Science of Quantum Mechanics was not as understood, and the theories of the Quantum Brain was perhaps just a thought seed. But you have to remember a couple of things:
A. their concerns are not entirely unfounded, but they are based off an Irrational Argument -- Jack Chick is irrational, get over it.
B. "You control the Holodeck" of your own game.
If the thesis of What the *Bleep* Do We Know? is entirely correct, what we imagine in our heads is the same as what we experience in reality. We consciously know the difference between Reality and Fantasy; but our subconscious doesn't. So therefore, playing D&D does leave an impact on you and the other players. So, as irrational as it seems, your friends' concerns are not totally unfounded.
However, you are in control of what happens in your game. You choose the theme of your game and how it works. You can play any scenario you choose, whether it is Biblical or not. :) The game represents your Holodeck, you can choose what you want to experience through the game.
You can make a game based entirely on Christian themes, if you like. Or you can explore the depths of depravity. I bet there are people here who build games based on an Atheist perspective, a hindu perspective, a buddhist perspective. Despite the game's existence, though, no one can blame the creator for creating it. Ultimately, it's you who play the game, and its you who is responsible for the content of your own game. Choose or make Christian or biblical content.
To hit an earlier point very briefly: I've often found that most thinking RPGs (such as Pathfinder), seem to reward characters as much or MORE, both materially and intangibly, for non-violent solutions that are often more difficult to achieve.
And yes, if violence is involved, it's a far cry from our everyday world. Malevolant monsters that are unequivocally evil (and sometimes not even sentient) make for rather guilt-free sword fodder. Slaying humanoids, however, becomes much more of a moral issue. In fact, I often find fantasy to be sadly more ethical about this than real life (where there is no one else, and we just butcher each other).
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When I was 12 or so my Grandmother took me to a bookstore while she was out shopping. I knew what I wanted. I had been saving for it. I had it in my hands: The AD&D 2E Monster Manual V1. As my grandmother and I approached the cashier a woman stopped us,
Woman: "Excuse me, are you aware that Dungeons and Dragons is a gateway to satanic worship?"
GMA: "What is Dungeons and Dragons?"
Woman: "Well it pretends to be a game but it is really something more. Children get lost in it and make deals with Satan. Also, the little boy you are with is holding one of their books?"
GMA: "What? You will not buy that Satanic book!"
Me: "What is a Satan?"
Anyway, I get home and I was bummed out that my hard earned chore money was saved up for nothing. When my father found out he was furious (he is not a religious person in the conventional sense) and he took me back to the bookstore to get the MM but, alas, it was gone. We got the store manager to order another one and it took weeks. When it finally came I had a bit more pocket money but not enough to buy a second book but my Pops, being awesome, threw in some cash so I could get the Monster Manual and the DM guide which completed the trilogy (I already had the player's manual). Those three books gave me years of fun.
What I took away from it was that Christian women in bookstores are crazy and Dad is awesome.
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First off, why would I not go here when I am specifically talking about something I have a small issue with? And secondly, you have it wrong. The game does advocate this, though you might play it another way. Thats perfectly fine, but that does not change the fact that this IS the assumption of the game.Are we really going here? This has been covered in another recent thread. Just because you might play your characters as grave-robbing murderous bullies(or hobos, even), doesn't mean everyone else does....to sweeping the fact that most “adventureres” are actually murderers, violent grave robbers, and bullies (again shown as a good thing within the context of the game).
Well, they do say assumption is the mother of all...
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"Christians" play pathfinder without compromising anything quite easily.
Certain sects of Christianity may have beliefs that don't allow them to.
Unlike not eating meat on Friday, and not being able wear clothes made of more than one fabric, there is nothing in the Bible saying you can't play roll playing games.
Nothing. Zero. Zilch.
So if your denomination forbids it, that is your denomination. That is not "Christians".
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I actually got taught Second Edition DnD in a high school club, by an actual honest to goodness Roman Catholic priest.
He generally took the old Chestertonian ethic towards it. You know that old 'Fairy tales don't teach children that dragons exist, it teaches them that they can be beaten.' Generally his concern with the "tanar'ri' and "baatezu" was to remind us that those were the things you denied the plans of and hit vigorously with large metal implements until they went away.
The only real problem I've ever had was buying the Complete Book of Necromancers at a bookstore as a kid. The staff razzed me, that was about it.
As for the earlier thing on the whole 'christian view' of magic. Well, it boils down to differing opinions over its nature, origins and the like. Lewis or Tolkien, sadly, I can't remember which, touched on this one time when describing stories. Essentially the issue is that 'magic' as we normally see it is something vulgar, something against the way things are supposed to work. Its trying to find cheat codes in existance and gain power over our fellow man. The author (again can't remember which) stated that Jesus for example wasn't really 'magicking' say the water into wine as water naturally turns into wine inside the barrel, he just sort of removed conditions (time, hops, yeast, etc). As opposed to a more 'magical' thing like a ring that somehow cleans your room (metal bands don't usually clean things). I know I probably don't make much sense here, I wish I had the original write up as the author (again, can't remember which) was a damn sight better at conveying his idea then I am at regurgitating it.
Even current Catholic catechism is very strongly against (as in 'don't do it!') things a DnD mage would consider minor, such as divinations and the like since they're designed to grant us power over things beyond our ken. Magic at its core seems designed to grant its wielder power superior to his fellow humans, to attempt to become superhuman, and in order to do so requires treating with the proverbial dark powers. This is also why Christians have a general rule against summoning spirits (you never really know who the hell you're talking to).
That being said, the Dnd equivalent is basically just turning on the Spy Satellite, and not so much say bartering away my immortal soul for a crystal ball, or trafficing with Maladomini for football scores for upcoming Superbowls. Hell, most DnD Magic isn't even donning a crown that will save us with the powers of ice and frost at the cost of our sanity.
Also, this is apparently my first post as a long time lurker, so apologies for babbling.
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Speaking of Catholicism. This is slightly off-topic but well worth the read.
I managed a video rental store at the time the first Harry Potter movie was released on vhs/dvd. I had lots of people complain about allowing such satanic and occult filth on the shelves (never mind that I didn't own the chain and couldn't control what was on the shelves). But it was just head shakingly ironic to watch these same people rent Disney films, horror films, and "M" rated video games for their children without batting an eye.
I managed a video rental store at the time the first Harry Potter movie was released on vhs/dvd. I had lots of people complain about allowing such satanic and occult filth on the shelves (never mind that I didn't own the chain and couldn't control what was on the shelves). But it was just head shakingly ironic to watch these same people rent Disney films, horror films, and "M" rated video games for their children without batting an eye.
What's even more ironic is that J K Rowling is a member in good standing of the Church of Scotland. The Harry Potter books really can't carry the weight of a lot of heavy thinking, but the Christian content is in there.
I live in small town Arkansas. The Church of Scotland wouldn't hold much water here... lol