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It seems to me that with access to Greater weapon specialization, weapon training and a butt-load of feats, a fighter just might be able to become awesome at slinging guns on a consistent basis without being so dependant on grit to enhance themselves, less MA-deficient and better able to cope in melee if needed. Any thoughts?
If you mean will the Fighter do more damage, possibly.
Otherwise i think the Gunslinger is a better Gunslinger than the Fighter.
Just seems like a less squishy option, rather than going Gun-tank and losing a bunch of good deeds anyway. Heck, a 7th level fighter in Full-plate cartwheeling around the battle field blasting enemies like Clint Eastwood seems like an intriguing combination to me.
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the grit mechanic is a little more important to gunslinging than it initially appears. Mostly I'd way with the ability to avoid or recover from misfires. Gunslingers also have access to thier own version of weapon training letting them add dex to damage of thier shots, which can scale pretty well with level based bonus's and items. Also the ability to extend the range your shooting at touch AC is hard to beat.
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Yeah, I think the utility of the Gunslinger's class features still win out here.
Having said that there's also something to be said for a Gun-based fighter, just like there would be for an Archery fighter. You're basically a mid-range fighter - you're not really a ranged character per se, but you can mix it up at mid range, and slap a bayonet on the end of that gun, and you're still just fine in melee.
Honestly, this Fighter's main drawback is that guns blow up on you sometimes, and so they probably have a couple spares on their person at any given time.
This gets expensive quickly - and that's assuming that our GunFighter is still only enchanting their main weapon.
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I can't be the only one who thinks that's cool, right?
the grit mechanic is a little more important to gunslinging than it initially appears. Mostly I'd way with the ability to avoid or recover from misfires. Gunslingers also have access to thier own version of weapon training letting them add dex to damage of thier shots, which can scale pretty well with level based bonus's and items. Also the ability to extend the range your shooting at touch AC is hard to beat.
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This. Plus if you want to be a musketeer the only way to get a full attack off is through the 3rd level archetype perk. And at 13th level both the pistol and musket archetypes get total misfire immunity. This is the only way to not misfire if you're using cartridges (which you are) and a gun with misfire 2 or higher (anything above pistol).
So you guys pretty much think you'd be better off with gunslinger and maybe invest in feats that let you use a firearm against adjacent enemies(namely deft shootist and or snapshot line) and pretty much use nothing but firearms eventually, as in no melee weapon unless you run completely out of ammo?
So you guys pretty much think you'd be better off with gunslinger and maybe invest in feats that let you use a firearm against adjacent enemies(namely deft shootist and or snapshot line) and pretty much use nothing but firearms eventually, as in no melee weapon unless you run completely out of ammo?
Well I think the first decision is pistol or musket. After that see when your archetype gives you the bonus you want the most and then think about multi classing. Like bhh39 days, level 5 is good switch point. You'll most likely have little wiggle room in your build at level 5 because you're pretty much stuck taking rapid reload, point blank shot, rapid shot, and precise shot (not necessarily that order). At that point you can see how you feel about your character and if you want to go a different direction. Personally, I think a 2 level dip into monk would be fun to consider. On the other hand, at slinger 11 you qualify for Signature Deed which you can use to shoot touch AC within 2 range increments without spending grit. Combine with a distance enchant on your gun and you can stay further away from melee range.
Personally fond of the scaling extra d6's with pistols over the increased range of the musket, just wondered how effective a fighter could be with guns and I still think that other than gunslinger, they are the best option for firearms in the long run. Gunslingers are undoubtedly still the kings of slings as the word "Gun" is part of the class name and for a reason of course.
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Gunslinger is more powerful than a fighter. Perhaps a vanilla gunslinger would be closer to the fighter but anyone with sense would choose an archetype for optimization. Pistolero is especially effective.
Gunslinger's are not feat starved as they get their own bonus feats and precise shot isn't a necessity till later levels.
At level 5 they add their dex to damage, level 11 Signature Deed (Up Close and Deadly, and 13 plus no more misfires. Now they can fire that double pistol all day long with no risk of their weapon exploding.
Gunslingers gain a class bonus to AC and don't require heavy armor since all their money/level stat boosts should be in dex.
