Goblin Squad Member
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I really approve of this, as a player that intends to solo quite a bit and be very self sufficient.. I will likely take skills from all over the place. It's nice to know that I won't be locked out of the "dedication" abilities because of my play style and that at some point in the future should I ever want to use them, I only need to narrow my focus a bit on my equipped abilities.
With the way that the old Capstone system sounded, it made me feel like anyone would be better off shooting for a powerful capstone and then branching out so they would always have a leg up over their competition. This relieves all of the concerns I had about it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@gloom
its funny because capstones were put in (in the table top) to encourage people to stick to using a single class. As it happened a lot of people tended to multi class, and more often than not correctly multi classing allowed a player to end up more powerful than if they stayed a single class. Also a lot of players would go through a prestige class, thus deviating from the core class.
however i do like dedication because the problem with the capstone is no pay off until you get to the highest level you dont get anything before that, but with dedication you get benefits as you go.
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Goblin Squad Member
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capstones need to be removed when multi-classing as thats the entire reason capstones were added.
Capstones were specifically added to give people a reason to NOT multi-class. It is there to provide someone with a benefit for sticking to a single class. The fact of the matter is that without a capstone mechanically for most builds it pays to dip a couple levels into another class or two, or to leave the core class and go into a prestige class.
Now apperently dedication is not wiped away by say going cleric/paladin. Since there will be ability/weapon slots if you slot all cleric abilities you get access to their dedication, if you slot all paladin stuff you get access to their dedication. But if you slot cleric and paladin stuff you dont get dedication as your advantage is you get more options.
Anyway i dont see why capstone/dedication should be retained while slotting different archtype abilities. Dedication can serve to balance single archtypes against mutli-classing and also provide incentives to stick to a class.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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capstones need to be removed when multi-classing as thats the entire reason capstones were added.
Capstones were specifically added to give people a reason to NOT multi-class. It is there to provide someone with a benefit for sticking to a single class. The fact of the matter is that without a capstone mechanically for most builds it pays to dip a couple levels into another class or two, or to leave the core class and go into a prestige class.
Now apperently dedication is not wiped away by say going cleric/paladin. Since there will be ability/weapon slots if you slot all cleric abilities you get access to their dedication, if you slot all paladin stuff you get access to their dedication. But if you slot cleric and paladin stuff you dont get dedication as your advantage is you get more options.
Anyway i dont see why capstone/dedication should be retained while slotting different archtype abilities. Dedication can serve to balance single archtypes against mutli-classing and also provide incentives to stick to a class.
My understanding was that capstones are gone and dedication only works if you have all your abilities slotted for one class.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Uthreth,
I see Divination - Forewarned, but I don't see a similar "Capstone" type ability for Universalist.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Nihimon,
There are multiple things about Universalist wizards that lead me to believe that Paizo didn't intend for wizards to choose that option. I suppose this is just another one of those things. You could argue though that their Metamagic Mastery ramps up faster than the equivalent specialist abilities (or most of them, anyway) so that at level 20 it's essentially equally powerful to a capstone.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Affirmative. Other info: it isn't something you want to spend time on in melee combat situations. That means it will take a bit of time to swap out slots.
..• I assume that 'slotted' things can be changed with some in-game method and are not permanently locked?...
Just wanted to be sure. In an open non-class system that PFO proports to be having lock in is both counter-intuitive and frustrating. Hence why I rage quite hard when capstones were first suggested.
That's how most "respec" options in games work. I've yet to see a game that lets you tweak yourself in the middle of action. I used to be big into EVE and I'm used their Implant system which was their way of getting the most out of a "build". Kind of their "dedication" system. I had a clone for both being a Mining operations boss and one focused for Armor Tanking Fleet action. Jumping clones took time to move or the correct location and actually having to dock and leave ongoing combat. Likewise the ships themselves rewarded only certain types of skill. Changing ships changed what your "class" was. Even games like WoW or CoH that offer respecs on actually class skills were only doable at specific sites and often involved a bit of in-game currency.
Even kit base shooters only let you rekit when you die or run all the way back to a "spawn" point.
Got no problem with changing slots having a time(cool down) and/or money requirement. As long as it isn't too ornerous (like only being able to reslot once a month for 1/2 your net worth) and that you can actually do it at some point. Again the rage at "lockin" in a class-less system.
In EVE I used to be a Mining boss, Battleship and lower fleet filler, Stealth cargo runner, command ship fleet officer, and building to several other things. I could never be all of those at once and it often took 10 to 30 minutes to go get the right ship and be in the right clone for a group operation. The point was I could be any one of those roles when I chose too. I wasn't penalized for not staying wedded to Command Ship track and dipping into stealth cargo ships and Battleships.
