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Who says a fighter can't be more than just a fighter?
My character Revin Bitter can dance, debuff, deceive, evade, fight, fly, judge, lead, retreat, scout, sneak, socialize, steal, tank, teleport, think, transform, and use any number of other interesting spell-like and supernatural abilities or skills. He is king of the shadow people, he is a monster assassin, he is a bird man, he is an enigma. He is not cardboard. He is so much more than just a fighter.
He is versatile AND potent. He's awesome in nearly every way. Some say he's not even human. Others say he's Batman.
The only thing keeping your fighters lame and limited is yourself.
Discuss.
Anyone who says fighters are ONLY good for fighting, and also those who constantly create humdrum fighters that aren't really in-depth characters, but faceless PC placeholders that swing swords repeatedly.
Fighters are indeed often more than fighters when they have more non-fighter levels than fighter levels.
On that note, MY fighter can cast ninth-level spells, peons. *posts Wizard 8 / Fighter 1 / Eldritch Knight 10*
Everyone knows that prestige classes don't count. :P
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You posted a shadowdancer, not a fighter.
dotting
I have never understood the fighter hate in 3.5 or Pathfinder. I have made several that I have loved and more importantly have played with several that are even more awesome.
One fighter I played with in 3.5 had the jack of all trades feat and a decent Int so was actually the party skill monkey (although some of the other party members had better specific skills you could always count on him for that random skill no one else had). He also had 7 attacks, and a great AC and saved everything single party member at least once. RP wise was very "knightly" lawfull good and we would use him as our morale compass as the rest of us were are X neutral. Thru the game he acquired the half-fiend template (sold his soul to Asmodeous to save us) and had a variety of spell-like abilities.
Currently, the same player actually, is playing a fighter in our Carrion Crown game. He has skill focus diplomacy and does most of our talking. He is using the phalanx fighter archetype (I think; its the one that allows you to use a 2hand pole arm and a shield at the same time) and is using a tower shield and is feat specked for trip and reposition. As the rest of us RP wise have little tactics and adventuring experience (his backstory is a town guard) he is also our leader in what to do in fights and keeps us alive. He doesn't have many cool abilities yet but we are only lvl 7 and just finished the second book....who knows what will happen down the line (no spoilers since none of us have played the Carrion Crown path before).
So yes fighters require to sacrifice a feat or two, or have a high int to use skills better and are more magic item dependent then other classes. But with a little extra money and some good RP they can do and be ANYTHING.
Although taking skill focus 3 times, only one of which is required for a feat as far as I can tell, may permanently hurt your reputation as a munchkin. Not sure what armor you have, but I'd think your speed is 30 feet too, since due to armor training at level 7, you can move in full speed in even heavy armor. Oh, you have a mithral chain shirt.
Why do you move 20' a round?
If you had done that with a straight fighter or a prestige class that did not get 6 skill points per level that would have been impressive. The post should have read who says Shadow Dancers can't be more than just fighters.
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Although taking skill focus 3 times, only one of which is required for a feat as far as I can tell, may permanently hurt your reputation as a munchkin.
Humans have an alternate racial trait in the ARG that lets them get 3 Skill Focuses for their bonus feat.
Although taking skill focus 3 times, only one of which is required for a feat as far as I can tell, may permanently hurt your reputation as a munchkin.Humans have an alternate racial trait in the ARG that lets them get 3 Skill Focuses for their bonus feat.
Specifically, Focused Study. Which is listed in the characters special qualities (SQ).
Damn youngins and their newfangled character sheet order.
Didn't think to look for Focused Study.
Although taking skill focus 3 times, only one of which is required for a feat as far as I can tell, may permanently hurt your reputation as a munchkin. Not sure what armor you have, but I'd think your speed is 30 feet too, since due to armor training at level 7, you can move in full speed in even heavy armor. Oh, you have a mithral chain shirt.
Why do you move 20' a round?
I have no idea what you're talking about. ;)
Damn youngins and their newfangled character sheet order.
Didn't think to look for Focused Study.
What newfangled character sheet order might you be referring to exactly? The only difference between my sheets and that of Paizo stat blocks is the addition of encumbrance at the bottom and the relocation of languages to the top.
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Indeed if everyone multiclassed out of fighter they too can do more than be a fighter.
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Guys, I made a fighter, but she does so much more than fight. She has loads of skills per level with great class skills, gets huge bonuses against certain enemies or in certain areas, casts a few spells, and she even gets her own animal companion!
Amazing, eh? Check and mate, haters. And all I needed to do to make it work was take 20 levels of Ranger.
