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Correct me if I'm wrong, but are we looking to establish iconics for the GM side of the table?
If so, then we did a pretty banged up job.
According to season 4, most of the baddies are... a little bit of everything! I like that as a GM. Make me look up a new stat block with new rules. Do not give me the same monster that appeared two seasons ago.
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I would love to see more Drow, Orcs, Giants, Dragons, and Dinosaurs! Goblins and Swarms have been way over used, and to a certain extent so have Humanoid foes.
There is a whole nation of Orcs, one would think there is something there worth grabbing for the Society.
I would love to see a Dino hunt in the Mwangi.
I would like to see a Dragon as the main, intelligent villain.
An underground adventure against Drow and Drugar perhaps?
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I spent some time GMing some of season 4's scenarios this weekend for a lot of new-to-PFS players and found myself describing the theme(s) of this season to set the tone for their adventures in Varisia. I spent a fair bit of time describing the common "problems" PFS agents encounter. It all got me thinking about where we've been and what's next. On that note, I wanted to open a discussion about typical Golarion bad guys and how they've fit with PFS organized play. Bare with me, but ultimately, I'm looking for feedback on the types of enemies you most enjoy.
1) Dragons - There are approximately 4 scenarios that feature dragons to date (if you include RftRK Pt 2). These are perhaps the most iconic of enemies, but also one of the most rare. Should dragons be more frequent? Less frequent? Perhaps a large arc dealing with them (either directly or indirectly).
2) Goblins - These little boogers have been everywhere. How's the mix been? Who wants MOAR goblin madness? Anyone actually sick of these guys?
3) Orcs - Can their only place in PFS really be Echoes of the Everwar Part 1? Where else have these guys been? For such a classic monster, they should don't show up much (unless they're cross-bred).
4) Drow - I think these iconic foes have only been featured in a single scenario thus far. I think they suffer from a mainstream burn-out (Drizz't et al.) I know a lot of people love them and a lot of people love to hate them with equal passion. Thoughts?
5) Dinosaurs - They've made an appearance a few times, but never in any force. What say you, should we have more focus on our prehistoric cave-woman stealing enemies?
6) Undead - It seems like one out of every four scenarios includes something that's undead. That's why favored enemy: undead is probably one of the top 3 favored enemy choices (human, evil outsiders). Anyone getting tired of chopping up dead things? Anyone want more dead things? Perhaps there should be more to coincide with the ever growing zombie...
Well this has been an interesting read so far
Here are my Opinions on the various foes in PFS
1) Dragons - Should dragons be more frequent? Less frequent? Perhaps a large arc dealing with them (either directly or indirectly).
I think dragons should be rare…they have only appeared in 5 scenarios….I think that is about right. It might be interesting to do a series of three scenarios which are “spiritual sequels” of each other.
1) at lower level (3-4) the PCs have to get out of a town, intact perhaps with an artifact or a contact while an angry dragon is burning down said town. 2) Mid level (7-8) the PCs foil the plot of said dragon, say they are able to retrieve an magic item, before the dragon’s agents are. And 3) high level (10-11) the PCs have to actually confront and deal with the dragon they have met at earlier levels.
2) Goblins - How's the mix been? Who wants MOAR goblin madness? Anyone actually sick of these guys?
I have seen Goblins in 4 PFS society scenarios. I think the mix is just about right. They are a fun diversion.
I think it would be fun to do a sequel of We Be Goblins, where they have to invade sand point, burn the houses throw rocks at dogs, take on adventurers etc….
However I would hate to see goblins become wide spread PC race. No thank you. I remember a friend playing Kender….some one needed their Aderol. ….goblins would be worse…..much much worse.
3) Orcs – I could take them or leave them. I actually don’t mind them not showing up. Please let them stay monsters….as much as I enjoy playing wow, I don’t want them to become “humanized”.
Someone mentioned some sort of “klingon” like flavor…..that might be interesting.
4) Drow -
I happen to like Drow as villains and monsters, not miss-understood heroes. I think Kyle bird is right about the main stream burnout. I would like to see them in a couple more scenarios but not lots and lots of them.
