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Specifically number 4 is what I'm looking at. I've been doing my comparison against a two kukri fighter but I'm wondering if anyone had crunched numbers for a melee bard or great sword fighter or anything else.We set the goals back a page ago, and the builds exceed them.
The goals were.
1.Should be able to hit with a primary attack more than 50% but less than 75%
2.Stunning fist should work more than 10% but less that 25%
3.AC should be greater than the Bestiary averages (it is a melee class)
4.DPR should be greater than the average ¾ caster class wading into melee but less than the average Martial Class (we can discuss what these exact numbers are, but again, just looking for consensus)
5.All of this should be able to be accomplished unarmored and unarmed.Those were the agreed goalposts, both as a min and a man. Most of the builds exceed them.
Power creep isn't the goal, balancing is.
I am open to discussion on what the number should be for 4, but I would point out that most of the builds are surpassing 1 and 2.
Base AC for CR 10 is 24, high save is 13 and low is 9.
Looking at Hobagh's and MA's builds, comparing to level 10 CR first:
Hit points 130 - both down on this, 83 for both.
AC 24 - MA is flying at 29, Hobagh is struggling at 25. With few HP I would need AC high.
High Attack 18 - Hobagh hits this on +18 with flurry, +20 single attack. MA is behind at +16.
High damage 45 - Hobagh beats this on 56, so does MA at 52.
Primary save 19 - MA beats it at 20 for stunning fist DC, Hobagh falls short with 18.
Secondary Save 13 - n/a
Good save 13 - both are behind this, which is bad news for a class which is supposed to have great saves. Hobagh's best is +12, MA's is +11.
Bad save 9 - Hobagh beats this at +11, MA matches it at +9.
Now at the build criteria:
1.Should be able to hit with a primary attack more than 50% but less than 75% - both fall into this, Hobagh beats it for single attacks, MA just scrapes in.
2.Stunning fist should work more than 10% but less that 25% - well Hobagh's best hits 85% on single strike, but the save is failed only 20% so his net success is 17%. MA hits 65% and the save is failed 35% giving 22.75% success rate.
3.AC should be greater than the Bestiary averages (it is a melee class) - check, although only just for Hobagh.
4.DPR should be greater than the average ¾ caster class wading into melee but less than the average Martial Class (we can discuss what these exact numbers are, but again, just looking for consensus)
5.All of this should be able to be accomplished unarmored and unarmed. Check.
We really need to look at #4...
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OK, here's a sample build for the test of how much DPR a 3/4 BAB class can do. I used a magus, and I will assume that he is just going all out and not using spells.
Male Human (Chelaxian) Magus 10
LN Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +3; Senses Perception +10
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Defense
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AC 21, touch 13, flat-footed 20 (+7 armor, +1 Dex, +1 natural, +2 deflection) (AC 26 buffed)
hp 83 (10d8+30)
Fort +10, Ref +4 (+5 with buffs), Will +7
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +3 Scimitar +17/+12 (1d6+11/18-20/x2) (enhanced +23/+23/+18, 1d6+13/15-20/x2) and
. . Unarmed strike +13/+8 (1d3+6/x2)
Ranged Masterwork Composite longbow (Str +6) +9/+4 (1d8+6/x3) (enhanced +12/+12/+7 (1d8+9/x3)
Special Attacks Accurate Strike, Arcane Accuracy +4, Hasted Assault (4 rds), Spellstrike
Magus Spells Prepared (CL 10, 13 melee touch, 8 ranged touch):
4 (2/day) Dragon's Breath (DC 18), Dimension Door
3 (4/day) Haste (DC 17), Keen Edge (DC 17), Fireball (DC 17), Dispel Magic
2 (5/day) Cat's Grace (DC 16), Acid Arrow, Web (DC 16), Glitterdust, Frigid Touch
1 (6/day) Magic Missile, Shocking Grasp, Shield (x3), Grease (DC 15)
0 (at will) Read Magic, Detect Magic, Dancing Lights, Disrupt Undead, Spark (DC 14)
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Statistics
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Str 20/22, Dex 10/12, Con 12/14, Int 16/18, Wis 10, Cha 8
Base Atk +7; CMB +13; CMD 29
Feats Combat Casting, Defensive Combat Training, Eschew Materials, Spell Penetration, Toughness +10, Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Weapon Specialization (Scimitar)
Traits Outlander - Exile, Resilient
Skills Climb +14, Fly +9, Intimidate +7, Knowledge (arcana) +17, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +13, Knowledge (planes) +13, Perception +10, Ride +9, Sense Motive +1, Spellcraft +17, Stealth +2, Swim +10, Use Magic Device +7
Languages Aklo, Azlanti, Common, Draconic, Infernal
SQ Arcane Pool (+3) (9/day), Improved Spell Combat, Knowledge Pool, Spell Recall
Combat Gear +3 Mithral Chain shirt, +3 Scimitar, Masterwork Composite longbow (Str +6); Other Gear Amulet of natural armor +1, Belt of physical perfection +2, Handy haversack (empty), Headband of vast intelligence +2 (Perception), Ring of protection +2
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Special Abilities
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Accurate Strike (Ex) 2 Arcane Pool: Melee attacks resolve as touch attacks.
Arcane Accuracy +4 (Su) 1 Arcane Pool: +4 to attack rolls until the end of your turn.
Arcane Pool (+3) (9/day) (Su) Infuse own power into a held weapon, granting enhancement bonus or selected item powers.
Combat Casting +4 to Concentration checks to cast while on the defensive.
Eschew Materials Cast spells without materials, if component cost is 1 gp or less.
Hasted Assault (4 rds) (Su) Sacrifice a prepared slot to gain haste for a number of rounds equal to the spell's level.
Improved Spell Combat (Ex) Use a weapon with one hand at -2 and cast a spell with the other.
Knowledge Pool (Su) Spend Arcane Pool points to prepare a magus spell that is not in your spellbook for 1 day.
Spell Penetration +2 to caster levels checks to overcome spell resistance.
Spell Recall (Su) Spend your Arcane Pool to recall spells you have already cast.
Spellstrike (Su) Deliver touch spells as part of a melee attack.
However, I will assume that he IS going to use his magus abilities to enhance his weapon and attacks, and that he's buffed up ahead of time (hey, he is a spell caster, it's what he'll do). Hence he will enhance his weapon to +5 (keen) (1 arcane pool) and use his Arcane Insight (1 arcane pool). He can do this for four combats a day, in effect. I will assume he is hasted, and has shield and cat's grace active.
Hence his attacks on a CR10 target will be:
+23/+23/+18 (1d6+13/15-20/x2)
In addition, he can two-hand for another +3 damage.
95%/95%/75% = 255% strikes at 16.5 average x 1.3 for critical hits = 54.6975 DPR
Or two-handed:
95%/95%/75% = 255% strikes at 19.5 average x 1.3 for critical hits = 64.6425 DPR
DR doesn't matter as his weapon is boosted to +5. Of course if he really faced a tough foe he could spend 2 arcana and resolve his attacks as touch attacks...
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I did not read the whole thread, so if I am repeating anything, sorry.
My group has one house rule and a couple of items that makes monks great.
The house rule is simple, Monks add their wisdom modifier to CMB as well as to their CMD. This turns the monks into the undisputed masters of Combat maneuvers, which adds great flavor to the monk in the correct direction. Increasing damage output for the monk is not the only fix as far as we are concerned.
The items are weighted knuckle gloves and hard top sandals. They each add a +1 to +4 to unarmed strike damage (so wearing a basic set of each ones grants you a +2 to each unarmed attack you land). The materials used to make them heavier determines the bonus to damage. And we enchant them like regular weapons. You could conceivably have frozen fists and burning feet, for example.
There is a high level npc who has several sets with him. Including one that has metal spikes on both gloves and sandals, making his damage piercing. I am sure a half moon blade could be argued into the gloves if you really wanted to.
