Shorter SuperSlayer: "If I ignore or refuse to use all the ways I can do Pathfinder on the cheap, it's really super expensive!"
Alrighty then.
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Of course, RPGs have to cost someone money.
Some people can do it for free by digging into the free resources but if everyone did that then companies like Paizo wouldn't exist and it would be all homebrew.
Of course, some people would be happy with this but some of us don't have time or the talent. In a way I'm not buying RPGs from Paizo per se; I'm buying time and talent from Paizo.
It's okay though, I'm cool with 3.5loyalist sponging off my pounds and pence.
I will run you a great game man, I just don't like buying backpacks and shelves of rpg books anymore.
Don't need to buy much, or anything if you get inventive, but consumers in consumerdom are gonna consume.
Yeeeep, pdfs are pretty cool.
I remember the days of AD&D when I could walk into a hobby shop and get a good adventure module for $15 bucks.
Heehee, this still has me giggling - especially with the dismissive references to Slumbering Tsar and Rappan Athuk as the $100 "adventure" or "module" - but I have an honest question:
Back in the days of AD&D, when you could walk into a hobby shop and get a good adventure module for $15 (which we can still do today), were there even such things available like the 952-page Slumbering Tsar or the 672-page Rappan Athuk?
Because I certainly don't remember any tomes like that.
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It would not surprise me at all if the smaller rpg companies take a look at what the bigger charge for their books imo. If White wolf or Wotc can charge 35-40$ for one of their books. Why should the smaller companies sell theirs cheaper. If the majorirty of the fanbase imo is willing to spend the money why should companies sell their books cheaper and possibly at a loss because some in the hobby want to get the books at the prices of 5 or even 10 years ago. Even then I remember the D&D books still being more expensive than everyone else. So more expensive books are not even something remotely new imo.
I like being able to carry everything I need in my iPad.
I used to be an unbeliever, but I have to admit I saw the light when I got the SRD for the iPad.
I still put the harcovers on the table (to me, they add a sense of style that I just cannot picture roleplaying games without), but having the iPad with stuff like the complete SRD, initiative trackers, character sheets, iTunes for the background music and whatnot, has allowed me to completely remove the DM's screen from the table (I like the idea of the screen, but I dislike how it breaks the space between the players and me) while not having to depend on invasive laptops.
I do continue to write my adventures by hand and draw all the maps I use with pen and paper, however. I don't think I'll ever be able to stop doing that.
I think eventually tablets will truly change how we play rpgs. I expect some time in the near future adventures will be designed for tablets, link 5 ipads or kindle fires or whatever wirelessly, and interact like a remote tabletop application does now, but at the table, with a big virtual tabletop in the middle for the 'board'. The technology is there now, and most people will have them in the next few years. I just cant imagine apps not taking up this significant niche with what are usually tech savy people (gamers).
Tablets aren't cheap, but I get a ton of use out of mine. Plus it's saved me probably $150 so far on book costs, just for Pathfinder.
We have a remote player that connects with MapTool and Skype, so I use my laptop with an attached monitor as a GM tool. One screen shows MapTool, and the other screen has the adventure PDF, plus a web browser with tabs set to our campaign website, several tabs to the PRD, and one to our Google Docs site.
I usually type out my modifications to the adventure (I have to scale up an AP for 6 PCs), and I usually print that out and put it in a 3-ring binder.
So... The tech I use is expensive, but I would be using it anyway. I do usually buy supplemental gaming materials on PDF (i.e. Campaign Guides), but I like the actual rulebooks in hardcover.
Looking back at the gaming books of yore... The first edition AD&D books were all black-and-white, and printed on non-glossy paper (that absorbed spilled Coke very easily!) The art was all black-and-white line drawings and of "talented amateur" in quality. I mean, three quarters of the the stuff you now see on Deviant Art is much better than the artwork in the original three AD&D hardcovers! Also, the printing itself was in a tough to read font and of inconsistent typesetting. I'd say that the physical quality of today's gaming books is at least twice that of their 1st Edition counterparts.