And for those of you who say Wizards suck because all they do is cast spells, I think it's time I introduced you to my wizard. He's a magus.
Came in here to say "I'm sure you did with your 2+int skill points." You can roleplay your character any way you want, but in the end you're still bound by what the modifier to your skills are when it comes to proving it.
Also Focused Study is without a doubt my favorite racial ever.
I have many questions:
1. How did you get so many feats? You should have a total of 14 + Focused Study. I counted 17 + your skill focus feats.
2. How did you get 3 levels of armor training with only 8 levels of fighter?
3. How do you get your character sheets to look like that?
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I have many questions:
1. How did you get so many feats? You should have a total of 14 + Focused Study. I counted 17 + your skill focus feats.
Is that counting the feats he gained from Rogue Talents? (Granted to him through the shadowdancer class.) Combat Trick gives a bonus combat feat, and Finesse Rogue gives Weapon Finesse. Weapon Training gives Weapon Focus.
18th level character: 9 feats
8th level fighter: 5 feats
Talent that switches human bonus feat for 3 skill focuses: 3 feats
3 bonus feats from rogue talents: 3 feats
I count at least 20 feats he should have. And he has 20 feats.
2. How did you get 3 levels of armor training with only 8 levels of fighter?
He has a Sash of the War Champion.. He is effectively 12th level for the armor training and bravery class abilities.
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This isn't exactly about fighters in the same sense as the rest of the thread, but I wanted to share a story about a character a former played in my group had. He was basically useless when it came to skills. He could dole out attacks with ease, but was never too good at avoiding damage, despite his AC. He just waded through fights and put himself in very questionable positions. He didn't solve puzzles, and oft times saved our rogue the trouble of searching for traps by activating them. For all intents anfd purposes, he was a meat shield with no other redeeming qualities.
That was, until we were ambushed on a small island in the middle of a subterranean lake in the underdark, after annihilating some kind of huge evil demon lobster. We were fighting in and around a small structure. My cleric and the wizard were under the effects of Confusion and busy trying to kill eachother (That was fun, but we came dangerously close to succeeding) The ranger had some strong blender rounds and things finally started to turn around. Before we wrapped it up though, the Kraken (aw for the love a'!) launched his attack from the water, and we were all still injured. He kept on grappling us! Our mighty casters couldn't break out and many useful spells had already been used, this being our third or fourth battle of the day. Three party members were being drug towards the water, and in serious danger of being pulled under. We were in deep s#+#.
Enter the dumb fighter. Who on earth chooses Improved Sunder for a feat? This guy. He had never used it before, but suddenly starts chopping off the beast's tentacles, freeing the group in short order. The Kraken submerged and we had but 6 seconds of respite before it returned, grabbed up the fighter, and immediately swam him to the bottom of the lake and left him there. It returned to battle the "weaklings". We were ready this time, and did a better job of keeping him at bay. He finally fled for good. So what happened to the fighter? Well he had maxed out Swim as his 1 skill and had at least a +20, which he needed because, dwarves are slow, plate mail is very heavy, and in those days ACP to swim was doubled.
Hooray fighters!
Can he still fight is the primary question? I see a level 18 "fighter" who on a full attack with all attacks hitting and doing max damage that deals 75 points of damage + 2d6 bleed. You would have a hard time even killing your own shadow companion.
I somehow feel a fighter/shadowdancer who has a just barely better than even chance of winning a battle with his own shadow is in a spot of bother (with average damage your looking at 3 rounds to kill it, and 4 rounds to die from the ST damage).
A fighter doesn't need to do 250 damage each round to be effective. More often than not, archers and two-handers are doing TOO MUCH damage, ruining the fun of other players and having a lot of said damage go to waste anyways. If you can average approximately 100 damage each round, you will remain a viable threat for the rest of your career, no matter what you're facing (the toughest monsters have less than 500 hit points). It's at about that time that you need to start diversifying your fighter.
Also, keep in mind that the Raven King crits frequently, the 2d6 bleed STACKS with itself, and that he can blind his foes on a regular basis with no saving throw. All of that together will make him a terrible foe in a fight, against anything not immune to crits, especially when you account for he and his cohort's ability to set up the battlefield in their favor with illusions and darkness (granting him a LOT more durability and maneuverability).
He may be slightly behind a typical fighter in offense, but he makes up for that in defense, maneuverability, and versatility.
Dotting...I love RD's Fighter =D
Thanks!
...How do you "dot" threads? Just post in them?
*awesome story*
Awesome story!
Anything the fighter can do, the Barbarian/Paladin/Ranger can do better.