Also, melee isn't a problem just 5ft. back and fire away. If your gun explodes pull out your extra that every gunslinger should have and play it safe.
Yeah, I think 18 dex and 16 wis are optimal if possible.
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I'm not sure where this idea is coming from - draw up two example builds of a pure gunslinger and an ideal gunslinger/fighter mix - with some options - and we can talk about what works better.
Grit is available on the same first level dip from Gunslinger that you need to get a gun from, so I'm not sure why anyone is saying go pure gunslinger for grit. Take extra grit as a feat instead.
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Grit is available on the same first level dip from Gunslinger that you need to get a gun from, so I'm not sure why anyone is saying go pure gunslinger for grit. Take extra grit as a feat instead.
People are saying that if you have a fighter/gunslinger, you should go level 5 gunslinger for extra dex to damage. If you feel multi-classing is necessary I would suggest staying with Gunslinger till 13 so you never suffer misfires.
The Cavalier actually makes a decent gunslinger if you take the musketeer and luring cavalier archetypes. He can take fighter only feats with firearms so he can get weapon specialization. With far challenge he gets to add his level to his damage.
I think the Cavalier Gunslinger combo would be interesting. Probably 5 levels of Gunslinger and the rest cavalier.
yeah I agree with the 5 levels gunslinger and the rest whatever.
But now: what about a barbarian gunslinger?
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The Cavalier actually makes a decent gunslinger if you take the musketeer and luring cavalier archetypes. He can take fighter only feats with firearms so he can get weapon specialization. With far challenge he gets to add his level to his damage.
I think the Cavalier Gunslinger combo would be interesting. Probably 5 levels of Gunslinger and the rest cavalier.
Very interesting - I love when you can mix up archetypes like this and get a decent build.
yeah I agree with the 5 levels gunslinger and the rest whatever.
But now: what about a barbarian gunslinger?
Gunslinger 5 / Urban Barbarian X for Dex Raging goodness.
nice !
So you guys pretty much think you'd be better off with gunslinger and maybe invest in feats that let you use a firearm against adjacent enemies(namely deft shootist and or snapshot line) and pretty much use nothing but firearms eventually, as in no melee weapon unless you run completely out of ammo?You've got options. Gunslingers DO have martial weapon proficiency, so I don't see anything wrong with keeping a melee weapon or two as a secondary weapon. In fact until you got to the very modern eras, most did. And certainly nothing wrong with spending a feat or two on that weapon. You have room for variety, there isn't a mandatory cookie-cutter way you need to go.
This.
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A good Gunslinger shouldn't be squishy.
Lets do math!
Lets base this on level 8 with 6 Gunslinger and 2 Alchemist (since this is what I made recently for a friend to dual wield pistols).
I started the player out with a 16 Dex. Add 4 for being Goblin. Add 2 for Belt of Incredible Dexterity. Add another 2 for level ups at 4 and 8. So his Dex is sitting at 24. Naked and with no class (kind of have to be if you are naked...BAZINGA!) his AC is 17. Not bad.
At level 6 of Gunslinger you have +2 Dodge AC because of Nimble.
A smart Gunslinger is probably just wearing +1 Leather Armor (with the Dex getting higher its tough to stay safe).
At this level its not uncommon to have a Ring of Protection +2, an Amulet of Natural Armor +1, and since he has 2 levels in Alchemist a handy Extract of Shield granting a +4 Shield Bonus.
Doing some math here we have a level 8 Pistolero with an AC of 30.
For a ranged class that will dish out MASSIVE amounts of damage (thanks to Clustered Shots) from 20 ft. away its astonishing that he can pull a 30 AC while wearing only Leather Armor. Considering that most wisdom on the forums says your AC should be 20+your level I think the Gunslinger is OK. His flat footed will suck...but even his touch AC (Gunslinger style shoot out fun) will be in the 20s.
Early Firearms: Gunslinger > Fighter
Advanced Firearms: Fighter > Gunslinger
I think an important thing to remember is that the Golarion gunslinger despite the outfits we've seen on the books ISN'T the gunslinger of the Old American West. She dwells in a very different sort of environment, uses weapons that are comparatively primitive, and has to face threats that would make most examples of the former crap in their pants.
