So we hit 5th at the end of today's session (well, I was 25 EXP away but the GM said screw it and gave it to me) and I've become torn between a few options. I am a Master of Many Styles.
I Have the Feats:
Dragon Style
Dragon Ferocity
Snake Style
Snake Fang
Combat Reflexes
I plan to get Panther Style this level, and that's something I'm pretty solid on. I give you that to give you a solid grounding on what combat looks like for me. Basically, I dodge stuff and retaliate with solid hits. I do only slightly less damage than our Barbarian, with a lot more AC, and with the added bonus that I, unlike him, usually end up attacking at least 2 different creatures per round. So I'm very well sold on that combination.
Now, what I've done is at 4th level I replaced Slow Fall with Scorching Ray. I've become very conflicted on a few options here at 5th as a result.
Do I:
A.) Keep High Jump (I haven't seen it as very useful so far)
B.) Trade High Jump to get Slow Fall back (might be situationally useful)
C.) Trade High Jump for another Qinggong power.
If option C, which ones would you suggest? I hear Barkskin is a good option a lot (though it seems less than stellar until I hit about 9th level), but Ki Arrow and True Strike look like they might be good as well.
The other comes in for what I do next level. Which sounds better: Getting Panther Claw for the Free action retaliations, or Parry for the "before attack resolves" retaliations? I'll end up getting both, but one will be delayed until 9th level.
Though considering how tight Swifts are crunched already I may have my answer.
While we're here, what are your opinions on that combination of Styles up there? I figure by the time I hit 8 I can be an AoO provoking combo master, but am I just deluding myself on that? I figure Dragon's damage + Snake's nigh-unhittability + Panther's retaliatory strikes = a damn good combination, but most of you more experienced forumites might have a new perspective.
Last I heard it had been ruled that Power Attack doesn't work with Unarmed Strikes and/or gives a negligible bonus onto Dragon Style. I'll look more into it.
No, a MoMS (when taking Bonus Feats) can ignore prerequisites for Styles as long as he has the base Style. So I took Snake Style as a Feat and then Fang as a Bonus, bypassing Sidewind.
I was looking at Elemental Fist as well a while back and had forgotten it, thanks for reminding me. I may wait until next level to take Panther Style as a Bonus and then take Claw/Parry at level 7, which delays me taking the final until 9, but given I only get to enter 3 Styles at once at level 8, that doesn't sound so bad.
Barksin I'm not too worried about the Ki cost. I have a +4 Wis mod, took the Human Favored class for 4 levels (for a total of 8 Ki), and am a Drunken Master as well (and I get 2 Ki per sip, now), so I'm not overly worried about the 1 Ki for Barkskin if that changes your vote on it.
Standing as a Swift is all well and good, but I'm starved for Swifts already and MoMS has no Flurry, so that falls kind of low in my estimation.
Deny Death looked like a good lifeline, but I kinda feel uncomfortable taking it when there's so many other good options.
Thanks for your reply, I have some new stuff to consider now.
Edit: Looking back at it though, is Elemental Fist really worth taking this early? Yes I get 2d6 Elemental Damage, but only once per day until level 8, when it only increases to two.
Edit 2: Point is moot. I don't have a BaB of +8. Though I could take it as my level 6 Bonus Feat if I wanted.
No - monks of all types get one use of elemental fist PER monk level (and one additional use for every 4 non-monk levels) so a 5 level monk gets 5 uses of Elemental Fist. Not a bad boost to damage output - though a bit less flexible when gotten via Dragon Ferocity (since you have to pick a specific type of damage until you would qualify for the feat - i.e. have a BAB of 8 - monks of the four winds get the full flexibility from level 1 which is quite nice.
A derp a durr on me, I completely missed the "Special" text. So 5/day 2d6 Elemental damage.
Hmm...
Power Attack applies to all melee attacks (and the penalty to all combat maneuvers as well) - what varies is the damage bonus - if you are using a two-handed weapon (or a one-handed weapon you can wield in two hands) or a primary natural attack - i.e. attacks that usually get 1.5x STR but the feat specifies them precisely) you get a 50% boost to power attack's bonus (and similarly if you are using attacks in an off-hand weapon or a secondary natural attack - i.e attacks that usually get 0.5x STR bonus the bonus is reduced). But there is still a bonus.Now how this interacts with the Monk's special natural attacks - i.e. full STR on all attacks when flurrying is a bit less clear - though a moot point in this case since you don't flurry.