5) Dinosaurs - I would like to see them in a few adventures set in the Mwangi expanse….Just in the Mwangin expanse.
6) Undead . Anyone getting tired of chopping up dead things? Anyone want more dead things? Perhaps there should be more to coincide with the ever growing zombie popularity in mainstream society?
The most common class that I play is a cleric, so I say Yes please to Undead.
7) Swarms – I don’t mind seeing them every so often. But I don’t like seeing them all over the place. If they show up a bit less, that would be nice.
8) Outsiders what say you about dealing with an Outsider-based threat? It would be nice to stop an extra planar invasion every now and again.
Well I think it would be neat dealing with more outsiders.
9) Humanoid NPCs - These guys give the biggest variety of foes and often the smartest foes with the most complicated plots. However, sometimes you just want to bash the face in on some freakish monster, you know? Tired of humanoids? Sick of humanoid organizations (Aspis for example)?
Well I am tired of Deros. I groan when we come across Derro.
just my two cents
Regional Venture-Coordinator, Massachusetts—North Shore
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So I am not sure how helpful I am going to be in this, I have run almost 30 Scenarios and played only a handful of them.
1) Dragons - Less frequent but I am working on this with the idea of most of my players still being under 4th level. Indirectly dealing with them having them as a Overlord might be nice.
2) Goblins - I love the Goblins and they seem to fit in with the Current season. I didn't seem to run into that many when running the other seasons.
3) Orcs - I think Orc adversaries would be great.
4) Drow - I don't really love Drow and don't really want to see them in PFS at all.
5) Dinosaurs - I think in the right setting Dinosaurs would be great.
6) Undead - They are being overdone to the point one of my players made up a Cleric just to deal with them.
7) Swarms - Not a fan, I hate swarms, and after running Skulls & Shackles book 1 I hate them even more.
8) Outsiders - I think they should be like Dragons there should be coordinator of lesser Outsiders, Cults, False gods or crimelords. They should be special.
9) Humanoid NPCs - used right the Humanoid NPCs could be great, the Shadow Lodge was used right. The Apis seems to be just there hanging around popping up when there is no idea of what to throw in a scenario.
That is what I have right now, not sure if this helps.
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MONSTERS, HOOO!
1) Dragons - You should start having to worry about these in the 7-11 tier. They should be scheming, manipulative, informed power brokers who see the lesser races as pawns that they can direct with a bit of gold or subterfuge. They should always have the environment on their side. The party should also get a choice on whether they want to do the foolish thing and fight one. If you make that choice, then it's your own fault if it results in a TPK or multiple party death scenario, but if you're at this tier with the prestige to be restored, it's a delicious choice to be able to make. They should be portrayed as masters of mundane society. They don't EAT the peasants, they OWN the peasants.
2) Goblins - Love 'em. Give them fire, bombs, dog-choppers, cute traits and let them loose. Stick them on goblin dogs. Give them suicide bombers. There's so much inventive material here to play with.
3) Orcs - Very, very overdone in fantasy in general. And also not very unique to Golarion. If we use them, we need to differentiate them. I don't see Belkzen as very original at all. I'd like to see some fear and reputation amongst Orcish clans. Big armoured hulk orcs with greataxes. Phalanx orcs with bloodied spears and wearing helmets made out of human scalps! Beastmaster orcs with 20 bitey goblin followers on chains! Scary ass two metre tall greenskins who won't tell you about their clan history as they are too busy cutting your arm off! GRAAAAORRRRGH!
4) Drow - Very faerun. I know they have a niche in Golarion but when I think Drow, I can't help but think of Faerun.
5) Dinosaurs - YES YES YES YES YES. With bamboo saddles and riders and blowguns and spells cast on them! Clever girls! War Tyrannosaurus with Grippli Shaman casting bull's strength, shield and haste on it! Low level Pathfinders hiding in a coach as a T-Rex smashes the poop out of Society transportation! Run while it's eating the horses! Then the Pathfinders find a field with long grass and velociraptors. Yes!