I also recall (but I am not sure if it is 3.5 or PF) craft magical tattoo, which a caster can use to permanently imbue the monk with whatever item enchant for the most part, if you needed something that was technically not a homebrew.
Here is the entire list of 'minimal' suggestions I made.
What I don't like about the 3.5 flurry is that the monk only gets one more attack than a fighter even at higher levels. It should be two more attacks IMHO from about level 8 on. CRB monk goes up to three more, but I think I could live with one less attack, if there are more attacks with highest attack bonus like the 3.5 flurry produces.
I'd let monastic weapon training start at level 1. This would result in lifting the 3/4 BAB to exactly full BAB for just monk weapons, unarmed strikes and CMB. That's where it should be, I think.
Contrary to the CRB this would work not only flurrying but for standard actions and AoO as well.
What about the following flurry:
3/4 BAB, the monk gets twice as many attacks as normal, i.e. starts with +0/+0, at level 8 gets +6/+6/+1/+1 etc. Additionally at levels 5, 11 and 18 he starts to get one of the two upcoming iterative attacks starting at -2. If someone can put that second rule into nice clear words I'd be grateful :-)
I'd drop the -2 penalty altogether as this makes the progression simpler. The result is quite similar to the CRB flurry, except it is based on 3/4 BAB. Add in the modified monastic training from above to effectively get full BAB for monkish attacks (except qualifying for feats etc.).
1st: +0/+0 (monastic training: +1)
2nd: +1/+1
3rd: +2/+2
4th: +3/+3
5th: +3/+3/-2 (monastic training: +2)
6th: +4/+4/-1
7th: +5/+5/+0
8th: +6/+6/+1/+1
9th: +6/+6/+1/+1 (monastic training: +3)
10th: +7/+7/+2/+2
11th: +8/+8/+3/+3/-2
12th: +9/+9/+4/+4/-1
13th: +9/+9/+4/+4/-1 (monastic training: +4)
14th: +10/+10/+5/+5/+0
15th: +11/+11/+6/+6/+1/+1
16th: +12/+12/+7/+7/+2/+2
17th: +12/+12/+7/+7/+2/+2 (monastic training: +5)
18th: +13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3/-2
19th: +14/+14/+9/+9/+4/+4/-1
20th: +15/+15/+10/+10/+5/+5/+0
BAB from other classes should just increase the attack values for flurry but not add additional attacks.
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OK, here's a sample build for the test of how much DPR a 3/4 BAB class can do. I used a magus, and I will assume that he is just going all out and not using spells.
** spoiler omitted **...
If you are spending limited resources for the Magus you need to do the same for the monk.
The monk would be adding an additional attack at top bab, for example.
And the Monk can do that more than 4 times a day.
I think more realistically, we should look at normal and buffed and two separate categories.
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I don't like reverting to 3.5 flurry either. If the simply make it TWF with monk weapons, that fits the intent they seem to be going for as well as the flavor of what they are going for.
I do kind of like the adding wisdom to CMB and CMD as a compromise for Dabblers proposal have Wisdom as attack bonus. I am fine with Monks being way ahead on Maneuvers, it is kind of a monk thing to do.
I honestly think that you guys should be looking at making wisdom something that is as important to the monk as it is to the ranger instead of trying to rewrite the rules to accommodate a wisdom prime melee class.
If you used Master Arminas' changes to melee to hit, and then altered the way ki was accrued so that sky high wisdom was less of a concern, then a monk could focus more on melee statistics that already grant to hit chance.
I honestly think that the class is a melee focus, and as such should have their primary stat focus be hitting (through strength or dexterity).
Make the ki enhancement require a wisdom modifier that equals its enhancement (+5 at level 20) and then add that enhancement to all stunning fist DC's.
Basically, if you can make a monks ki abilities work off of a wisdom score of twenty at high level, then the class immediately has less multiple attribute dependency.
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Wisdom is more important to the monk than it is to the ranger. It is AC, Stunning Fist, and Ki.
A ranger with 14 Wisdom is fine, even at high levels. A monk with 14 wisdom is in trouble.
MA's fixes go way to far, which is part of why the Devs have kept putting this on the backburner.
Until we start asking for realistic fixes that don't make the class overpowered, they will keep putting us in the "can't be made happy" classification.
If you are spending limited resources for the Magus you need to do the same for the monk.OK, here's a sample build for the test of how much DPR a 3/4 BAB class can do. I used a magus, and I will assume that he is just going all out and not using spells.
** spoiler omitted **...
Perhaps, but consider this: The magus can spend two arcana points for all those advantages (and he has spells on top), and they will last through the entire combat. The monk has to spend points per round. Hence while their pools are on the same scale, they do not spend the same way. Two points for the magus and his pool is sufficient to do this for four encounters and have points left over. The monk has to spend per round, so he has to be more sparing.
The monk would be adding an additional attack at top bab, for example.
And the Monk can do that more than 4 times a day.
Which equates to four rounds a day, NOT four encounters a day. The magus is all about buffing, though, he can be buffed if not all day for the parts of it that count. To gain his buffs that don't last in terms of minutes takes only a few swift actions.
I think more realistically, we should look at normal and buffed and two separate categories.
Well that may be so for the monk, but the magus is unlikely to be un-buffed, while the monk is never going to be buffed all the time if he relies on ki.
Wisdom is more important to the monk than it is to the ranger. It is AC, Stunning Fist, and Ki.
A ranger with 14 Wisdom is fine, even at high levels. A monk with 14 wisdom is in trouble.
MA's fixes go way to far, which is part of why the Devs have kept putting this on the backburner.
Until we start asking for realistic fixes that don't make the class overpowered, they will keep putting us in the "can't be made happy" classification.
I understand. That was essentially why I was suggesting that you work towards making it less important instead of making the monk a wisdom prime class. The monk is not a caster, they should not have a prime mental statistic. I'm not saying that it isn't important, I'm saying it should be less so.
I understand. That was essentially why I was suggesting that you work towards making it less important instead of making the monk a wisdom prime class. The monk is not a caster, they should not have a prime mental statistic. I'm not saying that it isn't important, I'm saying it should be less so.Wisdom is more important to the monk than it is to the ranger. It is AC, Stunning Fist, and Ki.
A ranger with 14 Wisdom is fine, even at high levels. A monk with 14 wisdom is in trouble.
MA's fixes go way to far, which is part of why the Devs have kept putting this on the backburner.
Until we start asking for realistic fixes that don't make the class overpowered, they will keep putting us in the "can't be made happy" classification.
Now you see I hold the opposite point of view, the monk is supposed to be a spiritual warrior, so a mental stat is essential to represent this. I think it's use should be emphasised to reduce MAD rather than de-emphasised. After all, paladins are dependent on a mental stat, charisma, and it works for them.
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Looking at your Magus, his AC sucks unbuffed and you are assuming max buffs. I'm not sure which ones, but Mage armor doesn't stack with armor so it will be something he casts, taking actions in combat.
Even the swift actions of the arcane abilities are one per round, so you aren't getting them all at once, or at the beginning of combat.
The Magus you posted is fine, but the buffs aren't instant. They require rounds to activate and can't be left on. In fact, since they generally last 4 rounds each I'm not even sure they can be active at the same time.
EDIT: Not to mention one of the monks hits will be stunning at a relatively high rate of success.
The paladin makes for a bad comparison. Their ability to essentially ignore dexterity is why they can have a high mental statistic. They are still going to be a strength prime class regardless Dabbler.
Being a spiritual warrior does not mean that they will have casting stats, it simply means that they emphasize a mentally rigorous regime of training. A monk with a wisdom score of 20 should be able to embody that aesthetic.
I am not in any way suggesting that you turn wisdom into something meaningless, only that it should be a secondary statistic.
Now you see I hold the opposite point of view, the monk is supposed to be a spiritual warrior, so a mental stat is essential to represent this. I think it's use should be emphasised to reduce MAD rather than de-emphasised. After all, paladins are dependent on a mental stat, charisma, and it works for them.