Yeah, like I said I'll look into it. I'm hoping Dragon Style/Ferocity applies to it, so I'll get an extra 3 points of damage.
Look into it in this case means "GM, whadda you think?"
But it is worth noting that once you "turn on" power attack it persists until you next turn - so all AoOs you take would be at the penalty - but also get the bonus damage which in your case might be nice if you are routinely getting a lot of AoO's.
This I did not know, and I do plan on taking a lot of AoOs (Panther Style is still on the menu, if delayed for a level).
That said it can be hard to consistently get AoO's. You may want to consider the Step Up chain of feats to make it that much easier to keep getting AoO's if that is a primary focus for your build. (always nice to Step Up to the caster trying to avoid provoking... )
I'm not sure if I want it to be the primary focus, but what I'd like to do is be able to ruthlessly punish anyone who dares try to AoO me. I can't find anything by RAW or by logic that precludes me from using Snake Style's attacks on an AoO, so that's what I'm working off of.
Basically, I don't want to DEAL AoOs, I want to provoke, and then retaliate against them.
Well then, it seems like I have three solid choices:
Panther Style: Easily delayed until next level.
Elemental Fist: Acid damage shouldn't be too restricting, especially if I decided to take Shaitan Style at some point (gotta do SOMETHING with those other Bonus Feats) and it gives me another good damage option besides Unarmed Strikes and Scorching Ray.
Power Attack: A possible extra +3 to damage when in Dragon Style, +2 out of it. Nawt bayd.
Clarification: Special attacks like Elemental Fist and Stunning Fist can be used on AoOs and retaliatory strikes, right? Since they're basically Punch+?
Edit: GM says Power Attack is a no-go, he doesn't consider Unarmed Strikes as eligible.
Your GM is ruling that unarmed attacks can't be used with Power Attack? Is he house-ruling it? Because Power Attack is most definitely compatible with unarmed strikes, by RAW.
Your GM is ruling that unarmed attacks can't be used with Power Attack? Is he house-ruling it? Because Power Attack is most definitely compatible with unarmed strikes, by RAW.
Sort of. He's ruling that Unarmed Strikes with dragon Style are not eligible for the 1.5x Str bonus portion of it, which makes it a slightly less desirable option IMO, considering I feel I'm already dealing enough raw damage and have some slight problems with Attack rolls already.
Basically he's saying it would only have an effect on my regular US, not my Dragon US.
Yeah, I guess a 10 foot jump IS nice.
What disappoints me is you never get that 30 foot jump.
Oh, as for my stats, I'll copy pasta from my profile. Done with a Standard random roll.
Sun Xiao, Human Monk 5 (Drunken Master of Many Qinggong Styles)
Strength 21
Dexterity 14
Constitution 15
Intelligence 14
Wisdom 18
Charisma 12
Yes, hold your applause. Str and Wis are augmented though, Belt of Giant's Strength and Headband of Inspired Wisdom both +2.
Yeah, I guess a 10 foot jump IS nice.
What disappoints me is you never get that 30 foot jump.
Oh, as for my stats, I'll copy pasta from my profile. Done with a Standard random roll.
Sun Xiao, Human Monk 5 (Drunken Master of Many Qinggong Styles)
Strength 21
Dexterity 14
Constitution 15
Intelligence 14
Wisdom 18
Charisma 12Yes, hold your applause. Str and Wis are augmented though, Belt of Giant's Strength and Headband of Inspired Wisdom both +2.
I have similar stats, as my group rolls as well for some reason, lol.
Yeah, it's unfortunate the game doesn't make those heroic leaps a bit easier to do, but two levels of ninja make those 30' jumps totally doable before the high levels. I was also considering monkey style, to get wis to jump lol (But in a naval campaign, jump and a climb move speed are pretty useful).
Slow fall is horrible. I can see the value of scorching ray for a melee monk. I think feather steps is the best first pick though, as difficult terrain is fairly common, and being able to negate it early is nice...
doesn't dragon style already negate it when charging?
Yeah, unfortunately RAW Dragon Ferocity doesn't let you use the 1.5x str power attack rules, which I think is unfair...
I would suggest you go for Crane Style and then Wing (and Riposte if you can fit it in, but less necessary), which combos very nicely with Snake Fang. Panther seems cool, but it relies far too much on monster stupidity for my liking. All they have to do is opt to not AoO you and the whole feat tree is useless.
