I was thinking a munchkin might combine levels of Alchemist and Monk. While they would have a missile weapon(bombs) the mutagens would compromise their wisdom bonus.
A monk might use meditation(a few minutes) to regain some chi points. I use meditation at work to boost my lifting strength.
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If I did an alchemist/monk i'd no doubt use Vivisectionist. Monk still has good battlefield mobility, and is a good friend of a flanker; adding sneak attack to that is good synergy.
Low-leveled bombs are basically just free alchemist's fires. Which by level 4 or so are negligible in cost anyway.
We used CR10 monster stats as a yardstick, as that's a tough one-on-one fight for a level 10 character.No, it's more than tough (at least it's assumed to be, though proper preparation and optimization can make it just "tough"). A CR 9 monster is "epic" for a 10th level character. CR 10 isn't even on the chart.
Then why can the paladin demolish it in three rounds?
I think you misread me. Four 10th level characters (a standard APL 10 party) vs four CR8 monsters (a CR12 encounter, as four monsters is monster CR+4) is a hard encounter (CR 2 higher than APL). Thus, for a single 10th level character, a single CR8 opponent should be about equally hard (assuming both teams have about as good teamwork, though that would depend on the monsters in question).Four 10th level character vs four CR8 monster is designated as a "hard" fight, so maybe if you're going to do one-on-ones do them vs a CR8 monster?Er, no. Level 10 party should have an average encounter vs a CR10 creature. A hard encounter is CR12, a BBEG fight against CR13-14.
To be honest, a CR8 should be a foe a 10th level character can defeat solo. In reality, some CR8s will pose massive problems to some classes, others will be a walkover.
So if you're doing the fights with the assumption that the monk/test character has aid from three other party members, CR 10 is an average encounter. But in a one on one with neither side getting aid a CR 8 monster is a "hard" encounter.
Since most on these threads are veteran players and used to playing on "hard mode" I understand if you do it against stronger opponents, just remember that isn't the type of fights the game is designed around.
I see where you are coming from, but it's not the yardstick we've used previously. It's certainly something we can add to the mix.
Edit:
Ilja, can you see any exploits from dipping monk if the monk gets wisdom bonus to hit instead of strength with monk weapons, maneuvers, and unarmed strikes? It's a question we've been pondering, and I can't see any major ones at all given that Guided Hand is a feat clerics can take anyway, and other classes would lose almost as much as they would gain from such a dip, and have to invest feats as well.
Then why can the paladin demolish it in three rounds?
Because the game is easy for people who know how to properly optimize for combat (and want to do so), which means strong classes can do far more than they're supposed to.
This is to enable people to make choices purely for roleplaying (I'm not saying you can't roleplay an optimized character, just that some character concepts can not be made well and still optimized), such as the veteran mercenary fighter putting his Int at 12 and taking Skill Focus (Cooking) because it fits his background as the company cook.
Basically, since we're veteran players and optimizers, we tend to do stuff harder than they should be. If you look at Jade Regent for example, at 10th level these are some of the encounters (to page 34 of forest of spirits):
- Two CR 12 "hard" encounters, one with 4xCR8 and one 8xCR6
- Five CR 11 "challenging" encounters, one 3xCR8, two 1xCR11, two 4xCR7
- Three CR 10 "average" encounters, one 1xCR10, two 2xCR8
- Two CR 9, one 2xCR7 and one 8xCR3
- A few more CR 8 or lower encounters
- No encounter with "epic" difficulty
These are mostly in such a way that you can rest inbetween each fight, but you're not always "supposed" to; but
One of the CR 12 encounters is on a whole specific day with no other encounters, and the other CR12 encounter has had it's combatants debuffed by different means even before the combat
So if looking at those encounters dividable with four, we have
- One hard encounter with a CR 8 creature and one hard with two CR 6 creatures
- Two challenging encounters with a CR 7 creature
- One easy encounter with two CR3 creatures
These are the kind of things the characters are expected to meet. Yes, a well-optimized party of experience players will BLAST through an AP, but that's not the base assumption.