6) Undead - Overdone when they are used without back-story, as expected for a group of professional tomb raiders. I like them when they have a backstroy and you know who the undead used to be. It's just so easy to stick these guys in a food free tomb. They are in every single session.
7) Swarms - Annoying. Few chances to differentiate. Okay when they fall into pits after the adventurers. Don't open your mouth!
8) Outsiders - Yes! More summoners and outsiders in general! I want Devils taking over Chelish noble families! I want Samsaran Deva and Aasimar suicide cults. I want villagers faces exploding because there's a cult to the Dark Tapestry in town. I want dungeon traps to spew terrors from Beyond the Veil instead of 1d4 skeletons with longswords.
9) Humanoid NPCs - A staple. Use with imagination.
What I'd like to see more of:
-Hobgoblin samurai.
-Monsters trained by intelligent races for use in battle.
-Grippli with class levels.
-Faeries creating havoc.
-Dire bat air cavalry.
-Cyclops masterminds/oracles/information brokers.
-Any relationship between humanoids and monsters in a realistic, social manner. More often than not one must die for the other to live. That's not realistic.
TL;DR - My avvie is a fiendish Tyrannosaurus, so go figure.
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8) Outsiders - Yes! More summoners and outsiders in general! I want Devils taking over Chelish noble families! I want Samsaran Deva and Aasimar suicide cults. I want villagers faces exploding because there's a cult to the Dark Tapestry in town. I want dungeon traps to spew terrors from Beyond the Veil instead of 1d4 skeletons with longswords.
9) Humanoid NPCs - A staple. Use with imagination.
what he said- dark tapestry clerics, summoners, teleporting wizards, shaman druids. Let PC's face there cloned npc.
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There is so much here but I will add to the conversation.
Aberration Where are these guys? Is their even a scenrio with an Aboleth? I mean talk about a sick encounter, just but him in the middle of a pond and he will tear the adventures up.
Undead Liches? Vampires? Wraith? Shadows? Where are they? Mummies are great too, but these guys need their fair share too.
Giants Seriously? Where are all the ogres/trolls? I have played over 25, and have run into 2 giants the entire time.
Outsiders These are great, the only problem is a 4th level spell ends the encounter...
lycanthropes More of theses...More full moons...
Character classes in a 5 to 9 scenerio, 5 level 6 Anti-Paladin Goblins riding goblin dogs, all mounted feats, yeah players will scream bloody murder...
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1) Dragons - I haven't been a big fan of the dragons I have seen. I think they would work well if given a lot more backstory/roleplaying suggestions/more complex strategy. Dragons are one of those monsters that is really only has challenging/interesting as the GM running it.
2) Goblins - More Goblins! I can't get enough of these iconic monsters and players at my tables love goblin-centric scenarios. I have also recently found that iconic monsters are great to have in PFS scenarios because I can port them into home games. More iconic monsters including goblins.
3) Orcs - See Goblins above. I would like to see orcs since I can't really get player opinion on them since they are only in 2 scenarios that I know of. Plus, it would be nice to have some samples of orc encounters that can be ported into home games.
4) Drow - If Drow are represented I would like to see PFS as a way to represent them as true iconic Golarion Drow. Let's see drow in a golarion light the way we see Goblins in a Golarion light. I want my players to see "Drizzt who?, Lolth who?". Flesh grafters, demon worship, slavery, etc. EVIL EVIL EVIL Drow.
5) Dinosaurs - meh. I have no opinion of dinosaurs but probably just because I have seen them much. If I saw them represented well I might be interested in them. Maybe a druid with a dinosaur companion? or a bunch of critters riding them? A mwangi adventure with intelligent evil apes riding dinosaurs perhaps?
6) Undead - Being that it is a classic foe, they are needed. I don't have anything else to say other than that.
7) Swarms - meh, less swarms unless they can be used in a more novel way. For the players who haven't seen them, they can just play the scenarios that have them.
