Goblin Squad Member
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The main thing that is keeping me from embracing PfO as a pvp centric game is that the more pvp focus there is the less this game will resemble the tabletop version. There are just too many abilities, high level abilities, that just can't be balanced.
When I stop and remind myself that this is not suppose to be a recreation of a table top session the pvp pill is easier to swallow.
indeed, when it comes to abilities, it is a mistake to assume they will work identically to how they work in P&P. Per the goals of the game, a capstoned character, is not intended to have a 100% chance of winning every fight to a level 1 character. The difference in power between characters, is not intended to be the P&P path of from
level 1: Oops that housecat scored a crit on me, I'm in critical condition
Level 20: Oh crap, I sneezed and accidentally destroyed a country
In PFO the general concept I recall is for the general power to feel around 7th level early on, and round off feeling more like 12th. (note they wanted to extremely strongly emphasize that has no bearing on what abilities will and won't be in the game, all of that is up in the air, and I would bet most skills, spells and abilities will be very mechanically different from their tabletop counterparts).
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Goblin Squad Member
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The main thing that is keeping me from embracing PfO as a pvp centric game is that the more pvp focus there is the less this game will resemble the tabletop version.
I understand the concern but I think it's a mistake to see PFO as a "PvP centric game" only. The game will give you lots of options with various risk/reward levels. I'm sure you'll be able to stay in a safe zone to run NPC missions, just don't expect it to be very rewarding.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Teleport as written in the pathfinder guide, would almost certainly squash any chance of seperate economies, a transport industry, most protection industries etc...
The Teleport spell specifies you can bring up to your maximum load with yourself and bring one person per 3 caster level so that won't be enough for a caravan. That and the spell is 5th level so not something we'll be able to train in a few days (the parallel would be cyno field in EVE).
Invisibility, could be implimented, but it is still not a certainty on any level.
Agreed but that's a really basic option to provide players. Invisibility works both in offense for surprise attacks and defense for sneaking pass enemies, it is just too important! That and it's early entry for casters, non-caster could buy a magic ring for cheap (again, cloaking devices were pretty easy to get in EVE).
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Goblin Squad Member
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The Teleport spell specifies you can bring up to your maximum load with yourself and bring one person per 3 caster level so that won't be enough for a caravan. That and the spell is 5th level so not something we'll be able to train in a few days (the parallel would be cyno field in EVE).
And? time it takes to train is irrelevant, eventually there will be no shortage of wizards, sorcerers etc... available. As written in P&P, 4 wizards, lets assume a str of 10 for the wizards that's 400 lbs there pair each wizard up with 3 barbarians with 18 str, now our total capacity is 4,000 lbs... 3 times per day, instantaniously...
Quite frankly you are going to need some stuff that is pretty darn heavy, and nearly worthless for someone to want to take the time to gather up a full sized defensive party, trek through the woods, and risk life and limb to move it, and then... well why would anyone really want to spend 20 minutes in fast travel with a possibility of being jumped, just to move the cart full of hypothetical lead bricks?
When people have their load of hypothetically 8 tons of pristine adamantium... it would make more sense to wait 2 or 3 days for the aranged absolute safety teleporting caravan, rather than let a cart and buggy with a bulseye run loose and risk it to PCs or NPCs.
Now hypothetically people were talking about, add a cost per pound etc... component to teleport. Sounds really great until you actually think about it. Now we are making road hazards etc... target purely the lowbies delivering cheap goods, while granting absolute safety to the vets, delivering the high end, high dollar items of which the cost per pound is well above the threshold of teleport costs.
IMO the best anti-griefing concepts that have higher competitive PVP, the lower you are, the less experienced etc... you are, the less loss and danger you should be experiencing taking a loss before you understand how to deal with risks etc... leads to frustration and/or quitting early, while the higher level players, security and safety leads to boredom.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Dungeonomicon: Wish and the Economy
The Wish Economy in Pathfinder, an Observation
For what it's worth...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hey! It's this thread again!
There are no servers, one single server that slowly increases in hardware as the population cap is increased. If you don't want to PvP you will be limited to a few small areas, if you venture out a little more, you get NPC marshals that will rush to your aid and will kill your attacker if they get there in time, the further you go out, the slower the response. If you leave Lawful territory, you will open to attack with no consequence. You only carry what you are willing to lose, you always have backup gear, and only use your good stuff when you are well protected.
Ryan is not budging on catering to ZERO-PvP players. If you can't handle PvP in any capacity, or even the thread of PvP, PFO will not be the game for you. The one thing PFO has against other open PvP games, is that it will be trying as hard as it can to make a good community, groups and people like those in the Goonsquad in EvE will not be welcome and snuffed out early.
If you take some time to browse half of the blog post discussions there are usually a few 'I don't want to have to PvP' discussions, and the same 10 of us spewing out this same answer.