To be honest, a CR8 should be a foe a 10th level character can defeat solo. In reality, some CR8s will pose massive problems to some classes, others will be a walkover.
Yes, this is of course the case and an issue with the nature of the adventure group's tendency towards specialization. But this is always the case regardless of CR, that some monsters are harder for some classes. My comments are solely on the CR issue, not of the issues that one-on-ones always have.
I agree that a 10th level character should usually be able to beat a CR8 enemy. It's still designated as a hard encounter though, so it's okay if it will lose some times (or against some enemies). An average encounter is a CR6 in a one on one.
The thing is, I don't think the top priority should be that the monk has to perform well under higher-CR-than-designed-for encounters. I think the top priority should be making it so that it's EASY to make it work for the AP's and such. Currently, you can make a monk work very well for an AP such as Jade Regent - but you have to optimize it and forgo most non-optimized choices. Meanwhile, most other classes can survive such an AP with only basic optimization and can still pick options for purely RP reasons (a paladin that puts two feats to Skill Focus: Knowledge Religion and Skill Focus: Heal because it fits ze's concept but otherwise is decently optimized can do well in Jade Regent. A monk doing the same will not).
I'm not saying "change the parameter" - I just wanted to say those aren't the base assumptions of the game
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I see where you are coming from, and thank you for the suggestions - I think we should use some of these.
One reason we have gone with optimized choices is to see if we can 'break' the monk builds.
I agree, the monk should work 'intuitively' and not as it currently does. That's one goal we have, and I think we are getting there with some of our ideas by making the monk work as it appears that it should: making wisdom the high attribute, making the unarmed strike a useful weapon, allowing the monk to get through DR rather than just pretending to.
dotted
When a mutagen raises strength, it lowers intelligence. A lot of the Monk skills are baggage so that's ok.
When a mutagen raises strength, it lowers intelligence. A lot of the Monk skills are baggage so that's ok.
That depends, a lot of a monk's skills are pretty important, and you can build skill-focussed monks. Don't gimp the skills and you can function as party scout, or at least assist in the role. Acrobatics is important to the monk's mobility, as is Swim and Climb. Perception is vital for everyone.
No, I wouldn't call the monk's skills baggage. Without them, spending your time just hitting things, even the best rebuilt monk is generally a 2nd rate fighter, why do that when you could be a full fighter?
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IMHO the monk has an excellent skill selection fitting my view of a monk very well.
Perform, and to a lesser extent knowledge history and religion, are wasted on a class that should be hitting things. That's my opinion, and you have a long way to go to change my mind.
Well, a monk is not just a fighter he is a spiritual fighter, so knowledge religion is very appropriate. Monks are certainly inspired by Shaolin monks and similar who were first and foremost monks in the pure spiritual/religious sense. The fighting techniques came later. Being monks living in monasteries with long history where knowledge is kept, makes Knowledge history another appropriate class skill.
Of course there are more possible backgrounds for monks which do not include a monastic background, but then you are not forced to take the skill, but it's there for those that do choose a monastic or spiritual background.
Perform is a very nice skill supplementing role playing in my opinion. Categories that come into mind are Perform (singing), Perform (kata), Perform (show combat) or Perform (Oratory) for reciting parables of the task of heroes of old. Think of the Chinese festivals where the dragon puppets are played by a number of people hidden in them where it is a great honor to do that and requires the appropriate skill to perform the ritualistic fake combats.
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Perform, and to a lesser extent knowledge history and religion, are wasted on a class that should be hitting things. That's my opinion, and you have a long way to go to change my mind.
You can argue by the same logic that rogues should only be stabbing things in the back, wizards only casting spells, bards only singing, etc.
Skills are useful all on their own. While I will agree that a monk's skill selection and number of skill ranks is not enough to make them a good skill-monkey/scout on their own, the monk can still achieve a lot with their skills.