That's awesome! Yes, I like to think of the Golarion gunslinger as being like the gunslingers of Stephen Kings dark tower series, sort of like Knights that evolved in to firearm users, and that fought supernatural terrors.
I am definitely seeing ALOT(can't emphasize that enough) of wiggle room after level 5, and both the luring cav/musketeer cav and the alchemist scream coolness. What about sacrificing a feat and 20 skill points to be a tiefling with a prehensile tail for reloading? My feat path is full til 5th then nothing til 11th, so for a tiefling that gets me up to 7th and still a couple feats to play with and lots more after 11th that could be used to multi class.(not sure if that's what I really want to do but options are good).
+1 for referencing Dark Tower!
Based on the Tiefling comment I am guessing you are planning on Dual Wielding.
If so you might see about a Vanara. Stats in the Perfect place and Prehensile Tail. Plus they have Nimble.
I built a Sniper that was a Gunslinger(Musket Master) and I believe Cavalier(Musketeer). It was a while ago. But I do remember he was fun to play. He was a Middle Aged Dwarf (153 years old) who avoided being up close and personal as much as possible.
Yeah, my GM had a thing about making Vanara monks, not a huge fan of them personally but he might like'em. Definitely thinking a race with something like that could save dipping alchemist and consequently a bit of attack bonus(Not that it's super necessary, I mean this is TOUCH ac we're talking).
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I am definitely seeing ALOT(can't emphasize that enough) of wiggle room after level 5, and both the luring cav/musketeer cav and the alchemist scream coolness. What about sacrificing a feat and 20 skill points to be a tiefling with a prehensile tail for reloading? My feat path is full til 5th then nothing til 11th, so for a tiefling that gets me up to 7th and still a couple feats to play with and lots more after 11th that could be used to multi class.(not sure if that's what I really want to do but options are good).
Ugh...no. Unless your GM houserules it you can't use your tail to hold your gun. It specifically says "Swift action to retrieve one item on your character." I know the flavor text of it is fairly misleading, but the Tiefling Prehensile Tail is just meant to be a way to draw items as a Swift action (which the argument of what "on your character" means is still debated as to whether it means in your back pack or just things hanging on your belt or whatever).
One of my NPCs is a Vanaran Ranger(Archery) who was raised in a big city by an Elf Trader who found him after some Humans murdered his family.
He is fun to RP simply because of his personality.
@Ossian: You can have it hold a firearm if I remember correctly while your actual hands reload the other firearm.
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•Prehensile Tail - Many tieflings have tails, but some have long, flexible tails that can be used to carry items. While they cannot wield weapons with their tails, they can use them to retrieve small, stowed objects carried on their persons as a swift action. This racial trait replaces fiendish sorcery.
Emphasis mine. Retrieve, not hold.
So it could possibly reload but there might be a better way that doesn't require a swift...unless quickdraw would count, or even rapid reload?
ok seems what I am referring to was a mistake that was fixed.
Though the Grasping Tail feat would work.
And heck one could argue that a version of Grasping Tail should exist for every Prehensile tail race...
Rapid Reload is allowed on Firearms. The tail can't be used as a third limb to reload a firearm.
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ok seems what I am referring to was a mistake that was fixed.
Though the Grasping Tail feat would work.
And heck one could argue that a version of Grasping Tail should exist for every Prehensile tail race...
Rapid Reload is allowed on Firearms. The tail can't be used as a third limb to reload a firearm.
Absolutely. If you want to burn a feat there is one that exists, but just the alternate trait is not enough.
You can just CHEESE the weapon cord method, otherwise the Alchemist discovery for Vestigial Arm or Tentacle is the way to go.
Yeah, I think the utility of the Gunslinger's class features still win out here.
Having said that there's also something to be said for a Gun-based fighter, just like there would be for an Archery fighter. You're basically a mid-range fighter - you're not really a ranged character per se, but you can mix it up at mid range, and slap a bayonet on the end of that gun, and you're still just fine in melee.
Honestly, this Fighter's main drawback is that guns blow up on you sometimes, and so they probably have a couple spares on their person at any given time.