I wouldn't have gotten Scorching Ray, it's too costly for what it does, but too late to change, I guess. Definitely trade High Jump for Barkskin. That's a big AC boost for decent duration for only 1 ki. Long run, it just saves you money / body slot on amulet of nat armor, but... that's still well worth a ki point or 2.
If you can switch out the Scorching Ray, I'd suggest getting True Strike instead. Note that eventually, you will be able to take Quicken Spell-like Ability on True Strike, and also note that True Strike's bonus applies to combat maneuver checks.
Crane not just negates an attack, it also boosts your AC by 4 (assuming 3 ranks in Acrobatics) with fighting defensively. And Snake Fang turns misses into damage, so it is a nice synergy. My problem with Panther is that all they have to do is opt to not AoO you. In order to ignore snake + crane, they'd have to not attack you at all.
As for Barkskin... you put it up when you enter the dungeon, or are rushing towards a brawl in the town square. Or whatever. It lasts 10 min/level, you can't just have it up all day, but IME most games, you have a rough idea of when you're going to face fights. Maybe not accurately to within a few minutes, but certainly enough to get some use out of barkskin. Overland travel and wandering monsters while camping for the night being the major exceptions, of course.
You could take True Strike at 7, though I like Gaseous Form there. Actually used it a few weeks ago with my monk when the entire party got knocked out, captured, and bound in masterwork manacles/chains (in that order) to escape the restraints. I think that partially foiled the DM's plans for us.... :D
EDIT: And the PA thing is unfair because you're attacking with a weapon / natural weapon at 1.5x str to damage. PA says you're supposed to be getting 3:1 in that situation. Hell, with Dragon Style + Ferocity, you're actually doing TWO times str mod on damage w/ your first unarmed hit each round, and yet you STILL don't get the higher PA rate!
Not sure what flurry has to do with anything, this is a Master of Many Styles we're talking about right now. While normal monk can get Dragon feats, it's not going to be very common, and one doing so is shutting out using any other style feats to do so. So even then, I don't see why it's such a big deal to allow.
I'm gonna go ahead and take Barkskin. It only costs 1 Ki, and all I have to do is take a sip of whiskey when I suspect a battle coming up and burn that if I'm out.
I'm thinking about Crane Style. When it says "fighting defensively as a standard action" does that mean I have to spend a standard action to swap into defense and then I get to act next round, or does it mean I just declare "I am fighting defensively" and make an attack as normal, but with the -2 or -1 penalty?
And I HAD already planned to get Gaseous Form at 7, though True Strike would be good too. Wishing the abilities weren't staggered out like they were, because I'd like to get Dragon's Breath or something, but that pops in at 8 and the next thing I can trade out is Abundant Step...which seems like a bad trade.
Also, isn't Quicken Spell-Like Ability a Monster-only Feat?
Where does Crane say "as a standard action"?
I looked it up and the feats says:
Crane Style (Combat, Style)
Your unarmed fighting techniques blend poise with graceful defense.Prerequisites: Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +2 or monk level 1st.
Benefit: You take only a –2 penalty on attack rolls for fighting defensively. While using this style and fighting defensively or using the total defense action, you gain an additional +1dodge bonus to your Armor Class.
You'd just fight defensively, which you can declare on basically any sort of attack action, whether it be a full attack or not.
Quicken SLA is not monster-only. It's listed in the Bestiary, but its only requirement is a SLA at CL 10+. PFS and some DMs don't allow Bestiary feats for players, but there is no such rule in the game itself.
Unfortunately, you can't take it till your 11th level feat, which is the same time you have the +8 BAB to qualify for Touch of Serenity, Punishing Kick, etc... Which are nice to grab as a monk, due to getting them 1/day per monk level, each. So, tough choices for feats at that point...
Where does Crane say "as a standard action"?
You'd just fight defensively, which you can declare on basically any sort of attack action, whether it be a full attack or not.
Crane doesn't say it, but Fighting Defensively does on the COmbat page. Hence my confusion, thanks for the clarification.
You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 to AC until the start of your next turn.
Quicken SLA is not monster-only. It's listed in the Bestiary, but its only requirement is a SLA at CL 10+. PFS and some DMs don't allow Bestiary feats for players, but there is no such rule in the game itself.Unfortunately, you can't take it till your 11th level feat, which is the same time you have the +8 BAB to qualify for Touch of Serenity, Punishing Kick, etc... Which are nice to grab as a monk, due to getting them 1/day per monk level, each. So, tough choices for feats at that point...