Yes, monks definitely are spiritual warriors. The non-spiritual warrior is represented by the Martial Artist archetype.
But monks do not live from spirituality alone. Instead they strive to perfect their body and mind (Str, Dex, Con, Wis). So the physical attributes should not become meaningless either.But I don't think that Dabbler's changes put too much weight on Wis. IIRC Dabbler's monk can choose whether to use Str or Wis for his attack bonus. Otherwise this should be the way to go :-)
Crazy idea that I had for MAD is this, and I'm not certain how it would go over (it might be a little too complicated, which makes me think it isn't the ideal answer). And, I am not sure how to word it exactly. But here goes.
Determine your monks ability scores as normal at 1st level. For all ability score modifiers based upon Strength or Wisdom, the monk instead applies the modifier for the average of these scores (round UP) +2.
For example. A 1st level monk has a Strength of 16 and a Wisdom of 14. 16+14 = 30, divided by 2 is 15. This goes to an effective score of 17, which provides a +3 bonus on attack rolls, damage rolls, armor class, CMD (twice because Strength and Wisdom are both added for the monk), Will saves, etc., etc., etc.
Now, at 4th level, the monk increases Wisdom by +1, it becomes a 15. 16 +15 = 31, which becomes a 15.5, rounded to 16. That becomes an effective 18, giving a +4 bonus.
Same thing happens when you get a magical enhancement bonus . . . average out the two stats and then you get a slight boost onto that average.
It needs work, and like I said, I'm not sure anyone would want to do this . . . but it keeps a monk from dumping stats AND also means you don't have to take Weapon Finesse or buy a guided or agile weapon.
I don't know if it will work, but I thought I would throw it out as thinking outside the box.
MA
Crazy idea that I had for MAD is this, and I'm not certain how it would go over (it might be a little too complicated, which makes me think it isn't the ideal answer). And, I am not sure how to word it exactly. But here goes.
Determine your monks ability scores as normal at 1st level. For all ability score modifiers based upon Strength or Wisdom, the monk instead applies the modifier for the average of these scores (round UP) +2.
For example. A 1st level monk has a Strength of 16 and a Wisdom of 14. 16+14 = 30, divided by 2 is 15. This goes to an effective score of 17, which provides a +3 bonus on attack rolls, damage rolls, armor class, CMD (twice because Strength and Wisdom are both added for the monk), Will saves, etc., etc., etc.
Now, at 4th level, the monk increases Wisdom by +1, it becomes a 15. 16 +15 = 31, which becomes a 15.5, rounded to 16. That becomes an effective 18, giving a +4 bonus.
Same thing happens when you get a magical enhancement bonus . . . average out the two stats and then you get a slight boost onto that average.
It needs work, and like I said, I'm not sure anyone would want to do this . . . but it keeps a monk from dumping stats AND also means you don't have to take Weapon Finesse or buy a guided or agile weapon.
I don't know if it will work, but I thought I would throw it out as thinking outside the box.
MA
I had a thought along those lines. What would happen if you gave a monk +1/2 Dex bonus to hit and +1/2 Wis bonus to damage (with appropriate weapons of course). This would be in addition to Star rather than instead. The max benefit would probably have to be capped by class level somehow too, to prevent dipping.
But what monk would reasonably put more in Str than Wis using Dabblers build when Wis also gives you AC, Stunning Fist DC and Ki?
I'm suggesting that Dabbler is going at this backwards. Attack statistics have a clearly defined role in the game. It would be easier to modify the way wisdom works in conjunction with the ki mechanic to emulate the aesthetic warrior feel and maintain a sense of congruency with the game as it currently exists.
One of the great things about Pathfinder is that class mechanics became more standardized. Its easy to see that the monk sits outside of this standard model and its the main reason why its not working.
Don't alter the model, fix the class so that it fits the model and your class will work.
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The math would be more complicated than it is worth.
The class is mad because there is value to the class that comes form multiple different ability scores.
I think we have shown that giving enhancement bonuses to unarmed strike isn't going to be too much.
My concern is that the other suggestions seem to at minimum add complexity and often seem to add loopholes.
Okay, this just came to me. Remember the 1st edition monk? He didn't get ANY bonuses on attack and damage from a high strength. Why not do something like THIS (haven't figured out a name yet):
When using unarmed strikes or special monk weapons (see above), a monk may choose not add his Strength modifier on attack or damage rolls. Instead of relying upon brute force, a monk instead strikes intuitively, based upon his experience. Starting at 1st level, a monk gains a +1 bonus on all attack and damage rolls with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons, instead of his Strength modifier. He may instead apply his Strength modifier to attack and damage rolls if he so chooses, but he cannot apply both, nor may he split the bonuses (i.ee, using the class bonus for attacks and Strength bonus for damage). This bonus increases by +1 at 3rd level and every two levels gained thereafter, to a maximum bonus of +10 on attack rolls and damage rolls at 19th level.
Any penalty assessed to the monk because of a Strength ability score lower than 10 continues to apply.
This ability also applies to any feat or item which alters the ability score granting a bonus (or a penalty) on attack rolls or damage rolls.
This bonus on damage rolls does not increase or decrease for using a weapon with two hands or with an off-hand. Feats which increase Strength based damage do not apply when a monk is using his class based bonus on attack and damage rolls instead of Strength.
This accomplishes several things:
1. Reduces MAD, as Strength is no longer as important.
2. It keeps pace with a martial type character scaling as the monk gains experience. By 20th level, most martials will have at least a 30 in their governing ability score . . . which is a +10 bonus. So will the monk, even is his Strength is a 14 and he never increases it.
3. It is tied to monk level, so there is no worry about other classes dipping to grab it up. They can, but unless the add levels in MONK, the only get their Strength or +1 before 3rd level monk.
4. Strength buffs and magical enhancements (belts of giant strength, etc.) are no longer necessary for the monk, unless he just wants to carry more, and since penalties apply, there is a practical base minimum of 10 on Strength.
It is not as complicated as my first idea; in a way it is kind of an elegant solution to MAD. Your thoughts?
MA
Looking at your Magus, his AC sucks unbuffed and you are assuming max buffs. I'm not sure which ones, but Mage armor doesn't stack with armor so it will be something he casts, taking actions in combat.
Shield and Cat's Grace - both have a duration of several minutes so buffing in advance is acceptable when adventuring. The buffs that improve DPR are both swift actions that last several rounds. I threw him together in a hurry, is my excuse for the build being less than stellar.
Even the swift actions of the arcane abilities are one per round, so you aren't getting them all at once, or at the beginning of combat.
Sure, but you usually spend a round closing with the enemy in which you aren't full-attacking anyway. Hence for full-attacking, the numbers are going to be pretty typical.
The Magus you posted is fine, but the buffs aren't instant. They require rounds to activate and can't be left on. In fact, since they generally last 4 rounds each I'm not even sure they can be active at the same time.
EDIT: Not to mention one of the monks hits will be stunning at a relatively high rate of success.
I agree, although we haven't run the numbers on these yet. I am not saying that this damage output is going to be there all the time, just a substantial portion of it. Just as the monk's damage output could be boosted by ki.
Stunning fist doesn't increase damage output by a huge amount, what it DOES do is improve the monk's survivability by giving him a round in which the enemy doesn't attack the monk.
I suggest we do a three-round DPR test. Assume the magus is pre-buffed with his spells, and then measure damage each way against the CR10 target. We can do the magus with spell combat and without, and with 'softeners' if needed.
Edit:
@Master Arminas
That's an interesting idea. However, it fixes the monk at a low bonus at low level if he doesn't have the statistics. It looks a lot, but a character can cap out at +13 by 20th level, and this would leave the monk +3 down. Maybe splitting hairs, but look at what scores we have at various levels - Ciretose and I had scores of 22 and 24 in maxed out stats at 10th level, so that's +6 or +7 as compared to your +5. However the absolute maximum may not be available in every game... how do you judge it, between a5 point buy, 25 point buy, or dice rolling?