This gets expensive quickly - and that's assuming that our GunFighter is still only enchanting their main weapon.
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I can't be the only one who thinks that's cool, right?
I think Clint Eastwood is on his way to your house right now to show you how "cool" that sounds. Clint doesn't do cartwheels, he swaggers. Clint doesn't wear full plate, he wears 501 Blues, a big buckle, and a 10 gallon hat. You make his day, not the other way around!
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Well these days a stiff breeze would take him down so unless we talkin' Eastwood circa 1990 or earlier I'm really not to worried ;)
Well these days a stiff breeze would take him down so unless we talkin' Eastwood circa 1990 or earlier I'm really not to worried ;)
I'm pretty sure Killstring didn't think about current era Eastwood wearing fullplate and doing cartwheels!
Hmm, Is Dual Wielding even worth it?
Well these days a stiff breeze would take him down so unless we talkin' Eastwood circa 1990 or earlier I'm really not to worried ;)I'm pretty sure Killstring didn't think about current era Eastwood wearing fullplate and doing cartwheels!
It's true, I wasn't.
...but now I am. Still awesome. Still just as likely to ever occur (is there a percentage less than zero?)
•Prehensile Tail - Many tieflings have tails, but some have long, flexible tails that can be used to carry items. While they cannot wield weapons with their tails, they can use them to retrieve small, stowed objects carried on their persons as a swift action. This racial trait replaces fiendish sorcery.Emphasis mine. Retrieve, not hold.
To fire a flintlock pistol you have to:
1) move the flint to the half cocked position
2) retrieve a paper cartridge from your ammo pouch
3) tear open the cartridge (normal humans use their free hand and their teeth)
4) fill the priming pan with part of the powder from the cartridge
5) stuff the rest of the cartridge, powder, and bullet down the gun barrel
6) jam it the rest of the way with a tamping rod
7) move the flint to the full cocked position
8) aim and fire
I think prehensile tail would take care of step 3 but not really help out with much else. To dual wield pistols you really need extra arms.
The slate spider will give you no misfire for 1min each day. All for the low price of 10000 gp.This. Plus if you want to be a musketeer the only way to get a full attack off is through the 3rd level archetype perk. And at 13th level both the pistol and musket archetypes get total misfire immunity. This is the only way to not misfire if you're using cartridges (which you are) and a gun with misfire 2 or higher (anything above pistol).the grit mechanic is a little more important to gunslinging than it initially appears. Mostly I'd way with the ability to avoid or recover from misfires. Gunslingers also have access to thier own version of weapon training letting them add dex to damage of thier shots, which can scale pretty well with level based bonus's and items. Also the ability to extend the range your shooting at touch AC is hard to beat.
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Yeah, but I always end up using it to smooth my hair and pick lint from my clothes. Gunslingers are all about style, you know?
Well these days a stiff breeze would take him down so unless we talkin' Eastwood circa 1990 or earlier I'm really not to worried ;)
I like to remember Clint before the RNC episode.
I think an important thing to remember is that the Golarion gunslinger despite the outfits we've seen on the books ISN'T the gunslinger of the Old American West. She dwells in a very different sort of environment, uses weapons that are comparatively primitive, and has to face threats that would make most examples of the former crap in their pants.
The most common threat being killing yourself with your own weapon, or having your weapon break down mid adventure and becoming useless because a backup weapon costs more than most minor magic items.
@Horbagh: I use it for the same purpose.
@Nu'Raahl: That is possibly the oddest combo I could imagine...
@Ashiel: This is one of the problems with Firearms...
Kaisc006 that makes sense.
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Hmm, Is Dual Wielding even worth it?Pre 13th level no. The penalties to attack, chance for misfires, and feat tax are too high. After 13th, so long as you can withstand the cheese or glare in the GM's eye, it's adding more to the powerhouse...
Eh at level 8 the PC in my game fires 8 bullets per turn at touch AC. Tell him dual wielding isn't worth it. Considering he does roughly 12 per bullet that means he takes most enemies he is fighting down to over half health in a single turn.
Does he misfire? Yep on occasion and some nights are worse than others, but its not as bad.