This is, as I see it, the best form of PVP that MMO's can do. The risk / reward found in EVE Online that comes with venturing out further and further from the secure areas is so much fun. Are you confindent enough in yourself to get out beyond that point where safety is right around the corner? Are you willing to "live" out there? I enjoyed living in Null-Sec space for the better part of when I was playing that game and I would hope for the same feeling of fear and excitement in playing a Pathfinder MMO that encourages the same kind of thing.
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I don't know...
I will probably have to give it a miss.
I love MMO's and I really love Pathfinder and putting the two together is fantastic, a dream for me, been so looking forward to it.. but I can not stand PvP.
You don't need PvP to have 'meaningful' interaction between players, I find it actually causes the opposite.
I do not see why they can not also add a second PvE server, I know it 'may' be a little more work for the devs, but think of the many many more people that will play and support the game because of it.
They are missing out on a lot PvE-only players support because of only having PvP server type.
It is quite disappointing, but so are many things in life I guess.
I'll keep a watch on the game, but I might just move on, this PvP thing has also soured the Table Top RPG for me too, it niggles in the back of my mind while playing it..
8(
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To the OP, EQ had amazing Pvp strangely enough. Community on vallon zek was great, mad lot of friends and good enemies. Helps that for the longest time we had a player enforced honor rules set. My experience in PvE games was that people were allowed to be more douchey, what with there being no threat of repercussion n all.
But yeah if I did play an Mmo lack of world Pvp would be a deal breaker for me
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this PvP thing has also soured the Table Top RPG for me too, it niggles in the back of my mind while playing it..
I know what you mean, the disappointment of no PvE servers along side the normal (PvP) ones has made the Table Top RPG less exciting for me, the knowing that the MMO is not going to support all player types is putting a few of us off the table top game..
Duno why, it shouldn't, but your right, it does 'niggle' at you (for some of us)...
Got to try and keep them separated in the mind..
I think after some time the Table Top will feel good again, I think it is just been wanting a Pathfinder MMO, talking about how great it would be, then the massive disappointment of no PvE only servers, that sadness has dribbled into the TT because it shares the same name..
Once your over the game and see it as a separate different thing, the TT will get its flair back for you.. hope it does for me too :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not sure why people are disturbed by PFO having PVP while the PnP version doesn't.
The tabletop version vastly different from a mmo in the fact that you are the heroes, or what have you. You don't often see other adventuring parties vying for the same goal, do you?
I also don't see why you think the MMO isn't going to support all player types. There's going to be adventurers, gatherers, merchants, craftsmen, and who knows what else. I'm seeing a wide variety of play styles you can go with.
I don't like open PvP either, but If no one is contesting your rule, then are you really playing an MMO? If you aren't into PvP, then you don't have to take the risks outside.
And if your still not ok with this game, that's fine: This game isn't going to make everyone happy.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My understanding is that the game is "player interaction centric", not "pvp centric". There is more to interaction than killing anyone you come across. I'm not a fan of non consensual pvp either as in most games it is meant to be a risk factor and only ends up being a risk for the victims of random attacks and no risk to the attacker. However, if the mechanics are done right, and it sounds like this one has taken that into consideration, the focus is not so much pvp, as it is player controlled interaction. It seems they plan to limit that kind of random killing and make it less profitable than killing for a reason.
Will it work out that way? I don't know. Many systems have idealistically aimed for the same thing and became the same "experienced players killing weaker players for sport for no risk and all reward" as all the others.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yeah if you want to PvE sit in town and make food and weapons while the rest of us get to work, that's sorta the impression I'm getting ;)
The impression should be that wanting a perfectly safe existence will leave you to a very 'basic' experience in the game, and 'adventuring' will probably not be something you do.
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I hate PvP!
It doesn't not matter if they have the very best anti-griefing mechanics ever, I don't want to have PvP force upon me in a game that I 'pay' for.
If Goblinworks would also run a PvE only server along side the PvP server, I would throw my support at it %110..
But like others, this 'all mighty PvP' thing has really put me off Pathfinder all together.
So for now we have packed up all my Pathfinder RPG books, put them in a box in the attic and there they will sit until the hubby wants to have another yard sale..
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I hate PvP!
It doesn't not matter if they have the very best anti-griefing mechanics ever, I don't want to have PvP force upon me in a game that I 'pay' for.
If Goblinworks would also run a PvE only server along side the PvP server, I would throw my support at it %110..
But like others, this 'all mighty PvP' thing has really put me off Pathfinder all together.
So for now we have packed up all my Pathfinder RPG books, put them in a box in the attic and there they will sit until the hubby wants to have another yard sale..
Can I have your stuff?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I hate PvP!