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MA, we aren't going back to 1st edition and I don't want this to become another unproductive brainstorming session.
I think we need to decide what the top line is. All of the builds are over the goals we set, now we need to discuss the ceiling.
I still think 75% is appropriate when you consider you can add flanking, charging, buffs, etc...This is the baseline attack at all times.
Remember the monk has more attacks than other classes, which is why it will hit less often.
I also still think the 25% is a good place to cap.
If we come up with a DPR cap, I think we have the final piece, but I don't think any of the builds are damage machines.
Which is as it should be if 1 out of 10 to one out of 4 rounds you are attacking your foe is stunned (or later, dead)
But what monk would reasonably put more in Str than Wis using Dabblers build when Wis also gives you AC, Stunning Fist DC and Ki?
One who wanted to deal damage, I would guess, which is still important. Strength builds are very effective with Dragon Style...
Of course it does make a non-strength build easier to function effectively, but that's all. It's no more anti-strength than taking Weapon Finesse, except that it doesn't cost you a feat. If you don't need strength with Wisdom-to-hit in the equation, then every monk build would be a Dexterity-build using Weapon Finesse, because one feat is a small price to pay for losing dependency on one major stat.
Stuff
Way over-complicated.
I'm suggesting that Dabbler is going at this backwards. Attack statistics have a clearly defined role in the game. It would be easier to modify the way wisdom works in conjunction with the ki mechanic to emulate the aesthetic warrior feel and maintain a sense of congruency with the game as it currently exists.
Congruency with a game that allows clerics to use wisdom to hit (Guided Hand feat) or a magus to add their Intelligence score to their to attack bonus to hit (Arcane Accuracy)?
One of the great things about Pathfinder is that class mechanics became more standardized. Its easy to see that the monk sits outside of this standard model and its the main reason why its not working.
I agree that the monk needs to be more 'standard' in class mechanics, but that would require a major overhaul of the ki mechanic to start with. Remember we are not looking at major overhauls here, but relatively small changes that can be made to the CRB text.
Don't alter the model, fix the class so that it fits the model and your class will work.
Well we need to do something that reduces MAD - that's part of the model (re, paladin). MAD is reduced by consolidating the functions of ability scores into a single score, and giving abilities that render the ability score's downside less relevant.
Hence with to hit, we have two options to resolve it: either give a flat bonus that assumes the hitting stat will be low, and risk overpowered monks that are not low, or consolidate stats in some way. I don't see what we can take from one stat and give to another other than attack bonus modifier that isn't horribly complex. There's no way I can see that we can divorce the monk from needing strength for damage (and invalidate all strength builds) or dexterity for AC (and invalidate the dexterity builds) or Con for hit points for that matter. Attack bonus is all there is left, and is the major problem as it always hinges on one score.
My concern is that the other suggestions seem to at minimum add complexity and often seem to add loopholes.
I have yet to see the loophole in Wis-to-hit, or the complexity, to be frank. It's an elegant, simple option that reduces MADness if you choose to take it.
I still think 75% is appropriate when you consider you can add flanking, charging, buffs, etc...This is the baseline attack at all times.
I think as long as we are behind the full BAB classes not employing their special 'thing' we are OK, myself. That or we need more builds at different levels.
Remember the monk has more attacks than other classes, which is why it will hit less often.
They are often doing less damage per hit than other classes too. We need to keep this in mind, because it's not the number of hits or the size of the damage but the combination of the two.
I also still think the 25% is a good place to cap.
I am not so sure. I would say around a 1/3 probability is a better cap - combats last around three rounds on average, and there's no point in an ability that only works every other combat. 25% is a good benchmark for a party foe, because then the stun swings the action economy hard against the monster - it can literally win the fight.
On the flip side, some things cannot be stunned.
If we come up with a DPR cap, I think we have the final piece, but I don't think any of the builds are damage machines.
Which is as it should be if 1 out of 10 to one out of 4 rounds you are attacking your foe is stunned (or later, dead)
I think if your foe is only stunned 1/10 times it's not going to help you much. Stunning fist needs to be work a lot more often on foes that you are facing or likely to face solo, because you need it.
That said, I put the magus DPR up as an example of what a 3/4 BAB build can churn out. If the monk can't beat that with his bonus attack, I'd say he was within the ball-park.
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Dabbler you agreed to the guidelines when we started, and your build is way over on two of them, specifically because when you make wisdom the focus it raises both the attack bonus and the save DC for Stunning fist.
We set the goalposts before we started for a reason.
Stunning every third round basically ends the combat, since the enemy becomes immobile with a minumum -2 to AC (probably much higher since you also loose dex) for a full round including your option to flurry and stun them again.
Add to that you get way over with AC and you get extra ki...the extra damage doesn't matter nearly as much. Hell, you can dump dex if you really want strength.
The wisdom swap is not going to fly.
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Stunning every third round basically ends the combat, since the enemy becomes immobile with a minumum -2 to AC (probably much higher since you also loose dex) for a full round including your option to flurry and stun them again.Just for the record:A defender who fails this saving throw is stunned for 1 round (until just before your next turn).So you can flurry and try to stun them again, but they're not stunned at that point.
Fair enough, but they are stunned for everyone else and they can't do anything until you get a flurry on them.
If we are doing DPR buffed for the Magus we would have to at minimum do DPR with a ki burnt for extra attack for the monk.
Even then, I would argue, the Magus should only be using one power they are activating on the round, as the monk.
The 10th level monk gets 4 attacks before they burn a ki point to the Magus's two. Three if they use the haste power.
If you want a 3/4 that can activate multiple powers, pick an inquisitor.
Even they need two rounds to get to full power with bane AND judgements.
At this point, we are giving the monk a +2 to hit and damage (+3 with a monk robe) at 10th level for free. They can then add additional damage with an AoMF. On top of that they get 4 attacks, bonus feats, double movement, immunity to poison, limited self healing (which we were discussing expanding) and all good saves.
I think the enhancement bonus is enough to make the monk able to hit and able to overcome DR so that Stunning fist is a threat and the monk is a threat.
That was the goal.
I'm open to modifying wholeness of body, as I agree with the concerns. And I would point out this has been core so far, so we all should be aware that Quingong trading out for slow fall means barkskin kicks the AC even higher.
The ceiling is the ceiling. We all got onto the floor.
@dabbler - What could work for a dex monk build is getting an AoMF with Agile on it.
Except you are 1 enhancement less than other caracter classes as you advance, even as you can only afford the AoMF at later levels to begin with. Hitting is the problem, so you losing at +1 potentially for hitting AND spending a feat; although your AC is higher as well. In addition, if the AoMF gets through DR based on enhancement bonus, you will need a +4 amulet (agile +3, actually) before you start to ignore cold iron and silver. And that won't happen until 15th level (if using 33% of your WBL on a single item; 14th if using 50% or 17th if using 25%).
MA
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It's called a trade off.
The AoMF is 5k, and if you make the change I proposed you can easily afford it very early on as I showed in my build.
EDIT: I believe at this point we are all on the same page about adding free enhancement bonuses at appropriate levels, and most of us do it in exchange for growing weapon damage. My fix was to add a +1 at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th)
So by that math, and assuming the monk belt modification goes to the next enhancement bonus you can get to +3 by 8th level if you have a monk robe, and then you AoMF simply has your Melee weapon bonuses (as it would do as currently written.)
You could have it by 6th level on top of the +1 you already got at 4th level.
With an inherent enhancement bonus built into the monk class, then an agile amulet is a VERY good option, I agree.
MA
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With an inherent enhancement bonus built into the monk class, then an agile amulet is a VERY good option, I agree.
MA
And this is kind of my concern with getting to cute with the "fix". There are already many synergies in the game.