8) Outsiders - Celestials! I can totally think of a bunch of reasons why Celestials would try to stomp out the society. It is not a "good" organization and a celestial threat would be wonderful especially for good PCs. How do you deal with the hound arcon that has decided you are irredeemable especially if it works for your patron?
9) Humanoid NPCs - There is so much variation that can be done but I would like to see leaders picked from the more iconic foes. An ogre warlord, an orc adept, a hobgoblin knight; all of these and more could raise groups to cause problems for the society.
I would like to see Oozes and aberrations more. They seem to cause a lot of confusion for parties and it would be nice to see them used more.
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I love the idea that a group of Celestials or Inevitables come to the judgement that the Pathfinder Society has gathered too much artefacts of magical power that any mortal agency should be allowed to wield.
Can you imagine your Pathfinder looking out the window of the Grand Lodge to see the heavens splitting open and a celestial host soaring down on feathered wings to "restore the balance?" That holy sword doesn't seem like a very good investment any more, does it? And good luck using a tricked out diplomat character on an Inevitable!
So many great ideas that make the skeleton filled tomb look positively sleepy in comparison :)
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.....4) Drow - If Drow are represented I would like to see PFS as a way to represent them as true iconic Golarion Drow. Let's see drow in a golarion light the way we see Goblins in a Golarion light. I want my players to see "Drizzt who?, Lolth who?". Flesh grafters, demon worship, slavery, etc. EVIL EVIL EVIL Drow.
Completely agree. It would be cool to have a story arc dealing with the "underdark." Since drow were part of the original OGL it is one of those classic RPG icons that we can still enjoy. I say more true underground scenarios in general would be fun. Maybe something along the lines of the PFS exploring and mapping a new section of the underground that was just unearthed.
...8) Outsiders - Celestials! I can totally think of a bunch of reasons why Celestials would try to stomp out the society. It is not a "good" organization and a celestial threat would be wonderful especially for good PCs. How do you deal with the hound arcon that has decided you are irredeemable especially if it works for your patron?...
Let the role-playing conundrums and player-rage commence. All the paladins yelling "what do you mean hes not evil?" and casters asking "What's protection from good?."
Some writer must implement this NOW! This has role-playing and social avoidance of combat written all over it. There are not enough of these out there (Almost any combat can be avoided with player initiative and creativity but very few have this mechanic written into the scenario).|
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(Anyone else keep reading the title of this thread as "Enemies of the State"?)
A note on dragons.
How about a dragon VC? think about it. PFS is always gathering achient treasures and locking them away somewhere in a vault, so that they can be "studied". WOW... maybe one (or more) of the 10 is a Dragon.
We know who the next agent that will dissappear will be. We have foreseen it.
Agents who think they know more than they should are brought In for......questioning.....
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While I would like to see more dragons in PFS, I think that they cause a lot of table variation. Quite often GMs don't know what to do with a high level dragon that has so many attacks, a breath weapon, and spells. So it becomes anti-climatic when the party swarms it and kills it before it can do much. If we do have more dragons in the mix I would like it to be in the 7-11 Tier and for the writers to spend some serious time on the tactics. A good tactics section could really let GMs show what a dragon can do.
I agree with others that Dragons need a good environment. Different dragons are adapted to different environments and one of the things that makes them difficult is tactics that utilize that environment. Lets fight a Black Dragon Underwater or a Red dragon who attacks from flight with a breath weapon for a while and then once the pcs figure out how to attack a flying creature effectively unloads a pyrotecnics and melees all the blind PCs. There should of course be plenty of good hints as to what we are up against so that players can prepare appropriately.
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On the celestial front I don't see PFS and a celestial faction getting into direct conflict (No rift in the sky raid on headquarters). I can however envision both PFS and a celestial group competing for the same artifact or goal. They are not in direct conflict but a writer could definitely sneak in an act or two where player choice (Which is more important to the player, their alignment or PFS goals?) drove combat between players and a celestial faction.
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We know who the next agent that will dissappear will be. We have foreseen it.
Agents who think they know more than they should are brought In for......questioning.....
