Relixander wrote: So I change what my ruling would be... And that's why I think the only "per the rules" answer (without dev intervention) would have to be that you can't plug the hole. It's going to be completely up to each GM. The original poster was asking about PFS (where interpretation is supposed to be uniform), though the question didn't really belong there. We've got a lot of math whizzes around here so:
If we have a 20' pit and it takes a round to rise up, that's 20 feet in 6 seconds. Assuming Golarion gravity is the same as Earth gravity, acceleration due to falling is 32 ft/sec^2 (or a total distance of about 576 feet in six seconds). So I would rule that that 20' move in 6 seconds is nowhere near fast enough to trigger falling damage. Since you wouldn't be in range to full-attack the covering for the whole 6 seconds (unless you have reach), you could only ready a single attack and if you didn't manage to bust through the covering with that one attack, squish.
The point is that it's A) extremely powerful (especially the moonlight bridge variation) and B) completely up to GM interpretation.
Oh, and C) as soon as a GM with a level 4 bad guy does this to players everyone is going to cry foul.
What if you cover the pit with a wall of force?
donato wrote: What if you cover the pit with a wall of force? The debate is about "can you seal" the pit, not "what can you seal it with."
Besides the fact that the original poster was asking about a level 4 party, a wall of force is vertical only. (Although a bead of force creates a sphere and a moonlight bridge can act as a horizontal wall of force.)
...
I don't think you can call it an insta-kill if it takes two full rounds to perform. Agreed, the pit will take 4 rounds and 2 spells, neither is an insta-kill, under typical definition. I was looking at relative power and continued a misuse of the word.
Belafon wrote: Relixander wrote: So I change what my ruling would be... And that's why I think the only "per the rules" answer (without dev intervention) would have to be that you can't plug the hole. It's going to be completely up to each GM. The original poster was asking about PFS (where interpretation is supposed to be uniform), though the question didn't really belong there. We've got a lot of math whizzes around here so:
If we have a 20' pit and it takes a round to rise up, that's 20 feet in 6 seconds. Assuming Golarion gravity is the same as Earth gravity, acceleration due to falling is 32 ft/sec^2 (or a total distance of about 576 feet in six seconds). So I would rule that that 20' move in 6 seconds is nowhere near fast enough to trigger falling damage. Since you wouldn't be in range to full-attack the covering for the whole 6 seconds (unless you have reach), you could only ready a single attack and if you didn't manage to bust through the covering with that one attack, squish.
The point is that it's A) extremely powerful (especially the moonlight bridge variation) and B) completely up to GM interpretation.
Oh, and C) as soon as a GM with a level 4 bad guy does this to players everyone is going to cry foul.
A Moonlight Bridge version would be particularly devastating (120 damage if I use my second method, minus any damage done before the pit rises). However, the Moonlight bridge is only available to the oracle (is this correct? I could only find it referenced under the oracle), and then only if they choose the Heavens mystery, and then the Moonrise Bridge revelation, I am not sure of the frequency of this combination, but it would seem to be a fairly limited tactic because of this, unless there is a more common way to create a horizontal wall of force?. Of course, if you find a group with the ability to do it, I'm sure they'll have fun with it.
I realize in PFS there is a time crunch and the desire for consistency in rulings, but I also don't like the answer of denying creativity because there is not a rule written for ... what ever it is the PC are trying to do ...
Would the answer be the same if the pit was not cast? i.e. There is a pit on the floor, "I cast a wall of stone to bridge the gap." Sorry pits can't be sealed with spells or abilities.
What if it were used defensively? ex. Evil Summoner 1 casts create pit, PCs avoid initial cast, Smarter than the Average Bear PC #A says I'll create a stone wall (or Moonlight Bridge) over the pit to remove the hazard? Still not possible?