Now, let's adjust for inflation...
I remember buying the Player's Handbook in 1981 for $15 at my local bookstore. According to an online inflation calculator, that's $36.50 in 2011 dollars. The $20 DMG converts to $49. So, in 1981, to buy the equivalent of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook, you'd have to outlay the equivalent of today's $85! Paizo sets an MSRP of $49 for a book that's at least twice the quality-- and you can find a bargain retailer that sells it for $32.
In other words, in real dollars, gaming is less expensive now than it's ever been!
Ugghhh enough about Inflation we're aware of that! People are starting to sound like broken records about Inflation in this thread. No need to repeat what others have said 100 times before. I prefer books myself and will probably quit tabletop gaming when they stop making the books. I'll just resort to video game RPG's when those days are gone forever.
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Ugghhh enough about Inflation we're aware of that! People are starting to sound like broken records about Inflation in this thread. No need to repeat what others have said 100 times before.
Um...
This was a thread you started! People are simply trying to point out that it is an unrealistic expectation to think gaming books should be the same price they were a decade or more ago...
I prefer books myself and will probably quit tabletop gaming when they stop making the books.
Why would you quite gaming altogether if no more new books were being produced? I mean, if you've been gaming since the early 90's, you no doubt have a substantial collection of gaming material. I know that in my 30 years of gaming (and collecting), that if were to stop buying gaming material tomorrow, I could continue to game for the rest of my life and never run out of material to use...
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Ugghhh enough about Inflation we're aware of that! People are starting to sound like broken records about Inflation in this thread. No need to repeat what others have said 100 times before. I prefer books myself and will probably quit tabletop gaming when they stop making the books. I'll just resort to video game RPG's when those days are gone forever.
So sorry that nobody agrees with you. :(
Ugghhh enough about Inflation we're aware of that! People are starting to sound like broken records about Inflation in this thread. No need to repeat what others have said 100 times before. I prefer books myself and will probably quit tabletop gaming when they stop making the books. I'll just resort to video game RPG's when those days are gone forever.So sorry that nobody agrees with you. :(
My point was to read the thread before you post because people keep repeating themselves. Also, frankly I don't give a dang if you don't agree with me and nobody will change me so it's pointless to even try really. Have a great day.
So why exactly did you start the thread?
I wanted to get people's opinions and thoughts on tabletop RPG game prices at the moment. Is that a crime?
Just seemed weird to post for other people's opinions if you don't care about them and will never change your mind.
I've read all posts on this thread. I'm sorry if it is not going as you have planned. Sometimes life just isn't fair is it?
What plan are you talking about? And how is this unfair to me?
I don't know you tell me.
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I will run you a great game man, I just don't like buying backpacks and shelves of rpg books anymore.
Don't need to buy much, or anything if you get inventive, but consumers in consumerdom are gonna consume.
See, I don't get this.
If I buy stuff from Paizo I'm a sucker who has been inculcated into a consumer culture and can't help myself, unlike the superior and enlightened 3.5 loyalist?
Say it ain't so!
Ok-- ignoring this thread from now on.
Ok-- ignoring this thread from now on.
Any reason why besides just being a hater?
Probably because he doesn't have any interest in discussing it with you.
You don't even know me pal.
What does that have to do with him? Or anything?
Be gone with you pest.
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What does that have to do with him? Or anything?Be gone with you pest.
You don't realize it yet, but you aren't having the conversation you think you are having.
You don't realize it yet, but you aren't having the conversation you think you are having.What does that have to do with him? Or anything?Be gone with you pest.
One thing is for sure, reality is stranger than fiction.
One thing is for sure, reality is stranger than fiction.You don't realize it yet, but you aren't having the conversation you think you are having.What does that have to do with him? Or anything?Be gone with you pest.
Like when people ask for something, then become antagonistic when others give it to them?