Hence why I'm super happy for this change. The Capstone made me say "well that's my Kickstarter money down the s+*&ter", and swiched with Dedications to "man I wish I was in a better fiscal position at this point to throw more money into backing this."
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A "capstone" carrot for finishing out a whole "class" can get a bit different then it was, what with dedication. The original idea for capstones was the "atta-boy" you done focused down a whole skill tree. Here's a cookie. I'm saying it would nice to be able to nibble that cookie while starting on the next focus.
Dedication is there as the practical reward for actually playing that role actively. A capstone should be enjoyable to some degree even when not in that role.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think it should be harder to switch out abilities than going to the nearest settlement. Personally, I would prefer if we could do it with a camp or study session, similar to how spellcasters switch out spells. If I dip into ranger just to be able to survive going from point A to B solo in the wilderness and want to change out when I get there to my primary class abilities, I don't think that's too much to ask for. Even if it takes like 5 minutes of just sitting there waiting for the new abilities to take hold, that would be fine, but having to lock in your abilities for days or weeks or having to pay lots of money would be too ridiculous (in that way I agree with you). That kind of cost should be for a respec of your skill points, which I personally think should pretty much never be allowed - only when a fundamental part of the game changes, which hopefully will never happen.
Think more like GuildWars where you could only take X number of abilities into an instance, rather than WoW where you switched up your abilities by doing a full talent respec which had a ramping cost. The former is much better for this kind of sandbox game and skill system. Remember that we're not just talking about multiclass abilities, I could want to switch up abilities within the same class - maybe I want Camouflage instead of Manyshot because I'll be in close quarters underground or something. The last ranger I played was 3.5 so the abilities might be different but you get the point.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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EVE's only real costs were replacing implants, buying clones, and buying replacment ships.
The time element in EVE was moving clones and gear into place. There is a 24 hour limit on jump cloning, however that was really more for keeping people from jumping to and then escaping from a system siege whenever they felt like it. Although it also meant people couldn't jump into different highly optimized builds mid-go either. If I had implants for fleet commanding, I couldn't switch over to being the sneakest of stealth bombers in the same day.... not without paying serious loads of credits for replacing implants on the clone I was in, which I never did but could see some of the more serious hard core PvPers doing just for that fraction of an edge.
The good thing is Goblinworks will have time to fiddle with time limits and costs as the game grows. PvP is where reslotting from one build into a more approprate one could be an issue. A ranged Ranger running into the "safe" respec loction when the enemy gets close and then running back out as TWF build would be a very simple example.
Assuming the 2.5 year per class mastery still holds it'll likey take 5 years for serious "quick swaps" to become obviously game breaking. Then again CoO gave us Pun-Pun and the Omnimancer back in the 3.5 days so I wouldn't put it past number churches to find every last abusable aspect within the first year of active game play.
(I'm much more a PvEer but I aware that for games like PFO, PvE will get the rough end of things in favor of keeping PvP balanced.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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What I think is absolutelly necessary and really very important is GW let us all know what exactly will be the bonus we are going to have by playing each archetype role strictly. So then we can make a decision based on true knlowedge of the the advantages and disadvantages or cross-classing or not.
I Don't want to be making some blind choices just to find out that I would like better to cross-class my ranger than wait to the end to have a bonus that isn't exactly the kind of bonus I expected.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Since you can always switch out skills later as I understand it, all you lose is time. And I presume it'd tell us what the dedication bonus is. At the least, if you have all ranger skills slotted, it'll probably appear as a buff someone so you could read it. Or so I would assume.
Tell me if I have this correct: players will have a maximum of 20 levels worth of skills to slot. This can be 10 levels of this, 5 levels of that, and 5 levels of that other class. When you reach 20 "levels" of one "class" or "role", and you slot a majority of those skills or feats, you receive the focus bonus or capstone. Is that correct?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Nope, not as I understand it.
There is no "max" of levels, except the top of a certain skill tree. They said if you somehow played for, oh, 17+ years, you could master everything. You can keep learning everything.
As I understand it you just get the dedication bonus when you only slot only skills of one class, and as far as I know you get the bonus at any "level", even before you max a class.
Sorry, let me clarify - you can learn every skill/feat there is to learn, even if it takes 19 years, but you can only slot a maximum number. If you slot a majority of feats from one role/class, you then receive the focus/capstone.
Is that right?
No, not quite. All the slotted skills must be from one role/class you would receive a dedication bonus. Some skills might be cross class meaning several classes might share that skill in their "skill tree" and that would be OK.
But I could be wrong