Good point. =/
I actually hadn't even thought about getting those two. I didn't even realize Touch of Serenity was a Feat.
More stuff to look at!
My point regarding barkskin is that it's simply a waste of ki 90% of the time. Especially if you also take crane. You negate two attacks per turn for free. Your AC is (mostly) irrelevant.
I also just don't like taking powers that are easily replicated with low level spells. Gaseous form is cool, but it's rarely needed, so you can just carry one potion and be covered. Whereas that quickened truestrike trick is not easily duplicated with gear/consumables.
For defensive, you just say, "I'm attacking defensively this round."
There are no 'monster only' feats really. The book explicitly states characters that qualify for them may take them (as with everything else, with gm approval).
Gotcha on the last part, utterly disagree on the first.
My GM has learned very quickly that sending a single monster after me is a good way for me to go "NOPE. I have +25 Sense Motive." if it manages to hit my 18 AC and then punch it in the shnozz.
As a result, I usually don't get attacked by fewer than 3 things at once (though never of things that would be really difficult to handle one one one, he's not a douche), so raising my AC is always important, even if I can negate 2 attacks per round.
Crane negates 1 attack per round. If you mean using Snake Style, that's far from guaranteed, and wastes your swift/immediate you could've used for other things.
While I somewha agree with you on class features that mimic low level spells, I think a distinction needs to be made for low level spells that rely on CL and/or casting stat heavily for duration, save DC, effect, etc.... and low level spells that don't care about any of that. An example of the latter would be Obscuring Mist, which only uses CL for duration, and 1 min. is usually enough anyway, and has no use at all for casting stat. That is an example of a spell tto get on a scroll/wand. Another example is ki arrow, one of the qinggong options.
But then look at Barkskin. The AC bonus is CL-dependent, and the duration makes a huge difference if you're CL 5 or 15. It is also a fairly powerful effect for its spell level.
So what I'm saying is, intrinsically, spell level alone should not determine whether a spell is worth casting / having as a class feature vs. as an item.
And the point with Gaseous Form is, many of the times you might "need" it, you CAN'T just swig a potion of it.
Last I heard it had been ruled that Power Attack doesn't work with Unarmed Strikes and/or gives a negligible bonus onto Dragon Style. I'll look more into it.
[...]
Standing as a Swift is all well and good, but I'm starved for Swifts already and MoMS has no Flurry, so that falls kind of low in my estimation.
As a MoMS, I wouldn't waste a power on Ki Stand. Just pick up Monkey Style as your next bonus feat: take no penalties when fighting from prone, move and stand up without taking AoO.
Power Attack does work with UAS, but since UAS is only one-handed, you don't do 1 1/2 times like two-handed weapons can. You don't flurry, so you don't have to worry about halving the Power Attack bonus on your off hand.
The problem is if he's in Monkey style, it means he's not in Crane, Snake, or something else.
So Ki Stand is a better choice than Monkey Style. That said, it's still pretty weak and situational, so I wouldn't bother with it. It's much better for a Zen Archer Monk, who can't shoot his bow prone and can't flurry if he wasted a move action to stand.
As a MoMS, I wouldn't waste a power on Ki Stand. Just pick up Monkey Style as your next bonus feat: take no penalties when fighting from prone, move and stand up without taking AoO.
Ehhh, Monkey Style honestly looks like the worst of all the Styles to me. I was thinking about making a straight-up Drunken Master (a la Jackie Chan) before I turned that into Sun Xiao as he is currently, and I would've had Monkey Style in there, but I just couldn't get that interested beyond "Hehehe you have a monkey on your back".
And besides that, I'd have to swap out one of my other Styles just to do that, which is another Swift action already.
Ah, yeah, that's a pretty big difference. Fortunately for me, my DM doesn't metagame combat quite that much, so the number of people swinging at me is generally decided more organically, via my positioning, their intent, etc. This may change over time of course, as she gets more annoyed with snake...
Yeah, the first time I did it he was like "...Huh." it took a few fights but eventually he decided that the only way I was ever gonna get damaged was if I had at least two people on me, so he usually sends the weaker of whatever we're fighting ATM after me (or to be fair, me or the Barbarian, who doesn't dodge everything so much as tank it and then chop 'em in half) to keep me from being able to just completely negate an enemy.
I enjoy it though because generally these are things I can wreck in one hit or things that would only take two hits at most, so sometimes I end up dodging all 3 of them and killing 3 dudes when it's not even my turn.