It doesn't not matter if they have the very best anti-griefing mechanics ever, I don't want to have PvP force upon me in a game that I 'pay' for.
If Goblinworks would also run a PvE only server along side the PvP server, I would throw my support at it %110..
But like others, this 'all mighty PvP' thing has really put me off Pathfinder all together.
So for now we have packed up all my Pathfinder RPG books, put them in a box in the attic and there they will sit until the hubby wants to have another yard sale..
No one is forcing you to play (or pay for) this game. If you don't like how the game is, you don't have to play it.
Although why you stopped playing the Tabletop because of PFO is beyond me. Having a group of 6 people being the heroes is vastly different from having several thousand do various goals. Pathfinder Online doesn't sound like you are going to be the super awesome heroes you are in the tabletop RPG, but rather every day adventurers, merchants, or whatever in a fantasy world.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Just a (hopefully) friendly reminder: If you're new to all of this, I recommend reading the Goblinworks Blog. I feel that many questions that have been asked are answered in the blog posts.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Couple of things to remember here. Firstly is the fundamental issue griefing or non consensual pvp? It is clear that serious consideration is being given to how to prevent griefing.
Secondly, griefing is not just about pvp - rogue carpenters in UO and people being trapped by tables? Jita being overrun by sheer numbers in EVE? People just jumping where you are fishing in WOW? People tapping nodes and not harvesting them, there is a huge list.
I personally dislike pvp, but I dislike a player base and a developer that is accepting of griefing more. I think that whilst there will be elements that may prove annoying, looking at the community right now I have high hopes for this working with or without pve specific servers.
Griefing is as much a function of the playerbase as the mechanics and right now whilst the mechanics may not be ideal the playerbase looks pretty damn encouraging.
Finally, my personal thought is that as I don't like non consensual pvp then there are approaches that can be taken, safety can be usually found in numbers. Now if I ride out into the wilderness alone then I expect to be set upon by bandits. However, I would be really surprised if I were to run into many unwanted fights riding out as a company. Pretty excited at the thought of it to be honest.
Something tells me that despite all the reassurance that the PvP being always on ain't so bad, my experiences in WoW tell otherwise. I never played on PvP servers after dropping by a friend's server to see the situation myself. But let the devs do what they want in regards to PFO, I say. In general, "all-out PvP" experiences have been bad in Runescape as well as in other MMO games that I've played where such a gaming style is available.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The comparisons of pvp to other games is quite frankly ridiculous and irrelevant. In those other games pvp servers are created with the sole intent of pvp competition being the core goal of the game. People join those servers to pvp, and it is expected anyone playing on those servers has given full consent by joining the server.
In PFO, there is only 1 server. You can PVP, but it's not the sole purpose of the game. Griefing (killing with the intent of ruining another players experience) will not be tolerated, there will be plenty of players who band together to prevent this type of behavior, and hopefully GM's will step in on the few players who continue with this behavior. There are games out there will 1 server, open pvp, and yet pvp'ing is not rampant and the player communities are wonderful. Nobody pays attention to them because they are text based - however the play models are the closest thing I've seen to PFO, and they've been around for over 15 years (see Dragon Realms and Gemstone III).
Please stop complaining about PVP. I strongly believe a lot of you who hate it will come around to understanding it in PFO and it will become an afterthought.
EVE Online had PvP at the core. Runescape and WoW did not.
And griefing happened in all three. Complaint =/= Legitimate concern.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Spin the question around: How much scope will there be for LG Kingdoms to produce areas that are 95% of the time safe areas for players to PvE/Adventure and nearby hexes dropping another 20% safety?
Answer: It's in the hands of the players: So isn't that an exciting challenge to create in game for the benefit of players? The caveat is that your avatar will die either by PvE or PvP at some stage in the game and it's a question of being able to manage that risk from both sources, sometimes one more than the other.
I think that's a compelling vision for Pathfinder Online to shape the world: Will it be for good or for ill, as they say? :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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They could have made it PvE and PfO would have turned out like every other game. It would have been fun but eventually, like every other game, you would run out of content and you would just move on to the next game.
Going the route of open PvP is riskier. There will be days when it is not fun. Like when you get ganked and lose some stuff, however, the potential for an interesting, deep, player driven experience is much greater.
In PvE your enjoyment of the game is soley dependent on what the Devs can create. In an Open PvP environment the responsibility of making the game fun rest more on the shoulders of the player base.
A handful of designers working 40 hours a week can't compete with thousands of players working 24/7.
GWs job is to give us the tools. Our job is to make the game what it is.
I didn't come around to this easy. I felt the same way most of you did about PvP.
As a counterpoint to 'PvP is bad', in Eve Online null-sec (that is the area that is player-controlled) is generally considered safer than 'lo-sec' (the NPC-controlled area where there is limited involvement from the authorities) as long as you're not on bad terms with those who own the space.