And this is why we must continue to investigate the Decemvirate, and know as much about them as possible.
Meow!
*rolls eyes* *yawns* Yes, investigate the next tomb your Venture-Captain sends you to. Ensure your report arrives in a timely manner. *yawn*
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I think I approach this topic from a very different perspective than many posters here, in terms of the foes I prefer to see in PFS and those I look forward to seeing in the future.
- The Map is More important than the Monster: I have amassed an extremely large collection of flip-mats and Map Packs for use with PFS, and I don't think they are being used as often as they should be. I want to see more use of flip-mats form years gone by, more use of map packs and a more interesting use of difficult and extra terrain on all of them. I want my scenarios to draw the eye and be a spectacle not just for my players but for every player in the store who is not YET one of my players. Interesting maps , interesting use of terrain and other environmental factors is more important to me than the monster type I am fighting.
- The Miniatures Matter: One of my favorite things about the Dawn of the Scarlet Sun is that the minis were available for use by all GMs and I saw them being purchased and used by virtually all my local GMs. While we can quibble over whether a particular mini is a "good" mini or not, the use of distinct and appropriate minis for an encounter -- along with a nice colorful map for it as well -- draws the attention of the player and creates excitement at the table. We have nearly a decade of D&D minis behind us, several set of Pathfinder minis and more to come in the future. Whatever encounter is chosen, I want to see more attention paid to the minis we should use to represent the creatures in that combat.
- The Monster Impacts Upon Combat Length: There seems to be a large number in favor of more dragon encounters. I think these types of monsters are great, awesome, iconic... and rarely appropriate for use in a PFS session. We rarely have time for them. I am in favor of more interesting monster encounters with perhaps lesser dragon types with less abilities, but encounters with true dragons are difficult to fit within the encounter format of PFS.
- Where the Hell did the Orcs Go? While I agree that Goblins are wonderful creatures and very evocative of the vibe we are trying to sell with Pathfinder, I think we've undersold the Orcs and not just by a little. Given the impending release of Peter Jackson's The Hobbit, Part 1, I expect a good helping of Orcs (and dwarves) would be a VERY timely arrival for Season 5.
With perhaps a slight bias in Season 3 to Eastern flavored monster types (and that's *quite* a catch all) there has not been a thematic approach to what monsters we are fighting at the table. The themes in terms of season design breaks down, more or less, as follows:
- Season Zero: No theme at all. "We're just Happy to be Here"
- Season One: Still no theme at all. Still "Just Happy to be Here", but we'll try and feature more Goblins where we can. And did we mention undead?
- Season Two: The theme is the Shadow Lodge and the Pathfinder Society. This theme has no discernible impact upon encounter selection in terms of monster types whatsoever. Still lots of undead.
- Season Three: The Theme is Eastern flavored Tian Xia. The geographical impact upon monsters is present, but entirely inconsistent.
- Season Four: Runelords. Impact upon encounter selection, so far, has been minimal. Undead, old tombs and a "return to the dungeon" is supposed to be a theme -- but the Goblins are still there.
- Season Five??: Looking forward, I don't really care WHAT the monster types to be encountered are so much as that they have a racial theme to them. ANY consistent theme is better than no theme at all. Drow, Orc,*whatever*. What I want to see more than anything else is a discernible foe, with a consistent and emerging theme, dependent upon their race and type, and less dependent upon the region highlighted by that year's Gencon Adventure Path release.
In short, what I want to see is a coherent STORY emerge out of a Season of PFS, not a series of theme park rides set in a region. The story should engage the player, the use of interesting environmental challenges should entertain them and make them think, while the maps and minis should be eye candy which creates and sells visual excitement to both players and non-players alike.
Lastly: Can we PLEASE stop sending the GM to some other stat block published in another book in a PFS scenario? We have PDFs for these scenarios and there is no print product or page length concern engaged. At all. Ever. EVER. Yes, I have the books in hardcover, yes, I have the books in PDF (all VC's do) but the stat blocks are available online anyways. Can we just STOP with this file/book chase? Especially if we are going to use more monsters from Bestiary 2 and Bestiary 3 in the future?
