Giant Frogs and their Tongues

[zean]

I was reading the Giant Frog's entry:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/frog/frog-giant

I noticed its "Grab" ability with its tongue.

I looked up "Grab" here:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules #TOC-Grab-Ex-

And it seems to be if you attempt to use the body part to grapple an opponent from more than 5 feet away... you take a -20 penalty to the CMB check?

So basically, this frog can never use its tongue to attempt to grapple things that are far away?

Doesn't that sort of ruin the point of the tongue and ability in the first place?

Unless I'm misunderstanding something...

[Some call me Tim]

The -20 penalty is if the frog doesn't want to gain the grappled condition itself. It can still do it without a penalty but the frog (and the opponent) are both considered grappled.

[zean]

Will the frog provoke if it elects to gain the grappled condition?

Assume the frog attacked its enemy from 15 feet away.

[Mauril]

No. It does not provoke when using the Grab special attack because Grab says so.

[zean]

Hmm... okay. So I'm confused. Can the frog actually elect to take the former option of also gaining the grappled condition, if it attacks from 15 feet away? Or does it have to be adjacent to the enemy?

[Some call me Tim]

zean wrote:

Will the frog provoke if it elects to gain the grappled condition?

No. You do not provoke if you have the Grab ability.

zean wrote:

Assume the frog attacked its enemy from 15 feet away.

It doesn't matter how far away he is or whether he elects to use just the tongue or grapple normally, the opponent is moved adjacent to the frog (if no space is available the grapple fails).

[Jim Groves]

I just looked over the stat block and the grab ability in Paizo's PRD.

PRD" wrote:

Grab (Ex) If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Unless otherwise noted, grab can only be used against targets of a size equal to or smaller than the creature with this ability. If the creature can use grab on creatures of other sizes, it is noted in the creature's Special Attacks line. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text).

Creatures with the grab special attack receive a +4 bonus on combat maneuver checks made to start and maintain a grapple.

Emphasis mine. You see, the –20 penalty really doesn't have anything to do with the distance from the frog. It has to do with whether the frog has the grappled condition along with its victim.

I think you're overlooking that the giant frog has a special ability that allows it to grab with a body part with reach, and still not be grappled themselves.

PRD wrote:

SPECIAL ABILITIES

Tongue (Ex) A giant frog's tongue is a primary attack with reach equal to three times the frog's normal reach (15 feet for a Medium giant frog). A giant frog's tongue deals no damage on a hit, but can be used to grab. A giant frog does not gain the grappled condition while using its tongue in this manner.

Special abilities override Universal Monster Rules. Otherwise the stat block would just reference the Universal Monster Rules and say nothing more. But the Giant Frog has an extra special ability that calls out different rules than the UMR.

That's why designers get told by their developers, "If it's not different from the UMR, then just use the UMR! But if it is different, then call it out."

Hope this helps!

[Some call me Tim]

So, I get partial credit. It isn't really using Grab(Ex) it's using Tongue(Ex).

It is as Jim said, this little bugger has a special ability that lets him ignore that -20 penalty.

[Defraeter]

Grab is a monster's special ability which allow them to start a grapple with a free action after 1 attack. Grab have special rules different from grapple too.

If you hit with an attack which has grab, you can try a grab (i.e a grapple check) if your ennemy is your size or lesser (except if written differently in monster's text).
If you succeed, the ennemy is grappled and is moved to a space adjacent to you. And you gain the grappled condition too.
You can release a grapple as a free action.

On the second round, you may maintain the grapple or not. Maintain a grapple is a standard action.

The grap ability allow to choose another option: use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. The "hold" can be used when you start a grapple or when you maintain. your ennemy has the condition grappled grappled but not you. But the grapple check has a malus of -20.
The ennemy is hold and is not moved to a space adjacent.

The giant frog has the grab ability with its tongue, but other abilities too.
When it uses its tongue, it has a reach of 15 ft: if the tongue hit (a touch attack), the frog may make a grab, which is in reality a "hold without malus". So the ennemy has the condition grappled but not the frog, and the ennemy is not moved.

NOTE: you cannot attack a tentacle or a tongue or an arm. You must be able to attack the squares of a monster. So the ennemy cannot "cut the tongue".

The tongue has another power: when a attack is successful, the tongue may pull the ennemy (free grapple check). In the case of the frog, it is noted pull(tongue, 5 ft), so you may pull ennemy of 5 ft. You don't need to succeed your grab/hold.
NOTE: the grab/hold and the grab/pull are 2 grapple checks independents.

The third power of the frog is the swallow whole: if the frog succeeds to maintain a grapple check against an adjacent opponent (one size smaller), it may swallows its prey.

Ex: round 1: the giant frog attack a halfling at 15 ft with its tongues. Success! Check grab/hold is success, the ennemy is grappled. Check grab/pull is success, the ennemy is pulled of 5 ft. so 10 ft of frog.

round 2: the halfling didn't succeeded to escape. The tongue succeed its grab/pull and the halfling is pulled at 5 ft, so adjacent to frog. The frog maintain the grapple (with a +5 bonus because halfling didn't succeeded) and succeed the grab/hold: the frog swallow the halfling and do 1d4 bludgeonning damage.
The halfling may escape the grappling or cut his way if he has a hand with a light piercing or slashing weapon.

NOTE: a creature with the grappled condition cannot take equipment on itself, it must use what it has in one of its hand. So if you have a 2-H weapon, you cannot use it or draw a weapon.

[Jim Groves]

Some call me Tim wrote:

So, I get partial credit. It isn't really using Grab(Ex) it's using Tongue(Ex).

It is as Jim said, this little bugger has a special ability that lets him ignore that -20 penalty.

Hey Tim,

You were trying to help someone out, am I right? Then you get full credit. It's not a contest.

:D

Too often, there is needless oneupmanship, and this "need to prove".. and it runs rampant in the rules forum and I don't hold with it.

We try to help people, and we come at it with good will and good intentions.

Full credit, Tim. Full credit.

EDIT: Defraeter, that was not a jab at you, just so you know. I wanted to say that to Tim about an hour ago, but I had to go home and pick up something from the store. But the point stands, everybody, this isn't a competition. We can all be heroes/

[Defraeter]

Jim Groves wrote:

EDIT: Defraeter, that was not a jab at you, just so you know. I wanted to say that to Tim about an hour ago, but I had to go home and pick up something from the store. But the point stands, everybody, this isn't a competition. We can all be heroes/

I don't know why i have written so long :-) and when i posted, i realized that i was very very late!!!!

I was not enough brave to erase my posts which needed to noone...

No competition for me, just i realized it was too late...too late. :-)