Knowledge skills tell you about monsters, Perform could be useful as an aside (though I agree it's largely RP purposes for the monk, I did have a snake-style monk qualify for Duelist once).
Looking at the skills and saying "hey, here's some that are bad so the skill set is baggage" is the reverse of what you should do. It's like looking at the druid spell list and saying "hey, call lightning sucks so druid spells are mostly just baggage".
You look at the BEST skills, not the worst ones. And Acrobatics, Perception, Sense Motive, Stealth, and to a lesser extent Escape Artist and Ride are very useful skills to have one or several ranks in. It's more than enough to spend the monks full skill allotment.
Which is why it's so sad they often need to dump their int to be effective in combat.
This is far from fully fleshed out, but I thought it was worth thinking about. I would be interested to see how you guys think it compares.
she can maintain focus for 2 additional rounds. Temporary increases to Wisdom, such as those gained from spells like Owls Wisdom,
do not increase the total number of rounds that
a monk may use this ability per day. A monk can enter focus
as a free action. The total number of rounds of focus per
day is renewed after resting for 8 hours, although these
hours do not need to be consecutive.
While focused, a monk gains an insight bonus to attack and
damage equal to half her Wisdom modifier.
Focus Powers (Ex): As a monk gains levels, she
learns to use her focus in new ways. Starting at 2nd level, a
barbarian gains a focus power. She gains another focus power
for every two levels of monk attained after 2nd level.
A monk gains the benefits of focus powers only while
focused, and some of these powers require the monk to use additional focus, or take an action first. Unless otherwise noted,
a monk cannot select an individual power more than once.
(most of the monks tertiary abilities could easily fall into this category)
Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, a monk gains Improved
Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be
with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk
may make unarmed strikes with his hands full. There is
no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking
unarmed. A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus
on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes.
Usually a monk’s unarmed strikes deal lethal damage,
but he can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with
no penalty on his attack roll. He has the same choice to
deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.
A monk’s unarmed strike is treated as both a
manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the
purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve
either manufactured weapons, natural weapons,
or target the monk to the same effect.
A monk also deals more damage with his unarmed
strikes than a normal person would.
A monk using unarmed strike deals 1D6 damage(1D4 if small, 1D8 if large).
Monastary Training (Ex):At first level, The monks special training manifests in the
form of the two-weapon combat feat at 1st, improved two-weapon fighting at 8th, and greater two-weapon fighting at 15th level. Any two-weapon fighting feat that would be available to a two weapon fighter is available to the monk with the exception of double slice(as the monk already has this rolled into unnarmed strike).Any feats that require double slice are accessable by the monk. At fifth level, the monks focused training in this specialized area grants further boons. The monk gains weapon training with unarmed strikes and monk weapons as the fighter class feature.Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), a
monk becomes further trained in the use of unarmed strikes and monk weapons
weapons. He gains an additional +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls
when using weapons of this kind. For example, a ninth level monk would have a +2 to unarmed strike attack and damage. A monk also adds this bonus to any combat maneuver
checks made with monk weapons or unarmed strikes. This bonus
also applies to the monks Combat Maneuver Defense
when defending against disarm and sunder attempts
made against weapons from this group.
Fast Movement (Ex): At 3rd level, a monk gains an
inherent bonus to his land speed at third level. This bonus starts at +10 feet and increases by ten feet every six levels(half the standard monk speed progression).maxes out at thirty feat at 15th
A monk in armor or carrying a medium or heavy load loses this extra speed.
Ki Strike (Su): As long as he has at least 1 point of focus remaining, he can make a ki strike. At 4th level, ki strike grants his unarmed attacks a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls, as well as allowing him unarmed attacks to affect incorporeal creatures and overcoming damage reduction as a weapon of that enhancement bonus. Ki strike improves with the character's monk level. At 8th level, and every four levels gained thereafter, the enhancement bonus granted on his unarmed strikes for attack rolls and damage rolls increases by +1, to a maximum bonus of +5 at 20th level.In addition, this enhancement bonus enhances stunning fist DC's. ripped out of MA's ki strike (thanks MA)
Trogdar MONK
Human, 10th level monk. 20-pt buy (+2 racial in Wis).
