The Future of Outsiders: Your opinions.


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


I'd like to ask something, and you can take it where you may...

What do you want to see done with Outsiders?

If you're not sure yet, here's a few questions to get you started:

->What outsider subtypes do you want to see more species put in? (Azata, Devil, Etc.)
->Are the Fiendish outsiders more important to you? Or Celestials?
->What about the Lawful/Chaotic Neutral outsiders? (Inevitables, Proteans, etc.)
->Would it be nice to have a less "Mordenkai" and less crazy True Neutral Outsider/Outsider-Subtype?
->What kind of Outsiders do you expect to be included if more were added?
->Would you want more Outsider Subtypes available?

I have a few personal wants, but I'll leave them till later, or this post might get long.


I want to see more Celestials.

Bring out all the Good from the planes!


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I'd like to see Asuras expanded upon. They seem to be the most interesting fiendish race.


I'd Personally Like to see more Azatas.

They've got an alignment I like, they've got some kind of "One with the elements" thing going on, and they've still only got... what? Five kinds?

I can already picture a few they could use.

-One for Moon, Night and Darkness.
-One for Water.
-One for Thunder.
-One for Nature.

Not to mention a few that would be... Dubiously interesting suggestions...


The only issue I see with more Celestials is that most things you put in a bestiary, players are gonna wanna kill. Good-aligned characters would not want to go hunting Celestials, so why stat them out?

Personally, I want there to be more aliens. Though I dunno if extra-planetary creatures can be called Outsiders.


Harrison wrote:

The only issue I see with more Celestials is that most things you put in a bestiary, players are gonna wanna kill. Good-aligned characters would not want to go hunting Celestials, so why stat them out?

Personally, I want there to be more aliens. Though I dunno if extra-planetary creatures can be called Outsiders.

True, but there's quite a few spells and scenarios that call upon the celestials for aid.

... and then there's the fact that... some of the weirder sessions often involve PCs that are from among their ranks, and have business that involves going to the material plane.

-Both good reasons to consider. Along with others.

And though I don't want to admit it... Evil PCs and PC groups are quite possible.

Contributor

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I would love to write the Proteanomicon. Just saying, if anyone is listening up there. :D

They're near and dear to me. Very much so. Go go xaos wyrms.

But, that said, I'd actually enjoy getting to expand upon the axiomites a lot more as well. If I'd had the space, I'd have expanded originally on the mention of different groups and castes, and thus more than just the base type that was written up. However since then they've developed largely as just the one type but with a myriad of types of inevitables that they created. Without trampling on subsequent development, it'd be cool to go into more depth on the axiomites and explore them more.

Contributor

Harrison wrote:
The only issue I see with more Celestials is that most things you put in a bestiary, players are gonna wanna kill. Good-aligned characters would not want to go hunting Celestials, so why stat them out?

Because conflict doesn't have to imply combat, but printed stats give you the mechanical framework for handling various flavors of interaction, plus it's an excuse to include more ecology details on the side.

Plus printed stats are useful if you have celestials helping out PCs in or out of combat.

Plus there's always evil PCs going up against celestials.

Plus there can be ideological conflicts, even terribly violent ones, between equally good groups of people and celestials might occasionally be summoned into such a conflict.

And there's always the use of stats if you have a PC actually playing a celestial.


Harrison wrote:

The only issue I see with more Celestials is that most things you put in a bestiary, players are gonna wanna kill. Good-aligned characters would not want to go hunting Celestials, so why stat them out?

Personally, I want there to be more aliens. Though I dunno if extra-planetary creatures can be called Outsiders.

To have celestial cohorts!^^

Dark Archive

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1) More Law & Chaos stuff. I would love to little bits a place somewhere in the universe (such as my Engine of Creation concept) where an uneasy alliance (with the occasional 'friendly fire accidents') of archons, inevitables, axiomites and devils work together to preserve some lawful site of significance against occasional attacks by protean choruses, abyssal hordes or, rarely, a qlippothic incursion. (Formians don't participate, as they don't play well with others, which, given it's an alliance that has both archons and devils in it, says something about the formians...)

2) Formians to not be outsiders, just critters that can be found on the planes. (Precedent now exists in Pathfinder for non-outsiders and even non extraplanar creatures to exist on the planes, as all celestial, fiendish, etc. creatures summoned via Summon Monster are normal creatures of their type, with no extraplanar traits or outsider-y bits.)

3) More good outsiders. Angels have a 'celestial body' theme going on, with the planetar and solar, does that follow through to smaller 'lunars' or vast gaseous 'nebulars' or groups of angels gathering in 'constellations' to enact powerful ritual combined effects that can only be maintained as long as X number of angels remain in a precise configuration, as if spelling out some enormous celestial glyph or sigil?

"We can't defeat those accursed angels, sire! We have to break up that formation, or they'll remain unstoppable! Target all attacks on those three near the middle, if we can just kill them, and stop any others from stepping into replace them, the whole glyph will collapse..."