What does a Fighter got? Feats. That's it. No meaningful class abilities, skills, or spells. He does ONE thing, or variations of that one thing, which is hitting things. And the only thing he gets out of it is just more of something every class gets.
Sure there's a couple interesting archetypes, but most of them are fairly unimpressive and other classes can do what the archetypes do, but usually better.
If I ever ran a campaign, Fighter would be a banned class.
I only wish I'd known this simple fact a long time ago and stopped trying to play fighter thinking "This time it'll be different. This time, I'll get to do something!"
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Yeah just posting here lets me reference back to it in case I miss out on something down the road. I've been referencing your characters on your site for over a year now and I really love some of the concepts your players have used, especially in the Dragonlance campaign...that poor dead Ranger was my favorite haha
I don't know if this counts as a true Fighter, because it has more levels in Shadowdancer than Fighter...
I don't know if this counts as a true Fighter, because it has more levels in Shadowdancer than Fighter...
it's a mobile skirmish fighter that also has a pet shadow and a cleric cohort. just because it has more levels in a prestige class does not mean it is not a fighter. it's just not your typical fighter. if it were level 20, it would likely be a 50/50 mix.
it's no less a fighter than an arcane trickster is a rogue.
I don't know if this counts as a true Fighter, because it has more levels in Shadowdancer than Fighter...it's a mobile skirmish fighter that also has a pet shadow and a cleric cohort. just because it has more levels in a prestige class does not mean it is not a fighter. it's just not your typical fighter. if it were level 20, it would likely be a 50/50 mix.
it's no less a fighter than an arcane trickster is a rogue.
Byt this logic the arcane trickster is also a full blown wizard.
Byt this logic the arcane trickster is also a full blown wizard.I don't know if this counts as a true Fighter, because it has more levels in Shadowdancer than Fighter...it's a mobile skirmish fighter that also has a pet shadow and a cleric cohort. just because it has more levels in a prestige class does not mean it is not a fighter. it's just not your typical fighter. if it were level 20, it would likely be a 50/50 mix.
it's no less a fighter than an arcane trickster is a rogue.
it's neither a full wizard nor a full rogue. it's a rogue who uses wizard spells to augment it's rogueishness. i wouldn't want it as the dedicated arcanist, but i wouldn't mind it as the skill monkey.
even with the spells they get, an arcane trickster still fills the shoes of the rogue, much like Ravingdork's Shadowdancer fills the warrior's shoes.
it's kind of an exception in a sense.
instead of looking at the class by class labels, look at what they contribute to the group.
Having fought creatures with DR 15/-, fast healing 15 and displacement as a spell at level 9, I tend to believe a good source of damage is important for the party. (It was evil though so a Paladin would have had a field day, sadly we didnt have one).
First, that sounds terribly unbalanced for level 9 (it's close to the CR 23 Jabberwock). Second, if everyone in the party is contributing roughly 100 damage per round, then I don't foresee this being a problem. My fighter would pull his weight just like everyone else against just such a creature.
If everyone only did about 75 damage after reduction abilities, then that comes to about 300 damage per round. No monster of any kind is going to survive that for long. The most powerful monsters (such as the aforementioned Jabberwock) will only last 2 rounds under that kind of pressure.
Instead of looking at the class by class labels, look at what they contribute to the group.
This. A million times this!
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And how does this Fighter contribute to the party from level 1? From the looks of things, this character had an 8 Str max at level 1. So with your primary weapon, you'd only be doing d6-1 damage. As the Fighter. And this damage wouldn't really get better until you pick up the +1 agile rapier many levels down the line.
Have you actually played this character from 1 to 18? Because we all know character builds can really turn out different when we have to grow them naturally level by level instead of making all choices for level 18 at once.
If you have played this from level 1, I'd like to hear how he functioned 1-5, and say at level 10. Not just how it looks at level 18.
instead of looking at the class by class labels, look at what they contribute to the group.
By that logic, any "warrior role" ranger, paladin, barbarian, cavalier, gunslinger, or samurai build, or even an NPC using the warrior or aristocrat classes, is a "fighter", even with zero levels in the fighter class.
Let's stop being utterly ridiculous, please.
Especially since 75 DPR is pitiful for an 18th-level martial character, so it's not even good at contributing to the group as a fighter.
It's not a fighter in function because it can't actually dish out damage anywhere close to a fighter and it's not a fighter in name because it has more levels in Shadowdancer. This is a "fighter" in the absolute loosest sense of the word.
Merkatz, at low levels, a character like this would rely on ranged attacks to be effective, until he could get his hands on an agile weapon.