My pattern is to run the scenario straight from my iPad and from what I can see, that a habit a LOT of PFS GMs are following. The more I need to open another document in another tab and navigate to it, the more my game slows down. Please put the stat block in the scenario and don't make me go look somewhere else for it.
This design "feature" slows down my game and there does not appear to be a valid commercial goal behind this decision at all. Convince me that there is a valid commercial interest being served here and I'll shut up. To date, that argument has not been made and the design feature is adversely impacting the quality of my game. I can't be the only GM out there that this is affecting.
Regards,
.Steel_Wind
I can find any monster interesting if it makes sense for why it is there. Essentially I have an issue with Gotcha Monsters. [etc.]
You said everything I wanted to say, and then some.
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Lastly: Can we PLEASE stop sending the GM to some other stat block published in another book in a PFS scenario? We have PDFs for these scenarios and there is no print product or page length concern engaged. At all. Ever. EVER. Yes, I have the books in hardcover, yes, I have the books in PDF (all VC's do) but the stat blocks are available online anyways. Can we just STOP with this file/book chase? Especially if we are going to use more monsters from Bestiary 2 and Bestiary 3 in the future?
From the feedback I have seen from the writers (Groves being an excellent example) scenarios do indeed have a word limit that impacts cost. Writers are usually paid by length of their work, editors have more to edit, layout artists have more to work on per scenario, etc. All of this impacts the length of time between conception and final product and thus effects the bottom line of how much a scenario costs.
If you want more stat blocks from core assumption books then you have to loose something else.....mainly other story content. I choose story and better more developed scenarios over not needing to pull out a bestiary.
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People are saying that scenarios run long now. And Paizo needs to keep word count to a certain length.
Seems to me, if they added stat blocks back in, they'd have to cut some of the other text, which might lead to scenarios that run within time rather than over.
In a word -- nonsense.
If the issue is "we don't want to pay an author for copy pasting in an existing statblock" -- then deal with it on that level. Don't pay for a copy+paste stat block -- and then copy+paste it in at a dev level. There is no word length in a wholly electronic product except for one that is arbitrarily imposed without a valid commercial purpose.
This approach will serve the purpose of training authors that seems to be behind the rule, without inconveniencing GMs.
I put it to you that these design assumptions inherent in PFS scenarios were put into place long before GMs started running products digitally without ever printing them off. We have iPads now, and they don't deal as well as we might like when switching between multiple documents.
Technology has changed since Season 0. This necessitates that the submission/printing assumptions behind wholly electronic products should change as well.
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Lastly: Can we PLEASE stop sending the GM to some other stat block published in another book in a PFS scenario? We have PDFs for these scenarios and there is no print product or page length concern engaged. At all. Ever. EVER. Yes, I have the books in hardcover, yes, I have the books in PDF (all VC's do) but the stat blocks are available online anyways. Can we just STOP with this file/book chase? Especially if we are going to use more monsters from Bestiary 2 and Bestiary 3 in the future?From the feedback I have seen from the writers (Groves being an excellent example) scenarios do indeed have a word limit that impacts cost. Writers are usually paid by length of their work, editors have more to edit, layout artists have more to work on per scenario, etc. All of this impacts the length of time between conception and final product and thus effects the bottom line of how much a scenario costs.
If you want more stat blocks from core assumption books then you have to loose something else.....mainly other story content. I choose story and better more developed scenarios over not needing to pull out a bestiary.
Why are you saying things like this? It's just not true. No matter how many times this stuff is chirped out loud - it doesn't make it true.
If the issue is: we want our noob authors for PFS scenarios to abide by a word count -- then make them do that. Make them refer to these statblocks in other products when assessing the length of their submission and paying them for it. NO PROBLEM.
But at a developer level, take the 14 seconds extra and copy+paste that stat block in for us. THE END. No extra cost, no extra time on the Dev side and NO EXTRA TIME on the GM side.
This is not an extra cost issue. That's PLAINLY AND OBVIOUSLY not true.