With this combination, at the cost of a feat and 5k gold you can basically dump strength.
Now it is costing a feat, and at least 1d6 damage as you could have selected flaming instead, but it is an option that leads to a different, but good build.
When you keep it a simple enhancement bonus, you don't have to worry about stacking or synergies. That is part of the equation. When you start moving things like weapon specialization or stacking other abilities for free...problems.
Dabbler you agreed to the guidelines when we started, and your build is way over on two of them, specifically because when you make wisdom the focus it raises both the attack bonus and the save DC for Stunning fist.
We set the goalposts before we started for a reason.
I know that ciretose, but they were guidelines, not goalposts - at least as I understood them. If you are exceeding them in one place and falling well short in another, that's not a problem as I see it. It's all about balance.
Stunning every third round basically ends the combat, since the enemy becomes immobile with a minumum -2 to AC (probably much higher since you also loose dex) for a full round including your option to flurry and stun them again.
This is true - it's also true that if you face the monk against that CR 10 monster, the monk dies in three rounds if the monster doesn't get stunned, while the monster dies in 2-3 rounds vs the full BAB class. That's why I don't think it's broken. In fact, I think it's spot where we want it.
Add to that you get way over with AC and you get extra ki...the extra damage doesn't matter nearly as much. Hell, you can dump dex if you really want strength.
Which is what many HULKSMASH monk builds do.
The wisdom swap is not going to fly.
Yes it is. It works, it puts the monk where I think it should be: Good accuracy (just below the full BAB classes), low damage, decent effect from stunning fist. I know it's exceeding the guidelines we set in some ways, but it's way under them in others. I really don't see what's broken with it, other than it makes non-HULKSMASH-monks viable.
Sure, it rides through the goalposts on one area, but it's well below them in DPR I am happy to wager.
Tell you what, opinion that I broke the rules noted, let's put in a proviso to that effect when we mention it, and continue to crunch the numbers anyway? We may yet see it work out reasonable as I suspect we will.
@dabbler - What could work for a dex monk build is getting an AoMF with Agile on it.
Using dexterity built monks is NOT a good option to HULKSMASH-monk, it has a two-feat tax and you have to wait too long to get the amulet that evens up the damage disparity. You end up paying more resources for less result, and I really don't like that. Traditional monks as I envisage them were quick, wise and skilful, not big, slow, and bulging with muscles. I want quick and wise to be an option that doesn't come with feat and item taxes.
All that said, this idea for reducing MAD came out of another thread. Thoughts?
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The problem is you calculated the DPR buffed.
Take the monks and run the through DPR with the 5 attacks from ki and compare them to any of the Magus with one of the buffs, rather than all of the buffs.
That is a fair comparison.
As to the dex build, if you start with high dex and wisdom and take weapon finesse, you will be an unhittable stunning machine early and then for just 5k you can convert all that dex into damage.
The problem is you calculated the DPR buffed.
Because the magus is a buffing class. It will buff.
Take the monks and run the through DPR with the 5 attacks from ki and compare them to any of the Magus with one of the buffs, rather than all of the buffs.
That is a fair comparison.
No it's not, because the magus has the ability to stack his buffs and the monk does not. By all means run it over three round with the magus with one buff at first, two at second if you wish, or let the magus use spell combat to buff with spells as the combat progresses.
THAT is a fair comparison.
As to the dex build, if you start with high dex and wisdom and take weapon finesse, you will be an unhittable stunning machine early and then for just 5k you can convert all that dex into damage.
Feat Tax and poor stunning chances to be half as good as HULKSMASH-monk? No thank you. I want a viable option, not a nerfed one. I'm sticking to my guns on Wis-to-hit, I think it's the best resolution to MAD and I do not believe it is broken. The big disadvantage it has is that it will reduce damage output, which I think is a fair exchange for accuracy and stunning fist. Feat taxes and equipment costs on top of that are not.
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The magus can buff for 4 rounds at the cost of Arcane pool, which he will then be burning at a far fast rate.
If you want the all day buffs, or even the hours buffs, sure.
The per round buffs, no.
The Dex Monk would have the same attack and the same damage as unarmed strength build (minus the 1d6 from AoMF) with a much higher AC for the cost of a feat.
Trade offs.
The magus can buff for 4 rounds at the cost of Arcane pool, which he will then be burning at a far fast rate.
If you want the all day buffs, or even the hours buffs, sure.
The per round buffs, no.
Magus buffed with two effects for 4 rounds = 2 arcana. Magus can do this for four encounters a day.
Monk buffed with one effect for 4 rounds = 4 ki. Monk cannot do this for four encounters a day.Magus is paying far less for more than the monk, and that has to be factored in. Plus he can use spell combat to buff mid fight if he wants to. You just can't ignore magus buffs, like you can't ignore bardic song if we used a bard.
Like I say, run it over several rounds, you can start with the magus unbuffed if you insist.
Magus
Round #1 magus triggers weapon buff, cast's shield. (let's enemy come to him)
Round #2 magus triggers accuracy buff, casts haste as part of spell combat (melee attacks at -2).
Round #3 magus full-attacks, and uses spell combat to attack with vampiric touch, or shocking grasp, or frigid touch. Rinse & repeat.
I was trying to keep the DPR simple earlier, because I didn't want to get into the nitty-gritty of spell combat, and I wanted to be clear about what kind of damage output a magus could do to get a figure. You're trying to nerf the magus down, when the truth is the magus is going to dish hurt on a par with a full BAB class.
Monk
Round #1 monk attacks with stunning fist or maneuver.
Round #2 monk flurries, first attack is stunning fist, ki-point spent on attack or defence. Rinse & repeat.
Monster
Round #1-4 attacks as it can.
Edit: In fact, lets look up some CR10 monsters and see how they pan out on a case by case basis.
The Dex Monk would have the same attack and the same damage as unarmed strength build (minus the 1d6 from AoMF) with a much higher AC for the cost of a feat.
Trade offs.
Dex monk will have better AC, equal damage once you can afford the AoMF save for that bonus 1d6 (ie less damage all the time). Cost is two feats, as you will need Agile Maneuvers if you want to perform maneuvers as well (and what monk doesn't). Improvement in AC is maybe two or at most three points. Three points of AC and less damage for two feats and item cost...nope, sorry, been there and done that, it's too high a cost for a direction the monk should be encouraged in. All that assuming that agile is available, of course, as it's from a corner source.
Or do you want HULKSMASH-monk to remain the most viable, because I for one do not. I want equally viable options, and Wis-to-hit provides one.
Wis to hit allows better balancing of Ac vs Damage without crippling the attack bonus. It does not make speedy-monk or HULKSMASH-monk non viable, both are still as viable as they ever were. Only now there is an effective option for spiritual-monk. Spiritual monk can trade some damage and/or some AC for effective stunning fist without sacrificing attack bonus and nerfing stunning fist back again. He doesn't have the AC of speedy monk or the damage of HULSMASH monk, but he IS effective without a feat cost.
That's an option I want available.
However, lets crunch the DPR numbers and see what they say.
Sorry I have been absent for a couple of days. But it is letting me look at this with a fresh mind.
First things first. The bestiary thing.
You guys do realize those guidelines are for monsters right? A PC shouldn't be held to that standard. Monsters have different guidelines for their stats and a different purpose for being around. So while it is not bad to have minimum standards, I think we need a set based off of average non optimized PCs.
Second, personally, I think the guidelines set up are a little restrictive at this point. The monk as he is now isn't a 5th wheel, he isn't really in the game at all. So, is the goal here to make him a 5th wheel or make him capable of being one of the 4 wheels you need to play? As he is a core rule book class, I'm guessing the latter needs to be the case.
Now, there are two primarily non caster types in the game. One is combat classes, the other is skill monkeys. And yes, I am reducing it down to bare bones basics. CRB we are talking about here. So, does the monk have the skill ranks or skill list to be a skill monkey class? No. Does adding extra skill ranks help? Sure. Does adding extra class skills? Yep. The first makes sense. The second...not as much. So that leaves combat.