Kinda bit me when we came across Plague Zombies though. I tried to stay away from 'em but it was either take the explosion or let them run up next to the Druid and Sorcerer. Passed all my saves but the 4th (one at the start of the fight, 3 right then), and ended up taking a point of Con damage.
But it evens out since there've been a lot of single combat opportunities in the storyline, which gives me the opportunity to beat down a guy who can't touch me.
So now I've decided on my Feat for this level, Elemental Fist, because an extra 2d6 Acid damage 5/day is a pretty hefty amount.
I'm now wavering between True Strike and Gaseous Form. True Strike would be great for when I just need to hit that guy, but most of the time I NEED to hit someone it's an issue with them passing a Fort save by the skin of their teeth after I hit 'em. If I could get that Feat it'd move up to the top of the list.
Gaseous Form I initially wanted to get just so I could go through locked doors because the movement is so slooooow on it.
One important further note for you about Power Attack is how it will scale in the future as your BAB increases (so at level 6 as a monk - BAB 4 it will function at -2 / +4 etc. )
It is a bit better for monks that flurry since when you flurry your bab would be higher so at level 4 as a monk when you flurry w/power attack you would get the -2 / +4.
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Tiger Claws, Tiger Style, base attack bonus +9 or monk level 8th.
Benefit: While using the Tiger Style feat, you can apply the penalty from Power Attack to your AC instead of attack rolls. Additionally, once per round as a swift action, you can move up to half your speed closer to a target you hit with an unarmed strike or made a successful combat maneuver against on this turn or your last turn.
Tiger Style (Combat, Style)
Your unarmed fighting style emulates the strength and ferocity of a tiger.
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +3 or monk level 3rd.
Benefit: While using this style, you gain a +2 bonus to your CMD against bull rush, overrun, and trip maneuvers. You can also deal slashing damage with your unarmed strikes. Whenever you score a critical hit with your slashing unarmed strike, your opponent also takes 1d4 points of bleed damage at the start of his next two turns.
Normal: Unarmed strikes deal bludgeoning damage.
One thing to note is that with Tiger Style+Tiger Pounce+Power Attack you recieve no negative to hit and still get +2damage/4BaB on each hit. From the math I have run tiger style is the best DPR boost most melle classes can take.
Note: You do NOT need to move or charge to take advantage of Tiger Pounce.
D'oh!
I forgot about Tiger Style.
D'oh!
I forgot about Tiger Style.
Yeah personally I recommend.
5th: Tiger Style
6th(Bonus): Tiger Pounce
7th: Power Attack
At 7th that would mean your attack routine unarmed before any buffs or enhancement would be:
+10(1d8+(7[str+DragonStyle])+(4[PA])+(2[Dragon Ferocity])/+5(1d8+(5[str])+(4[PA])+(2[Dragon Ferocity])
At 8th you would be able to Snake/Dragon/Tiger
And barkskin is amazing as Qinggong if you are going unarmed, I highly recommend it, it will basically counter the AC hit you take from Tiger.
Why is your elemental fist 2d6?
Dragon Ferocity makes your Elemental Fist damage scale as if you were a Monk of the Four Winds, so every 5 levels it goes up by 1d6.
Personally, I would go with crane or panther to get more counterattacks in. Since you don't have (and can't easily get) twf, counterattacks are the best way to get multiple attacks. And another attack increases your damage far more than an extra D6 or even power attack.
Crane with snake = three counter attacks if a baddie swings at you once. Panther is more risky since the baddies have to take their AoOs and it's likely that your GM will just not have them do so. (Panther, crane, and snake together is just funny)
I was thinkin' Crane too. Tiger might be good for slashing damage, but I'm thinking of taking Boar later anyway, so eh.
The only reason I wanted Panther was for the possibility of getting 3 AoOs on a guy, and Crane lets me do that even more reliably.
So I'll be Dragon, Snake, Crane.
Dragon gives me a good enough damage and 3 hits when it ain't even my turn's not too shabby.
Yeah, I'm lovin' it so far. I was playing a standard Monk before, but was able to trade him out for this guy once we hit level 4-ish.
I was not very happy with the other guy but I'm having SO much fun with this one. I love how MoMS mixes with so many of the other Archetypes as well, so you can mix and match between just about anything. That and the Style Feats are all so good.
I can honestly say I'm not missing Flurry of Blows at ALL.