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Saying it only takes 14 seconds for the developer and also no additional time for editing and layout over and over doesn't make it true (and is a bit insulting). Sure saying it over and over might make it true in your own head, but it still doesn't make it a truth in the real world. Once you actually work for Paizo, then you can speak on the matter. Until then, we'll just have to trust Mark Moreland when he says that adding more words to scenarios will cost Paizo more money.
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Here was the topic discussed by Don and Jim Groves in regards to cutting Bestiary stat blocks
Jim Groves Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 4 T
Just to chime, not only does it save production costs, but the writers were getting a lot of complaints about boring redundant monster selections.
Since just before Season 3 we've been making a concerted effort to mix it up a little bit.
Don Walker Venture-Captain, Massachusetts—Boston
I'm wondering how this supports not listing stat blocks in the scenarios.
Jim Groves Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 4
Word count Don. Production costs.
Up above, you told Mike Mistele that this was done to reduce production costs. Production costs, especially in a PDF product, are partially development time. It doesn't require a lot of development time to implement a short statblock or to use a template. This also keeps the cost of the product down.
Otherwise, the author prepares an Exel sheet for the creature. The Developer has to review for accuracy and correctness, and both parties have to format the stat block, and its length eats at the word count cap. That takes time and takes money.
Now throwing "monster variety" into the mix was a bit of a tangent in this conversation. "Ya got me." But it was a factor not very long ago in Season Three when we were NOT drawing upon all three Bestiaries even if they were in the PRD (which is something Victor was commenting on). Bestiary 2 was in the PRD (and had been for some time) and we were still required to list the entire statblock. If we wanted to use something from the other Bestiaries, we needed to come up with the word count to provide the statblock. Or- we stuck to Bestiary 1.
So, I went off on a tangent. Bad Jim. Let's get back on topic.
Consider this: you're not losing content. The scenarios are not getting any shorter. Somehow, those words we're not using on the long stat blocks are getting re-purposed and re-used somewhere else in the scenario. Where are they going? I think it's a legitimate question, but the answer is going to vary with each scenario and each other author.
But there is no shortage of requests for improvements on scenarios:
* Interesting faction missions
* Roleplaying situations
* Interesting treasure or new treasures
* Interesting Traps and Puzzles
* Better descriptions or tie-ins to continuity (story)
I think it is a completely legititmate complaint to say, "This has short stat blocks, but the adventure still seems incomplete, or doesn't seem to shine in other respects to justify the extra work it required to prep it."
ON THE OTHER HAND: If the adventure was really special in many other respects, it might be because there were extra words/resources that were diverted from long stat blocks to improve other portions of the scenario.
Whether that is justified or not might be a case-by-case situation, which is one reason we have a review process.
Hopefully this is a more thoughtful and topical post!
For original post see this
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Saying it only takes 14 seconds for the developer and also no additional time for editing and layout over and over doesn't make it true (and is a bit insulting). Sure saying it over and over might make it true in your own head, but it still doesn't make it a truth in the real world. Once you actually work for Paizo, then you can speak on the matter. Until then, we'll just have to trust Mark Moreland when he says that adding more words to scenarios will cost Paizo more money.
Crap to that Kyle. *I* can certainly do it in 14 seconds. Sorry if I am saying things you don't want to hear - but that doesn't mean that the solution is not to say them.
The reason behind this initially was about training new authors. It isn't about cost and never was. There has been a technological change in the intervening period. It requires revisiting.
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I know there are a LOT of groups I could see as running counter to the Pathfinders, alignment or not.
Off the top of my head...
-Hermea. I'm sure there is something a contractual dicatorship would want for the 'greater good' no matter the cost.
-The Whispering Way. A group dedicated to unlife. I'm SURE that there are at least a dozen or more chronicles on the 'hide' list because they cover things the Way would LOVE to find because it would give them lore about the making of undead things (The McGuffin from 'You only die twice' comes to mind)
-The Cult(s) of Rovagug. I can EASILY see the Worldbreaker's followers trying to unleash one of his spawn or find some lore leading to releasing him outright.