Well there may be an out, "the sides of the pit are sloped" doesn't say how much but enough to require a saving throw (so I would assume enough to provide a gap, this area would also be extra dimensional, as is the pit). So one could adjudicate the wall of stone/bridge spell would fail unless it covered/spanned a 20' square/gap (not being able to attach to a portion of the pit as an extra-dimensional surface, you could extend this ruling to adjacent walls that would be affected by the sloping sides. The spell description says 10' pit, but it affects a 20' area. This could also give a gap with the Moonrise bridge on 2 sides allowing a reflex save or a readied action to jump out through it, (unless you are in a 10' wide corridor, the the stone wall would need to be 10x20 rectangle, as would the moonlight bridge, and the moonlight bridge could not be avoided with a save or readied action). This would essential make a wall of stone minimal damage, and an unavoidable Pit/Moonlight Bridge combo rare and situational.
I don't think we should nerf a tactic, until we can determine if a valid adjudication can be resolved under current RAW, which is the point of the discussion?
So I again would change my ruling, which is the point of discussing it.
I would much rather find a way to balance something like this with existing rules than to create new ones for specific situations, maybe my third interpretation can do that?
Belafon wrote:
Oh, and C) as soon as a GM with a level 4 bad guy does this to players everyone is going to cry foul.
In a home game this is absolutely my favourite answer. I won't do insanely hosey things to the PCs unless they've done them to the NPCs. Its amazing how effective it can be to ask "Are you sure you want it to work that way?" :-).
Works the other way too, mind. If the NPCs do something then its fair game for the PCs to do it too/
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
My party once used create pit on an alchemical golem. As it attempted to climb out, I cast communal mount to summon a team of horses which the party then proceeded to force into the pit.
Do you have any idea how much horses weigh?
My party has also dropped folding boats onto people (with no pits) to great effect. See the full story for that here.
Do I think a folding boat would work to squish people in a pit? Not really. If you simply laid it out on top, it probably wouldn't cover the entire pit. Most ships aren't flat on the bottom, thus it would tilt to one side or the other likely leaving a bit of the hole exposed.
What about Create Shelter. It has a stone floor correct? So if someone in the party cast it over my pit it would have the desired squish would it not?
Ack I meant Secure Shelter not Create Shelter.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
By the time they finish casting Secure Shelter, 10 pits would have already expired.
Have your enlarged BSF jump into the pit - Enlarge makes a medium sized character 10' *and* increases weight by x8.
We found that out last night - with gear on BSF is around 350 lbs.... that makes him over a ton.
I have and eidolon and enlarge person. hmm.
TBaileySr wrote: I have and eidolon and enlarge person. hmm. The eidolon would take the falling damage and most creatures don't completely fill the space they occupy, with a few exceptions, so creatures in the pit should still get reflex to avoid. After the fall, assuming things are alive everything would get the squeezed condition.
Might be able to treat the falling eidolon as a charge, but then probably need to allow the creatures in the pit a perception to recognize what is happening to allow a readied action to attack the falling eidolon, and the eidolon is now in the pit.
I'm not so sure the tactic would be beneficial overall, pretty sure it would be fun, or funny, or both.
You guys seem to be thinking about this wrong.
While I guess it would be quite pricey until you can actually cast the spell at no cost, there's a pretty simple answer which is to use a old good old shrink item trick.
Get a thick-ass slab of metal, shrink it down, and now aside from other potential uses like a bridge or a relatively secure door to sleep behind/underneath, you could use it to crush stuff inside a rising pit.
The thing would obviously weigh at least a ton, so unlikely to have anything get out.
Instead of a slab, I guess you could do it to a boulder too, but then it wouldn't have as many (or any?) other uses.
That said, while I might not want PCs exploiting a potentially cheap method (folding boat ain't cheap; I'm surprised you'd even have one at level 4 unless it was a party-shared thing, which I guess something like that would be) to do it, if they're investing thousands of gold to affect monsters that already needed to be victims to an existing spell, there's probably no issue, as long as the plan is sound (folding boat is not sound).
The bigger issue in my opinion is logistics. Ignoring any buffs, the most amount of time possible you could have to perform this technique would be 4 rounds. With the boat technique, you wouldn't have the time to set up before the pit effect ends. I guess the metal plate/slab could still work though.
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