Especially since 75 DPR is pitiful for an 18th-level martial character, so it's not even good at contributing to the group as a fighter.
Just because it isn't up there with two-handed fighters and archers doesn't mean it's pitiful.
Do not confuse falling short of min/maxed damage for "not being able to contribute to the party." I've already shown that a character of ANY level capable of doing about 75-100 damage per round can and will contribute to his party's success at ALL levels of play.
instead of looking at the class by class labels, look at what they contribute to the group.By that logic, any "warrior role" ranger, paladin, barbarian, cavalier, gunslinger, or samurai build, or even an NPC using the warrior or aristocrat classes, is a "fighter", even with zero levels in the fighter class.
Let's stop being utterly ridiculous, please.
as D&D uses level for various things, whether a measure of power, a floor of the structure, or a measure of progress
i use 'fighter' for both reference to the class itself and any character who is built to offer primarily a contribution of damage. this can also refer to pets, summons, cohorts, or bound outsiders, as long as their primary contribution is damage. the damage may be physical or magical depending on the character.
not all 'fighters' are good ones. you can easily end up with martial characters who deal sub par damage. it primarily comes from not capitalizing on power attack.
Merkatz, at low levels, a character like this would rely on ranged attacks to be effective, until he could get his hands on an agile weapon.
Especially since 75 DPR is pitiful for an 18th-level martial character, so it's not even good at contributing to the group as a fighter.Just because it isn't up there with two-handed fighters and archers doesn't mean it's pitiful.
Do not confuse falling short of min/maxed damage for "not being able to contribute to the party." I've already shown that a character of ANY level capable of doing about 75-100 damage per round can and will contribute to his party's success at ALL levels of play.
true enough, i had a human brawler 3/martial artist/ironskin monk/master of many styles 4 whom with improved 2WF and dragon style struck 4 times at +11/11/6/6 when 2WFing and power attacking for 1d8+16 per punch. abusing the no off hand for unarmed strikes rule. DM waived the hobgoblin requirement due to her unleashed style backstory.
she had a 20 Str, Weapon Focus, Brawling Mithril Shirt, Dragon Ferocity, and +1 fists (DM allowed enchanting the fists themselves for the price of a single weapon). she had no Ki pool.
she had a 18 str (20 w/ belt) a 16 dex and 14 con with toughness (FC went in skills) and an AC of 20. she had 62 hit points.
most CR7 foes died too quickly when she got to full attack.
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Umm...my caster focused EK does more then that amount of damage RD.
At level 18...
BAB 14 + 4 (str) + 4(size str) -2( size) -2(TWF) +5(weapon) +4(GH) + 2(Weapon focus/GWF) for +29/24/19 with main hand and +27 with shield bash. Damage is 4d8 (huge bastard sword + impact) + 15 for each sword hit and 3d6 (huge bashing light shield) + 9 for the shield. Yeah your to hit is a bit better, but I can rime elemental aura cold to entangle anything not immune or highly resistent to cold (no save). And that's not including have a couple of vamp touchs spells stored in the weapons.
And you know how often I get to melee and be relivant at high levels games with such piddly damage? Yeah not so much. You know what I can be useful for in combat? Hungry pit + true strike (or quickened) shield bash critter into pit to remove from map. Maze to remove critter from map. Or the various other remove from map spells I have. Your "fighter" can't do the damage of a build where fighting is the secondary aspect (and secondary by a good margin with my whole 1 level of fighter). That is not a very good fighter.
He has no ranged feats at all, so from level 1-5 he will be plinking away for 1d8 damage a round, taking full penalties for cover and melee combat?
Eww.
Presumably he gets Point-Blank Shot at first level and Precise Shot at second level as fighter bonus feats and trades them away later. But then he's either delaying his entry into Shadowdancer (i.e. the only thing that makes him anything more than a completely generic fighter except worse) until ninth level or he's carrying around Point-Blank Shot forever.
And even then he's still only plinking for 1d8 damage until he can finally buy an Agile weapon. Which, using the "no single item costs more than half your WBL" guideline, isn't until seventh level. Yeah, good luck finding a party to put up with you.
More often than not, archers and two-handers are doing TOO MUCH damage, ruining the fun of other players
Oh, now I get it. Martials are too good at high levels and need to intentionally gimp themselves at their job so the poor casters don't feel bad.
Merkatz, at low levels, a character like this would rely on ranged attacks to be effective, until he could get his hands on an agile weapon.He has no ranged feats at all, so from level 1-5 he will be plinking away for 1d8 damage a round, taking full penalties for cover and melee combat?