-Numeria. I'm sure there are at least a FEW Numerian artifacts in the Society's hands.. or at least suspected artifacts.
-The Pactmasters of Katapash.
-The Hold of Beltzen. Orcs looking to expand.. maybe the Society has something they need..
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You're not saying things I don't want to hear, you're saying things that aren't true. Finding the right creature's stat block, copying and pasting it doesn't take 14 seconds. Assuming that there are never any issues with copying and pasting is asinine. That also means that editors need to review it. Having longer documents takes more time for layout. All of this has been sited by the very people doing it. You're asking everyone to "trust you" versus the people actually doing it. All of your spouting off reminds of a person in my life I'd rather forget (see spoiler for a "cool story bro" moment)
The reason behind this initially was about training new authors. It isn't about cost.
Please cite your sources when making claims.
Example 1: Traffic circles are less efficient than stop lights. This was mostly because he saw people get confused how to progress through them.
Example 2: The Scion (Toyota) brand of cars isn't selling well because there are never any on the road. This was in the first or second year of the brand. We lived near Detroit. There are hardly ANY foreign cars on the road in that area. My wife was working for Toyota at the time and I couldn't stop laughing. That year, Toyota grew 9%. Without Scion, it would have been 2%.
The list of stupid comments goes on. The point being use data. Do research. Question everything. Personal experience is only part of the equation.
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Here is another quote from Jim Groves that gives incite into the effects of word count of scenario and cost.
"The other consideration is word count. The story based faction missions require a bit more word count, just because you do have story elements and their own background. And Mark has pointed out that word count isn't just a facet of printing and page count, it also plays a role in Development productivity hours. You see, I can argue for another 1,000 words as an author because "this is just a PDF", but he has to figure that much more time and effort to Develop those 1,000 words. It's a Development Conservation of Matter and Energy- nothing is really free, even if it's a PDF only product."
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Back to the topic at hand...
It would be interesting to see a disaster strike Absolom. Something big and nasty (war, disease, etc). You could build an entire season around the idea of defending / fixing Absolom. Varying scenarios could comprise small scale battles, stealth missions, delivering food and medicine to citizens.
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My humble and brief opinions....
1.) I love goblins. They represent what PF does best. More, please, but keep them evolving.
2.) I would like to see more orcs, hobgoblins, gnolls, kobolds, troglodytes, trolls, and ogres.
3.) I would like to see less swarms, mindless undead, and Aspis Consortium mooks.
4.) I'm not interested in drow. Dinosaurs don't represent a threat to the Pathfinder Society; they're big mindless lizards. Good hunting and fighting, but not a threat to the Society.
5.) I would love to see the Golden League get some action. They were mentioned a few times in Season 3, but were not truly flushed out. Their partnership with the Aspis folk has fizzled, so it's time for them to try out something.
6.) I would love to see some death in the Pathfinder Leadership ranks. These guys have HUGE targets painted on them; someone (Red Mantis?) needs to cash in on them.
7.) I want Hermea; I want Belkzen; I want Morrowspire.
8.) More intelligent ape capers! The Gorilla King grows restless.
9.) I want some Rahadoum craziness involving attempts to kill gods, destroy the StarStone and other godly artifacts, and pin it on the Pathfinders.
10.) In that vein, I believe that some intelligent and anti-Pathfinder organization out there (Whispering Way? Cult of Groetus? Rogue Shadow Lodge cells?) should organize some kind of scheme to get Pathfinder Society into some serious trouble by having them "discover" an artifact that should NOT be discovered, leading to some disastrous consequences within some previous Pathfinder-friendly country (Andoran? Varisia? Taldor?) that puts PFS on the defensive for an entire season.
These are just my crazy thoughts on how to evolve the direction of the enemies of the Society.
-Dink
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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Please stay on topic. Discussing what does and doesn't constitute more work for development, whether it be stat blocks, word count or whatever, is way off topic and derailing and otherwise good thread. Those derailing it should know better and I don't expect to have to address it again.