A similar model will inevitably happen in PFO. The hexes owned by a lawful good organisation will be relatively safe as they allow people to go about their business while looking out for criminal or villainous elements.
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Goblin Squad Member
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EVE Online had PvP at the core. Runescape and WoW did not.
And griefing happened in all three. Complaint =/= Legitimate concern.
Griefing happened in all 3 yes, but to different extents, I can speak for WoW especially, repeated corpse camping, regular hunting down of super high players targetting super low players etc...
Eve on the other hand, yes there was griefing, but in general the mindless pychopathy was considerably different, most was profit motive, and 90% were in the higher danger areas where people pretty much agree to enter the competition by entering the area.
Also this statement is missing one key thing
Games without PVP are also not free of griefing. Mob training, kill stealing, ninja looting etc... Griefing isn't a fact of PVP, it is a fact of multiplayer games
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Goblinworks Lead Game Designer
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Hey guys,
I would suggest checking out the post I just made on the PvP thread to see some of the mechanics we're working on to curb griefing. As I said in that thread, our goal is to allow players the ability to murder each other if they want to, but provide enough mechanical reasons not to that players will only do so when driven by something more than spite or greed.
That said, it will be a single server game for the forseeable future. The game is being designed from the ground up to involve if not combat between players, at least conflict between players that would not function well in a PvE environment. The economy would go crazy for one thing.
Also the process of creating a PvE server would be a massively expensive undertaking as it would require effectively doubling our hardware and customer service needs while likely not doubling our player base. Plus generating PvE focused content is arguably the most expensive part of MMO development; this is why games like Star Wars and Elder Scrolls Online have such big teams and budgets. While we will have PvE content, it will not be the main attraction.
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Goblin Squad Member
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To be honest, I am personally not fond of PVP. I am probably older than the target audience, and probably will get owned by the kids.:) Nut I do love the world of Pathfinder and am going to play the heck outta this game. There are already several guilds who will be looking to hunt PKers. I don't mind getting killed, its part of the game. Avoiding jerks who kill you repeatedly for no reason could be a challenge. But Lee's post gave me more confidence about consequences for rabid type players. For me the Risk of getting ganked is worth the reward to play in a rich world with interesting players.
(A little about me, my first online exp was playing muds back in 94'. Anyone else ever have paranoid dreams where you are typing "Where pk".
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Goblin Squad Member
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The game should make monks and sorcerors pretty popular, as you're less gear-dependent, and you can still function after being looted clean a few times...
I am 90% sure that they aren't going to let that one happen. Odds are they will ensure that monks and sorcerers without gear, will be no stronger than a fighter with just his basic weapon, and armor slot filled (the weapon and armor slot cannot be dropped on death, note this does not include helmets, boots, rings, gloves, wonderous items etc... only the main armor, and main weapon)
I actually think that the way the Devs are going about PvP is a great way to solve the issue. The problems with current game PvP is that there are no consequences to being a jerk in the game. You find a lowby fishing in wow and and camp him until he doesn't come back. Does the player loose anything for this? Nope.
With the system Lee is describing you have all kinds of game mechanics that are tied to your actions. We will have an actual alignment that changes and a reputation. Your reputation will apparently effect how we interact with NPCs. There will also be a peer component as your friends don't want you dragging down their company into a different alignment. In addition we have the promotion of PvP against players that abuse PvP (criminals).
The one thing I would like to see is the addition of a bounty system. A bounty system would promote a player based system of morals. You would now have players that invest their time in hunting down criminals because it is also profitable. This bounty could either be levied by:
- The town that the griefed player is a member of. Bounty amount could be determined be time without being caught/killed and the economic status of the town (larger towns give larger bonuses).
- The griefed player themselves. Players killed by criminals could post a bounty themselves. This would come from personal money and upon the criminals death be transferred to the player that killed the criminal.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Anyone else ever have paranoid dreams where you are typing "Where pk".
Not quite... But the most vivid dream I ever had was about being hunted by PKs in ArcticMUD (an Open PvP MUD). I think there was something about having to imagine the way the world looked that made it that much more vivid in my mind.
And unless you're too old to figure out how to use computers (which is obviously not the case), I doubt your "too old" for anything. I'm over 40 myself, and my Dad has been playing these games with me since EQ.
I play Age of Conan, which is a graphically superior game with a dedicated PvE server. I started playing it on a PvP server, got to the open world areas and kept running into people who enjoyed randomly killing my 25th-ish level Ranger as I was soloing. So, I started over on the PvE.
I am a Pathfinder fan and a PbPer. I've spent many hundreds of dollars on Paizo and third party products. But I won't be playing Pathfinder Online with its PvP framework. Not even remotely interested in it.