Based off of all the classes we have, it is reasonable to assume that a 3/4 BAB class can get up to the same to hit as a full BAB class, and that right now in the CRB the monk is a hybrid of the two. So, getting a hit rate in the same neighborhood as a fighter isn't a bad thing. In fact, it is probably a good thing, as it means we can make a fair comparison between the two. The monk shouldn't exceed the fighter, but he shouldn't be overshadowed by him either.
Same for the stunning fist DC. With the exception of the fighter, most classes have the ability to use a class ability to force a save vs a DC. Those classes can reasonably assume the usage of a limited resource won't be wasted. So I am starting to think that 25-70% efficiency on stunning fist isn't unreasonable. It is one of the main special abilities of the monk, and keeping it as a "Wow, it finally worked" ability isn't making it useful, it will lead to a player ignoring that it exists by the time they have enough uses to use it multiple rounds per combat.
So, maybe revising the goals here a little would be a good thing. Just a thought.
And Ciretose, Could you indulge me and tell me what you think a monk should bring to the table in a party of 4. Not as a 5th, but as one of the 4. I know the typical four isn't always there, but the basic party comp last I checked still assumed a similar party makeup, one full BAB, one rogue/skill monkey type, one full divine caster, one full arcane caster. Some variation exists, and it isn't always the basic classes, but that does seem to be the basic assumption for module/AP design.
Oh, and I'll put up a two handed fighter in a bit on my lunch break, since we have a tank type, lets see what a DPS type fighter looks like.
I'll knock up a paladin at some point too, to compare his non-smiting DPR against the monk. That's REAL acid test, I think.
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The guidelines were set as reasonable expectations for a party member. It is the pushing from "equal" to "better" that has caused the Devs to abandoned the discussion in the first place.
They have said they don't think they will be able to make people happy because people want a broken class. And this discussion is doing little to prove them wrong.
I think the monk I posted is as valuable to a party as the fighter you posted. If it was a straight up swap I think both parties would be equal.
The monk is more mobile by 20 feet and has 20 skill points (and no ACP at all, so even higher bonuses). Your fighter can take more damage from melee, my monk is more survivable against magic with high touch AC and improved evasion and immunity to poison. And as much as Wholeness of body could be improved, it is still 10 points of healing
Your fighter does 1d8+13 (average 17.5) my monk does 2d6+8 (average 14) with potential to stun (DC 19)
Your fighter has higher attack bonus, my monk has more attacks.
I think both of us could improve the build with non-core, but I also think the monk would improve more since I can give up the rarely useful slow fall for another +4 to AC for 100 minutes from Barkskin.
Looking at the 3 other classic members, this monk helps the rogue more since it can more easily get to flanking, makes little difference one way or another to the cleric, and for the wizard it is a wash as although the fighter can't tank as well as the fighter, it can intercept and rescue much better.
I think the monk I posted would be able to contribute to any party and in any encounter just as well as your fighter.
That was the goal.
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I'll knock up a paladin at some point too, to compare his non-smiting DPR against the monk. That's REAL acid test, I think.
I think Paladin and Ranger are a much more fair comparisons, although the monk doesn't have to exceed either given the abilities the monk does get.
I think competitive with them, or only a half step behind, is an appropriate goal.
I think Inquisitor is the true litmus test.
I'll knock up a paladin at some point too, to compare his non-smiting DPR against the monk. That's REAL acid test, I think.I think Paladin and Ranger are a much more fair comparisons, although the monk doesn't have to exceed either given the abilities the monk does get.
I think competitive with them, or only a half step behind, is an appropriate goal.
I agree. Somebody mentioned in another thread that they felt the monk was meant to be on a par with the full BAB classes, which is where this is at.
Ok, so here is a CRB only great sword fighter. Not exactly optimal, and you'd be surprised how many of the awesome 2hander feats are from APG and UC lol.
Human fighter 10
Str 24 (+ 2 race, +2 level, +2 enhancement)
Dex 14 (+2 enhancement)
Con 15 (+2 enhancement)
Int 10
Wis 12 (+2 enhancement)
Cha 8
Hit points: 99 (+10 favored class, +10 toughness)
AC: 25 (base 10 +11 armor +2 dex +1 natural +1 deflection)
Saves: +12 Fort +10 Ref +9 Will
Initiative: +6
Attacks:
+24 greatsword 2d6+17(17-20/x2)
+24/+19 greatsword 2d6+17(17-20/x2)
When power attacking:
+21 greatsword 2d6+26(17-20/x2)
+21/+19 greatsword 2d6+26(17-20/x2)
May make a single attack to double rolled damage using Vital Strike.
May take a -2 to hit to extend reach for 1 turn
May use a standard action to attack with Cleave.
Class abilities: weapon training (heavy blades +2, bows +1), armor training 2, bravery +3
Magic Items (62,000 gold)
+3 greatsword
+2 full plate
+2 belt of physical perfection
+2 headband of inspired wisdom
+3 cloak of resistance
+1 amulet of natural armor
+1 ring of protection
5000 gold remaining for other equipment and consumables.
Sooooo...
Not close to an optimized two handed fighter. And...none of our monks come close to his DPR potential. Before he power attacks.
I don't think any of us have gone to far, hopefully this shows had far the gap still is. Maybe we can worry less about doing more DPR than a DPR fighter now that we have a (not well optimized) baseline?
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Ok, so where would that put us with a Paladin or ranger?
I would say attack bonus for the fighter is 22, but that included the Fighter only feats. So Paladin is 20, or possibly lower due to needing to invest in Charisma. But that would be for two attacks only.
Ranger has the same secondary investment issues, but can TWF. So TWF we are down to 18 (-2 on all attacks) assuming two +1 weapons and the ranger being able to get to 22 Str...
The Monk I posted is righter there, with a weapon that goes through more DR and does 1d6 extra damage.
Yay double posting!!!
Well, I can do up a ranger and an inquisitor if you like. Really slow day at work. I don't think the inquisitor is going to be a pretty comparison. Also, I have been sticking to core, and not counting any buffs, even ones from a potion. I think that provides a better picture, but for the ranger and inquisitor, you want me to add in 10 min/level and longer buffs on combat stats?
And for the inquisitor, it'll be core+APG unless you think just CRB would be a better comparison.
And yes, I agree, the point isn't to overpower the monk. But as it stands, the monks we have are behind the fighters in every way. If they end up behind the paladin, the ranger, and the inquisitor, then we need to add something, because 1 of those classes is a solid replacement fighter, another is a solid fighter or rogue replacement, and the other can make a solid fighter, rogue or divine caster replacement.
Right now the monks only viable substitution is for a fighter, and he is lacking there, even with the bumps we have done.
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Ok, so here is a CRB only great sword fighter. Not exactly optimal, and you'd be surprised how many of the awesome 2hander feats are from APG and UC lol.
** spoiler omitted **
Sooooo...
Not close to an optimized two handed fighter. And...none of our monks come close to his DPR potential. Before he power attacks.
I don't think any of us have gone to far, hopefully this shows had far the gap still is. Maybe we can worry less about doing more DPR than a DPR fighter now that we have a (not well optimized) baseline?
Yes, but what is the real gap? Full Power attack is two attacks at +21 and +17, so you hit 85% (4 or higher) on the first and 60% on the 2nd.
Average damage is 2d6 +26, or 32. So you do 46.4 damage a round (85% of 32+ 60% of 32)
The monk I posted does 2d6 +9 (1d6 + 5 str, +3 enhancement) for a total of 16. It hits 60% on the first two and 35 on the last two.
So 30 DPR on a Flurry, a difference of 16.4, or basically one attack.
Now on top of this, the monk can attempt a stun on the first attack at a 25% success rate on a hit for a high save, or 50% success rate on a low save.