Azata have a nature-y theme. Archons go all over the place. Developments of either would be welcome, if for no other reason, so that good aligned spellcasters have something they can summon other than 'celestial tyrannosaurus' or such freakishness.

4) More Kytons! More Rakshasa! The 'big 3' evil outsiders; Daemons, Demons and Devils, have gotten a ton of development. Kytons and Rakshasa would be my top choices to get more love.

5) More Proteans. I like Proteans.


Set wrote:
1) More Law & Chaos stuff. I would love to little bits a place somewhere in the universe (such as my Engine of Creation concept) where an uneasy alliance (with the occasional 'friendly fire accidents') of archons, inevitables, axiomites and devils work together to preserve some lawful site of significance against occasional attacks by protean choruses, abyssal hordes or, rarely, a qlippothic incursion. (Formians don't participate, as they don't play well with others, which, given it's an alliance that has both archons and devils in it, says something about the formians...)

Why not a counterpart to it? Okay, granted, the dynamic would be completely different as well, but I've got a thought.

Think of a place that exists as a sort of place for the various kinds of chaotic outsiders to gather and compete. And there, disputes between the three would be settled in tests of skill.

And when these games aren't going on, they could swap tricks they've gathered over the years.

...That's probably off topic though.

Set wrote:
Azata have a nature-y theme. Archons go all over the place. Developments of either would be welcome, if for no other reason, so that good aligned spellcasters have something they can summon other than 'celestial tyrannosaurus' or such freakishness.

I saw that too. And I mentioned it, but I phrased it more as "Elemental Good", considering that Agathions are the ones with all the Beast people.

Set wrote:
5) More Proteans. I like Proteans.

...I often notice... There's very little said about protean behavior other than "Destroy order, enact Chaos". I'd love to see that expanded or explained.

I mean, if they destroy the order in the world, will people be gone too? Cause that's kinda not so "Neutral".

What about generally helpful Proteans that simply just don't like how order dictates how things happen?

*shrug*


Harrison wrote:

The only issue I see with more Celestials is that most things you put in a bestiary, players are gonna wanna kill. Good-aligned characters would not want to go hunting Celestials, so why stat them out?

Celestials make better sacrifices to the Nameless Darkness than mortal beings.

It's much more useful to enslave a critter via Planar Binding, et. al., when it has some healing/curative powers of which to take advantage. Not to mention the blasphemy for fun and profit of making Simulacra of Celestials to subvert worshippers of good-aligned deities.


I'd prefer more outsiders with actual caster levels. They are a breeze to customize through additional class levels and tend to be better rounded than their SLA only brethren.

As to additional races I'm not really feeling the need, yeah it would be awesome if Slaad and Modrons were open content but they aren't.

Dark Archive

Set wrote:

3) More good outsiders. Angels have a 'celestial body' theme going on, with the planetar and solar, does that follow through to smaller 'lunars' or vast gaseous 'nebulars' or groups of angels gathering in 'constellations' to enact powerful ritual combined effects that can only be maintained as long as X number of angels remain in a precise configuration, as if spelling out some enormous celestial glyph or sigil?

"We can't defeat those accursed angels, sire! We have to break up that formation, or they'll remain unstoppable! Target all attacks on those three near the middle, if we can just kill them, and stop any others from stepping into replace them, the whole glyph will collapse..."

Most awesome concept!

I'd like to see some more Divs and an in-depth treaty about the Ethereal Plane. It's often the very first glimpse of the multiverse PCs are exposed to, and it holds all manner of weirdness; it's a pity to have it limited to a grey foggy blank nothingness.


Kytons, Asuras, Proteans, Aeons, Azatas, Qlippoth. Proteans really got the shaft, with their big bad outsider only being a CR 17. Plus there's only four of them? Come on. Asuras are just all sorts of cool, kytons are a big part of my current campaign, aeons are a creative take on the concept of true neutral (oh, passive balance? lolwut, yeah right), azatas for all the reasons previously stated, and qlippoths because they're so damn evil and crazy.


Don't really want to see more good outsiders. There's already a solid variety to fit the needs of allied characters, while there's always a need for more kinds of outsiders to kill.

With that said, I don't necessarily need them to be blatantly evil types either. I think Aeons, Kami, and Inevitables are the ones I would like to see the most. Ones that could easily go either way depending on the story.


I pretty much would be happy for more outsiders of all sorts that fall outside the Devil-Daemon-Demon paradigm. Not that devils and demons aren't cool...just that the other groups are in sore need of getting fleshed out.

As for new groups, I would like to see more Neutral(ish) outsider types, besides Inevitables, proteans, psychopomps, and Aeons. Outsiders associated with Time, interdimensional peacekeepers, etc.


I think we have had enough of the azati, daemons, demons, devils and the like. I'd like to see more outsider monsters rather than expand upon the alignment races.

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