Eww.
Or, you know, he could take a few ranged feats then retrain them later. Fighters can do that now.
Umm...my caster focused EK does more then that amount of damage RD.
At level 18...
BAB 14 + 4 (str) + 4(size str) -2( size) -2(TWF) +5(weapon) +4(GH) + 2(Weapon focus/GWF) for +29/24/19 with main hand and +27 with shield bash. Damage is 4d8 (huge bastard sword + impact) + 15 for each sword hit and 3d6 (huge bashing light shield) + 9 for the shield. Yeah your to hit is a bit better, but I can rime elemental aura cold to entangle anything not immune or highly resistent to cold (no save). And that's not including have a couple of vamp touchs spells stored in the weapons.
And you know how often I get to melee and be relivant at high levels games with such piddly damage? Yeah not so much. You know what I can be useful for in combat? Hungry pit + true strike (or quickened) shield bash critter into pit to remove from map. Maze to remove critter from map. Or the various other remove from map spells I have. Your "fighter" can't do the damage of a build where fighting is the secondary aspect (and secondary by a good margin with my whole 1 level of fighter). That is not a very good fighter.
This is not a competition, Cold Napalm. If a character is able to contribute meaningfully, then that is enough. It doesn't matter if your character can do 250 damage and mine only 100 when most enemies we face only have 80 hp.
Oh, now I get it. Martials are too good at high levels and need to intentionally gimp themselves at their job so the poor casters don't feel bad.
Nobody said anything about "gimping characters." Don't put your own spin on what others are saying. It's bad form. You know full well I said nothing of the sort.
Once a fighter is fully capable of doing his job as a fighter, what is the point of further focus I ask?
Ideally, players and GMs alike are mindful of how their chosen playstyles effect the people they play with.
Or, you know, he could take a few ranged feats then retrain them later. Fighters can do that now.
Remember that you don't just get to retrain as many feats as you want whenever you want. You can retrain one feat at 4th level and one feat at 8th level.
So, at 4th level, you're getting rid of Precise Shot, leaving yourself with just Point-Blank Shot and eating penalties for firing into melee until you can finally afford that Agile weapon. Until you become an 8th-level fighter, you still have Point-Blank Shot, which means you either don't enter Shadowdancer until 9th level or you're saddled for a long time with this feat you're not using.
Or maybe instead of Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot you pick up Deadly Aim plus some other thing that you get rid of at fourth level anyhow. Now your damage is still bad (albeit very slightly less bad) and your to-hit is awful.
So, no, I'm not convinced. For the first six levels you're basically playing a Bard who can't use bardic performance or cast spells.
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Every four levels, the first of which won't be useful to you, but fair enough. What feats would choose for level 1-5 then? A character who can do nothing but 1-8 damage at level 4-5 is not pulling his weight wouldn't you agree? A wizard who picked a up a light crossbow could do that in his spare time, with only 3 or so less AB.
Once a fighter is fully capable of doing his job as a fighter, what is the point of further focus I ask?
Ideally, players and GMs alike are mindful of how their chosen playstyles effect the people they play with.
If memory serves me correctly, your group turned on you and ejected one of your characters because you tried to play a sorcerer who was practically useless in combat because you spent the first two rounds of every fight casting defensive self-buffs that rarely mattered.
Forgive me if I'm not convinced when you talk about how you know exactly how much contribution is enough and are always coordinating with your GM and fellow players to make sure your playstyles are compatible and your characters are supporting the party properly.
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Or, you know, he could take a few ranged feats then retrain them later. Fighters can do that now.This is not a competition, Cold Napalm. If a character is able to contribute meaningfully, then that is enough. It doesn't matter if your character can do 250 damage and mine only 100 when most enemies we face only have 80 hp.
Except of course as roberta pointed out, that requires you to be fighter until level 9...doing plain old fighter stuff. And without the retrain, your character will be absolutely useless until you can afford an agile weapon (which isn't even allow in many tables as it is an accessory enhancement that was not ported to UE)...which is quite a few levels of just bad.
What the hell kind of game do you play in where you regularly slaughter little kids? Seriouly 80 HP enemies at level 18? Seriously? That isn't even a mook at those levels...that is little kids for you to slaughter. The three CR 18 critters in the first besty book has 290 hp, 297 HP and 324 HP. If your using CR -4 critters as minions...astral deva is 172, nalfeshnee is 207. I don't even see how a moderately half asses wizard would have 80 at level 18 unless they rolled 1 for every single level. So no, it isn't a competition...that would have required your fighter to be actually able to FIGHT.