And the monk can burn a ki for that extra attack.
So, with the addition of the enhancement, is the gap that far?
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Another way to look at it is max damage.
The Max damage a your fighter could do in a round is 76 (Two attacks, max 38)
The Max damage the monk I posted could do in a single round is 84 (Four times 21)
Now most times your fighter will out damage my monk. But my monk will stun between 1 in 10 and 1 in 4 times if I use stun on the first attack (which I probably would considering how many I have a day) and can make an additional attack to take that max damage to 105 (which I might since I have a lot of ki), or I might instead bump my ac by 4 if I am going to be stuck standing in front of this thing for a round.
As a monk I have options the fighter doesn't. So I don't need to do as much damage. Frankly, I would be outshining the fighter if I did. I need to be able to do something every round. And with the change I put in, thanks to the +3 to attack that bypasses DR, I can.
So when you ask what my monk is going to do relative to the fighters you posted, my answer is "The same things, only in a different way.
OK, here's a paladin build for DPR comparison:
Male Human Paladin 10
LG Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +0; Senses Perception +5
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Defense
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AC 24, touch 11, flat-footed 24 (+12 armor, +1 natural, +1 deflection)
hp 94 (10d10+20)
Fort +14, Ref +9, Will +13
Immune charm, fear, disease
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Offense
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Speed 20 ft.
Melee +3 Falchion +21/+16 (2d4+13/15-20/x2) or Power Attack for +21/+13 (2d4+22/15-20/x2)and
. . Gauntlet (from Armor) +17/+12 (1d3+7/x2) and
. . Unarmed strike +17/+12 (1d3+7/x2)
Ranged Masterwork Composite longbow (Str +7) +11/+6 (1d8+7/x3)
Special Attacks Smite Evil (4/day)
Spell-Like Abilities Detect Evil (At will)
Paladin Spells Prepared (CL 7, 17 melee touch, 10 ranged touch):
3 (1/day) Dispel Magic
2 (2/day) Resist Energy (DC 16), Weapon of Awe (DC 16)
1 (3/day) Protection from Evil (DC 15), Grace, Hero's Defiance
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Statistics
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Str 20/24, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 16/18
Base Atk +10; CMB +17; CMD 28
Feats Extra Lay on Hands, Furious Focus, Improved Critical (Falchion), Power Attack -3/+6, Toughness +10, Weapon Focus (Falchion)
Traits Armor Expert, Divine Warrior
Skills Acrobatics -4 (-8 jump), Climb +3, Diplomacy +10, Escape Artist -4, Fly -4, Handle Animal +8, Heal +4, Knowledge (nobility) +3, Knowledge (religion) +3, Perception +5, Ride +0, Sense Motive +8, Spellcraft +4, Stealth -4, Swim +3
Languages Common
SQ Aura of Courage +4 (10' radius), Aura of Good, Aura of Resolve +4 (10' radius), Divine Weapon +2 (10 minutes) (2/day), Lay on Hands (5d6) (11/day), Mercy: Fatigued, Mercy: Poisoned, Mercy: Sickened, Quick runner's shirt (1/day)
Combat Gear +3 Falchion, +3 Full plate, Masterwork Composite longbow (Str +7); Other Gear Amulet of natural armor +1, Belt of giant strength +4, Cloak of resistance +2, Headband of alluring charisma +2, Quick runner's shirt (1/day), Ring of protection +1, Wand of cure light wounds
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Special Abilities
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Armor Expert -1 Armor check penalty.
Aura of Courage +4 (10' radius) (Su) You are immune to Fear. Allies within aura gain a morale bonus to saves vs Fear.
Aura of Good (Ex) The paladin has an Aura of Good with power equal to her class level.
Aura of Resolve +4 (10' radius) (Su) You are immune to charm. Allies within aura gain a morale bonus to saves vs charm.
Detect Evil (At will) (Sp) You can use Detect Evil at will (as the spell).
Divine Warrior +1 melee weapon damage when you cast a divine spell that affects weapons.
Divine Weapon +2 (10 minutes) (2/day) (Sp) Weapon shines with light and gains enhancement bonuses or chosen properties.
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
Immune to Charm You are immune to charm effects.
Immune to Fear (Ex) You are immune to all fear effects.
Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
Lay on Hands (5d6) (11/day) (Su) You can heal 5d6 damage, 11/day
Mercy: Fatigued (Su) When you use your lay on hands ability, it also removes the fatigued condition.
Mercy: Poisoned (Su) When you use your lay on hands ability, it also neutralizes poisons, as per the neutralize poison spell at a caster level of your Paladin level.
Mercy: Sickened (Su) When you use your lay on hands ability, it also removes the sickened condition.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Quick runner's shirt (1/day) As swift action, take an extra move action to move on your turn.
Smite Evil (4/day) (Su) +4 to hit, +10 to damage, +4 deflection bonus to AC when used.
So, ignoring smite evil, if we are power attacking our AC 24 target (no reason not to), our paladin will hit for: +21/+13 (2d4+22/15-20/x2). So hitting 90%/50% for average 27 damage, x1.3 for critical chances = 1.4 x 1.3 x 27 = 49.14. Pretty good, solid damage output. If he used his weapon bond he would hit for +23/+15 for 95%/60% for average 29 damage gives us DPR of 58.435.
Now looking at my original Wis-to-hit monk build:
Human Monk 10
LG Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +3; Senses Perception +20
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Defense
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AC 27, touch 22, flat-footed 24 (+3 armor, +3 Dex, +2 natural)
hp 73 (10d8+20)
Fort +10, Ref +12, Will +16; +2 vs. enchantment
Defensive Abilities Evasion, Improved Evasion; Immune disease
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Offense
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Speed 60 ft.
Melee Dagger +9/+4 (1d4+2/19-20/x2) and
. . Masterwork Kama +15/+10 (1d6+2/x2) and
. . Unarmed strike +18/+13 (2d6+2/19-20/x2) (FoB +19/+19/+14/+14)
Ranged +1 Light crossbow +11/+6 (1d8+1/19-20/x2)
Special Attacks Flurry of Blows +8/+8/+3/+3, Ki Strike +3
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Statistics
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Str 14, Dex 14/16, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 20/24, Cha 8
Base Atk +7; CMB +20 (+22 Grappling, +22 Tripping); CMD 34 (36 vs. Grapple, 40 vs. Trip)
Feats Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round), Improved Critical (Unarmed strike), Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Monk Weapon Proficiencies, Snake Fang, Snake Sidewind, Snake Style, Stunning Fist (11/day) (DC 22), Toughness +10, Weapon Focus (Unarmed strike)
Traits Poverty-Stricken, Vagabond Child (urban) (Disable Device)
Skills Acrobatics +16 (+28 jump, +26 to jump), Climb +12, Disable Device +16, Escape Artist +7, Knowledge (history) +5, Knowledge (religion) +5, Perception +20, Ride +7, Sense Motive +22, Stealth +16, Survival +12, Swim +6
Languages Common
SQ AC Bonus +9, Antitoxin, Fast Movement (+30'), High Jump (+10/+30 with Ki point), Ki Defense, Ki Pool, Maneuver Training, Purity of Body, Quick runner's shirt (1/day), Slow Fall 50', Still Mind, Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sicken), Unarmed Strike (2d6), Wholeness of Body (10 HP/use)
Combat Gear +1 Light crossbow, Dagger, Masterwork Kama; Other Gear Acid (2), Alchemist's fire (3), Alkali flask (2), Amulet of natural armor +2, Antitoxin, Belt of incredible dexterity +2, Bracers of armor +3, Bullseye lantern, waterproof, Chalk, Climber's kit, Cloak of resistance +2, Crowbar, Everburning torch, Grappling hook, Handy haversack (34 @ 89.14 lbs), Headband of inspired wisdom +4, Monk's robe, Paper, Pot, Quick runner's shirt (1/day), Scroll case (empty), Sealing wax, Sewing needle, Shovel, Silk rope, Sunrod (5), Tea ceremony set, Thieves' tools, masterwork, Thread (50 ft.), Trail rations (3), Waterskin
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Special Abilities
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AC Bonus +9 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Antitoxin This substance counteracts a specific toxin. If you drink a vial of antitoxin, you gain a +5 alchemical bonus on Fortitude saving throws against poison for 1 hour.