Starting ability scores: Str 12, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 8
level 10 ability scores (pre-magic): Str 12, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 8.
Magic Items: Agile amulet of mighty fists(5,000gp), Belt of Physical Might +2 (Con/Dex, 10,000 gp), Boots of Elvenkind (2,500 gp), Bracers of Armor +4 (16,000 gp), Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2 (4,000 gp), Monk's Robes (13,000 gp), Ring of Protection +2 (8,000 gp); 3500 gp remaining for consumables.
Final ability scores: Str 12, Dex 20/18, Con 16/14, Int 10, Wis 20/18, Cha 8.
BAB: +7
Unarmed Strike:(while focused) +16 (1D10+11 19-20/x2) (+5 Dex,+2 focus, +2 monastic weapons training, +2 ki strike, -2 two-weapon fighting)
UAS w/ki: +16/+16 (1D10+11, 19-20/x2)
Full attack: +16/+16/+11/+11 (1D10+11, 19-20/x2)
Full attack w/ki: +16/+16/+16/+11/+11 (1D10+11, 19-20/x2)
Focus per day: 26 rounds minus focus power usage
Ki Strike: +2
Monastery Training: +2
AC: 30 (Flat-footed 24, Touch 30)
(10+10stats+3monk+4bracers+2ring+1dodge)
Stunning Fist: 10 per day, DC 21
Saves: Fort +10, Reflex +12, Will +12 (immune to disease, +2 vs. enchantments)
Movement: 50'
Initiative: +9
Hit Points: 94 (10d8+30+10 favoured class+10 toughness)
Feats: Weapon finesse (1), improved initiative (3), Deflect Arrows (MB-1), Dodge (HB-1), Improved Critical (MB-10), Improved Grapple (MB-2), Improved Trip (MB-6), Mobility (5), toughness (7), Blind-Fight (9)
Skills (Favored Class bonus, all levels): Acrobatics 10 ranks (+21/+43 jumping), Climb 5 ranks (+12), Escape Artist 5 ranks (+10), Perception 10 ranks (+17), Sense Motive 10 ranks (+17), Stealth 5 ranks (+10), Swim 5 ranks (+12)
This is a straight copy of MA's build for the sake of ease. There may be copy/paste errors.
Oops, it should also be noted that I removed flurry altogether as it caused more rules problems than anything. I rolled two-weapon fighting into the monastic training.
full attack should be 40.26
full attack with ki should be 52.74
standard 12.48
standard with ki 24.96
Looking at the skills and saying "hey, here's some that are bad so the skill set is baggage" is the reverse of what you should do. It's like looking at the druid spell list and saying "hey, call lightning sucks so druid spells are mostly just baggage".
You look at the BEST skills, not the worst ones. And Acrobatics, Perception, Sense Motive, Stealth, and to a lesser extent Escape Artist and Ride are very useful skills to have one or several ranks in. It's more than enough to spend the monks full skill allotment.
Which is why it's so sad they often need to dump their int to be effective in combat.
Look, the mutagen effects the user only during combat. Anyone who multiclasses as an alchemist for combat purposes, usually isn't using the mutagen for performing in a no opera. Also, they are more concerned with exterminating the undead than identifying it. They can try to identify it after they and the barbarian rekill it.
This is far from fully fleshed out, but I thought it was worth thinking about. I would be interested to see how you guys think it compares.
** spoiler omitted **...
You'll probably remove where you accidently typed Barbarian.
Focus Gem. This fire opal clips to a headband and occupies the same slot. Only one augment item per magic item. In any case it provides 5 rounds of focus and 5 chi per day. It should cost about 10,000 retail(It's a big opal) unless someone can calculate it more accurately.