More on topic, there are also a lot of cheap or free games out there. They don't have the splat books or adventures, but most of the time all you need to do is buy your dice, paper and pencils.
I know people whose hobby it is to design their own games, that they then play. I've even helped a friend do this, and while the game is free, the 219d6 I own that are required to play were not free (except for the 2 that someone gave me for free).
I'd like to note how apropos one's avatar is to their meltdown.
Thanks for playing.
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RPG books - Still not as expensive as getting into Games Workshop Miniatures.
People who play Warhammer and complain about being poor . . . The W.H. bit just explained why they have money problems.
As I merely play Pathfinder, the only cost to me is gas to get to the GM's house and time. Even if I were to run it, all the rules are on this site or the prfd20 wiki.
Likewise, I've written my own game which I run and also own plenty of old game books which still work :)
In the spirit of budget gaming, I thought this was real interesting...
Also, there are other online purveyors of books like DriveThruRPG.com or IPR.
You can get a new printed version of a lot of games for very reasonable prices. Some even offer print/pdf/print+pdf if ever you do change your mind.
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People who play Warhammer and complain about being poor . . . The W.H. bit just explained why they have money problems.
This one always rubs me wrong - "Miniature Wargaming" in general is/can be expensive, period.
GW prices are certainly premimum, and in general, have one of the highest starts costs - BUT, once you factor in paints, tools, terrain (and the costs of materials to manufacter it), storage, army flexibility and options, gaming space, and travel if you need to get to a club or store and especially if you're playing competitively and the costs add up quickly - and they stay there.
Several of the regular top tier podcasts and blogs have done startup and extended play cost breakdowns across several games like Warhammer/40K, Infinity, Flames of War, Malifaux, Warmachine/Hordes, Dystopian Wars, etc., and in the end they are all "expensive".
As the size of many of these games creep up towards army scale, they are rapidly approaching parity with paying for GW Games.
As it seems appropo for this topic, I can also tell you that (as a superscriber) several times a year, my monthly Paizo RPG costs exceed my monthly 40K and Flames of War costs. In that regard, I could say that anyone that is a superscriber has explained their money problems ;)
While I agree with you VagrantWhisper, that it *can* be costly to play wargames, I will always stand by the fact that the high cost is a choice not a requirement. I have played Warhammer with paper minis that cost me less for a whole army then one commander figure cost my friend. We had a blast and my cost in was not even close to his.
Same goes for the other games you listed. We, as gamers, often make it sound as f we have no choice. But we do. No one forces us to buy all the costly books and support stuff. There are options out there for the gamer on a budget. :-)
Why not try a book?
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While I agree with you VagrantWhisper, that it *can* be costly to play wargames, I will always stand by the fact that the high cost is a choice not a requirement. I have played Warhammer with paper minis that cost me less for a whole army then one commander figure cost my friend. We had a blast and my cost in was not even close to his.
Same goes for the other games you listed. We, as gamers, often make it sound as f we have no choice. But we do. No one forces us to buy all the costly books and support stuff. There are options out there for the gamer on a budget. :-)
I agree completely - I probably should have prefaced with the fact that most miniature wargames are expensive because of venue and "community".
By this I mean, officially sanctioned events, clubs or store venues generally have a minimum percentage requirement of models or terrain to be from the manufacturer - ie., Flames of War has a 50% models must be Battlefront at official events. Games Workshop and Privateer Press, generally doesn't allow proxying at official events, but like most things it depends. If you're a beer and pretzels garage gamer, then complaining about the high cost of wargaming is generally a personal problem.
Having said that though, I think the more appropriate point that I think we both agree on is that most hobbies, wargaming included, are as expensive as you want them to be.
I play Battlefleet Gothic with paper tokens, a black sheet, rocks from the garden and cotton balls ;)
** As an aside, I'm also a believer that when you break down the "Total Hobby" of wargaming; ie., painting, modelling, gaming, socializing, etc., the cost per hour, even for an expensive game, is actually really low. Much the same as an RPG, a $40 book can go a long, long way.