Alchemical Power Component
Like antiplague, this substance can augment certain healing spells.
Neutralize Poison (M): Add +2 on your caster level check to neutralize poison on a target creature. Antitoxin has no effect when you cast the spell on an object.
Blind-Fight Re-roll misses because of concealment, other benefits.
Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Movement (+30') The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
Flurry of Blows +8/+8/+3/+3 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full action.
High Jump (+10/+30 with Ki point) (Ex) +10 to Acrobatics checks made to jump.
Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
Improved Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead. If you fail you take half damage.
Improved Grapple You grapple at +2, with no attacks of opportunity allowed.
Improved Trip You Trip at +2 and don't cause an attack of opportunity.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Ki Strike, Lawful (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as lawful to overcome DR.
Ki Strike, +3 (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as magic +3 to hit & overcome DR.
Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
Purity of Body (Ex) At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
Quick runner's shirt (1/day) As swift action, take an extra move action to move on your turn.
Slow Fall 50' (Ex) Treat a fall as shorter than normal if within arm's reach of a wall.
Snake Fang If opponent misses you, make an attack of opportunity as an immediate action
Snake Sidewind Gain a bonus to avoid being knocked prone, and use Sense Motive check to confirm critical hits
Snake Style Gain +2 on Sense Motive checks, and deal piercing damage with unarmed attacks
Still Mind (Ex) +2 to saves against enchantment spells and effects.
Stunning Fist (11/day) (DC 22) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sicken) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Unarmed Strike (2d6) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Wholeness of Body (10 HP/use) (Su) Self-heal monk level in damage for 2 Ki points.
Now this monk is hitting for: +19/+19/+14/+14 (2d6+2/19-20/x2), so this works out to 80%/80%/55%/55% at average 9 damage per hit and x1.1 for criticals. That gives us 2.7 x 9 x 1.1 = 26.73 DPR.
Edit: with bonus attack from ki, 34.65 DPR.
So as I suspected, while this monk has great odds on stunning fist, his damage output is low. Against a stunned foe this rises to 33.66 DPR. If the monk stuns on the first attack, this number represents the additional damage the rest of the attack will do with a bonus attack. Initial damage will be 7.92 damage from the attack that stunned.
Looking at the 'fixed unarmed strike with weapon training' monk:
Human Monk 10
LG Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +3; Senses Perception +20
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Defense
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AC 27, touch 22, flat-footed 24 (+3 armor, +3 Dex, +2 natural)
hp 73 (10d8+20)
Fort +10, Ref +12, Will +16; +2 vs. enchantment
Defensive Abilities Evasion, Improved Evasion; Immune disease
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Offense
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Speed 60 ft.
Melee Dagger +9/+4 (1d4+2/19-20/x2) and
. . Masterwork Kama +17/+12 (1d6+4/x2) and
. . Unarmed strike +20/+15 (1d6+5/19-20/x2) (FoB +20/+20/+15/+15)
Ranged +1 Light crossbow +11/+6 (1d8+1/19-20/x2)
Special Attacks Flurry of Blows +7/+7/+2/+2, Ki Strike +3
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Statistics
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Str 14, Dex 14/16, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 20/24, Cha 8
Base Atk +7; CMB +20 (+22 Grappling, +22 Tripping); CMD 34 (36 vs. Grapple, 40 vs. Trip)
Feats Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round), Improved Critical (Unarmed strike), Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Monk Weapon Proficiencies, Snake Fang, Snake Sidewind, Snake Style, Stunning Fist (11/day) (DC 22), Toughness +10, Weapon Focus (Unarmed strike)
Traits Poverty-Stricken, Vagabond Child (urban) (Disable Device)
Skills Acrobatics +16 (+28 jump, +26 to jump), Climb +12, Disable Device +16, Escape Artist +7, Knowledge (history) +5, Knowledge (religion) +5, Perception +20, Ride +7, Sense Motive +22, Stealth +16, Survival +12, Swim +6
Languages Common
SQ AC Bonus +9, Antitoxin, Fast Movement (+30'), High Jump (+10/+30 with Ki point), Ki Defense, Ki Pool, Maneuver Training, Purity of Body, Quick runner's shirt (1/day), Slow Fall 50', Still Mind, Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sicken), Unarmed Strike (2d6), Wholeness of Body (10 HP/use)
Combat Gear +1 Light crossbow, Dagger, Masterwork Kama; Other Gear Acid (2), Alchemist's fire (3), Alkali flask (2), Amulet of natural armor +2, Antitoxin, Belt of incredible dexterity +2, Bracers of armor +3, Bullseye lantern, waterproof, Chalk, Climber's kit, Cloak of resistance +2, Crowbar, Everburning torch, Grappling hook, Handy haversack (34 @ 89.14 lbs), Headband of inspired wisdom +4, Monk's robe, Paper, Pot, Quick runner's shirt (1/day), Scroll case (empty), Sealing wax, Sewing needle, Shovel, Silk rope, Sunrod (5), Tea ceremony set, Thieves' tools, masterwork, Thread (50 ft.), Trail rations (3), Waterskin
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Special Abilities
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AC Bonus +9 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Antitoxin This substance counteracts a specific toxin. If you drink a vial of antitoxin, you gain a +5 alchemical bonus on Fortitude saving throws against poison for 1 hour.
Alchemical Power Component
Like antiplague, this substance can augment certain healing spells.
Neutralize Poison (M): Add +2 on your caster level check to neutralize poison on a target creature. Antitoxin has no effect when you cast the spell on an object.
Blind-Fight Re-roll misses because of concealment, other benefits.
Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Movement (+30') The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
Flurry of Blows +8/+8/+3/+3 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full action.
High Jump (+10/+30 with Ki point) (Ex) +10 to Acrobatics checks made to jump.
Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
Improved Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead. If you fail you take half damage.
Improved Grapple You grapple at +2, with no attacks of opportunity allowed.
Improved Trip You Trip at +2 and don't cause an attack of opportunity.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Ki Strike, Lawful (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as lawful to overcome DR.
Ki Strike, +3 (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as magic +3.
Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
Purity of Body (Ex) At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
Quick runner's shirt (1/day) As swift action, take an extra move action to move on your turn.
Slow Fall 50' (Ex) Treat a fall as shorter than normal if within arm's reach of a wall.
Snake Fang If opponent misses you, make an attack of opportunity as an immediate action
Snake Sidewind Gain a bonus to avoid being knocked prone, and use Sense Motive check to confirm critical hits
Snake Style Gain +2 on Sense Motive checks, and deal piercing damage with unarmed attacks
Still Mind (Ex) +2 to saves against enchantment spells and effects.
Stunning Fist (11/day) (DC 22) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sicken) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Unarmed Strike (2d6) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Weapon Training The monk gains +2 to hit and damage with monk weapons and unarmed strikes
Wholeness of Body (10 HP/use) (Su) Self-heal monk level in damage for 2 Ki points.
So for this monk's attacks we are looking at: +20/+20/+15/+15 (1d6+5/19-20/x2). That yields 85%/85%/60%/60% at 8.5 average damage. x1.1 for critical hits. So 2.9 x 8.5 x 1.1 = 27.115 DPR
Edit: with bonus attack from ki, 35.0625 DPR
Again, odds to hit high, stunning odds high, but DPR is low. This monk needs good stunning and maneuver odds to keep his enemy off-balance so he can wear down their HP. Against a stunned foe this rises to 32.725 DPR, with ki, with +7.9475 DPR from the blow that stuns.